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Hello DakkaDakka

Just recently I played my first two games in over 12 years. I have collected a series of questions that I'm hoping more recently experienced Warbosses can answer for me. They cover a wide range of topics, from modern tactics that might change the direction of which models I build, to minor annoyances which I'm sure don't have good answers, but some closure would be nice.

I played two games at the Toronto Games Workshop 100th store party. If anybody posting here is from Toronto or was there, say hi

Last game I played was in 4th edition, which for those of you that remember was essentially 3rd edition with all of it's patches wrapped up in one place. One thing I've noticed between now and then is that the game feels like it has a strong rock-paper-scissors element to it.

I don't really need to go into the details of my army list, because it was made up of all the models that I have assembled and painted up to my current standards, so whatevs, that'll all change over the course of this year as more stuff gets pumped out. Suffice to say, it was 1000 points and I was playing a green horde. First game was against Imperial Guard, who had two Wyverns. So a 1000 point game effectively ended on turn one as a result of the firepower from 130 points. Second game was against Sphess Mareens, some variant that allowed his whole army to deepstrike via jumppack. I deployed my army out in such a way that if he landed close, he'd die, if he landed far, he would be wasting time, and if he landed in the middle, which he did, I only needed one turn to be on him. Much like the last game, it was over before it started; the tide wrapped around him and swallowed the ~30 marines with minimal losses.

So while it was fun to get my minions out on the table and face off against people, I couldn't help but feel that this dice-rolling game has become a metaphorical dice-rolling game. Which list did you bring? Which list are you up against? In the past (shut it, you geezer) I feel like even if an OP codex was up against something sub-tier, the game would still actually tease people into thinking they could win; there was always an element of attrition and give-and-take. Now, there is a bit of 2nd edition feel to this (Oops, Pulsa Rokkit destroyed the bunker complex half of your army was hiding in, gg!) as in strength has been taken out of core army choices and given to random OP units based on... who knows what.

So now it's obvious that my first question is really a complaint in disguise, but I still feel the need to asK: Am I being a grumpy old fart, or am I seeing things clearly? Is this the way that things are going, or is there some major element of meta-game that myself and any for-fun players are missing?


Next, a bunch of small stuff regarding the new ork 'dex:. I get this feeling that with the Dex, as compared to the 3rd and 4th ed Dex' (Errr... 2nd is wacky AF), they rushed it and didn't really put as much critical thought into it.

- K. mega-slugga is 10 points, K. mega-blasta is 5. Why would I ever take the slugga?

- I get a Mek with each HQ choice, does that mean for each HQ in my list, I get the option for an additional Mek, or does that mean for each slot, filled or not, on my org chart I get to have a Mek? (Example: Ork Horde Detach (3HQ slots) I'll take a Warboss and and a Big Mek. Does this mean I am able to have 2 or 3 Meks?)

- No Big shoota in the mek weapons list. Is consensus that that was a mistake? I can't see why they would remove it.

- Why would I attach a Mek to a Big Gunz mob?

- Grot Orderlies: "Allows a painboy's unit to re-roll a single feel no pain roll" This wording is terrible. Is this a roll for a "Single" model? Or all the failed rolls in a single "unit"? I would lean towards the latter since you can only buy one Orderly, where the mek can buy three oilers. If it's the former, then that's weirdly lopsided.

- Squighounds: Does anybody use them? Seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

- Grotpods: As pointless as I assume?

- Powerklaws: IS anything stopping me from giving a warboss 2x Powerklaws to get the extra specialist attack?

- BIG Meks: The options list looks like a mess. Big Mek in mega armor can replace his KMB with a Kill saw... beside his PK... Are they sure they meant to do that, especially given that in the Meganobz squad you can take paired Kill saws. Why are they taking this sweet sweet speacialist weapon attack away and making the model less fluffy. Stupid. I'm pulling my hair out as I type this.

- I just want to make sure I'm reading this right: I can put a Big Mek on a warbike, with a Killsaw and either a KFF or SAG... oui?

- Any reason why I *wouldn't* use the Ork Horde Detachment?

- Any reason why Stormboyz can't run with the normal rules in lieu of using their rokkit packs?

- Ammo runts in Big Gunz: Are they dedicated to a specific gun? When firing a barrage, is an Ammo runt allowed to be used to reroll any shots after the first?

- Just want to double check: Transport battlewagons appear to be able to take killkannons now, correct?



Lastly, some housekeeping. When I create a P&M blog, should I put photos of finished, painted models in there or into a P&M showcase thread? If so, that will basically make two blogs if I keep returning to the same showcase thread. Is that the proper etiquette here?


Thanks lads.

-kustom mega slugga gives +1 attack for 2 weapon bonus, its also what the new mek standalone model is modeled with.

-a mek for each HQ you take

-They also removed burnas, making my Big Mek modeled wrong GW is just a bunch of ork-hating umies.

-No reason to take mek, just take extra grots so you can still fire the guns

-you get to reroll a single failed dice for FNP. Once, and then the grot is removed. Stupid right? Thats orks :(

-if you aren't using grots to bubblewrap a shokk attack gun Big Mek than yea, I take squighounds for the leadership. You don't want grots running off the objectives they camp.

-I just modeled the grot pods because they looked cooler but yea they're pointless

-2 power fists do not grant extra attacks.

-Keep in mind you can put a killsaw mek in a squad of tankbustas to give the killsaw tankhunter >

-yes mobile KFF is good. SAG on a bike is hilarious because you have relentless as well, makes for a fun unit.

-Because it requires 3 troop choices doesn't it? Not many people are a fan of Boyz spam currently as they're pretty weak.

-no you can still run with stormboyz

-big guns are squads, the runts are for any gun in the squad

-killkannons don't effect transport capacity unless its on a looted wagon

Yes, the ork codex is pretty bad. They're still fun, and it does allow for some fun shenanigans, but don't expect to do well against tau or any super competitive list. Remember, put reinforced rams on every vehicle in your army. I am a fan of putting my entire ork horde in battlewagons with a big mek in a morkanaut for the KFF bubble. Works pretty well against space marines. Hope this helps!

 Don Savik wrote:
-2 power fists do not grant extra attacks.

Two power klaws would grant the +1 bonus from having two weapons (as they are both Specialist), but getting the second on the Warboss is problematic - the Melee Weapons list (which is where the power klaw option is) requires you to swap an existing melee weapon for it, and a Warboss only starts with one melee weapon (a Choppa). There is a relic power klaw (Da Killy Klaw) in the Waaaagh! Ghazghkull supplement, which can be taken without swapping a relic.

 Don Savik wrote:
-Because it requires 3 troop choices doesn't it? Not many people are a fan of Boyz spam currently as they're pretty weak.

Lacks Objective Secured as well, which may be a consideration.

 Quanar wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
-2 power fists do not grant extra attacks.

Two power klaws would grant the +1 bonus from having two weapons (as they are both Specialist), but getting the second on the Warboss is problematic - the Melee Weapons list (which is where the power klaw option is) requires you to swap an existing melee weapon for it, and a Warboss only starts with one melee weapon (a Choppa). There is a relic power klaw (Da Killy Klaw) in the Waaaagh! Ghazghkull supplement, which can be taken without swapping a relic.

Power fists are a specialist weapon? Wow for some reason I thought only lightning claws were >__> oops

 DaRealJDB wrote:
One thing I've noticed between now and then is that the game feels like it has a strong rock-paper-scissors element to it.
- Why would I attach a Mek to a Big Gunz mob?

There are a few reasons to do it.
First is leadership. Grots are ld5 which is awful. Grots can die despite being t7 pretty easilly. They can die from overheats, psychic powers and simply from rate of fire. Regular mek is ld7. Big mek is ld8.
Second is mek's durability. It's worth it for big meks (and even warbosses in some lists) as meks also become t7 vs shooting attacks.
Third is SNP from megaarmor. Slow and Purposeful is for some reason transferred to the whole squad which means that all your grots and guns can move and shoot. This combined with the fact that a character in mega armor has 2+ armor and gets t7 against shooting means that your little mek gun walking bunker will be immune to most shooting attacks as you'll just tank non-ap2 shooting with a t7 character (watch out for instant death though as it's still counted on a model's regular toughness) and Look Out Sir most of the ap2 wounds. It also provides a charge-deterrence against chaff that'd murderize grots otherwise.
Sure, your shootiness per point falls drastically but you get some other neat bonuses which can be worth it.

 DaRealJDB wrote:

- Squighounds: Does anybody use them? Seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Sometimes holding position with grots is what wins games - especially in a point-based game. And realistically, that's the main strategy of winning games with orks against top-tier armies now. Outscore them. Not an auto-include but not a waste of points. Don't forget that a runtherd can't kill himself with it even if he's doing 6 wounds to one grot.

 DaRealJDB wrote:

- Grotpods: As pointless as I assume?

Pretty much so. You don't fight with grots - you die with them.

 DaRealJDB wrote:

- Powerklaws: IS anything stopping me from giving a warboss 2x Powerklaws to get the extra specialist attack?

The fact that you can't normally take two. You can get a relic klaw though. But it's not worth it. Looks hilarious on a biker boss though.

 DaRealJDB wrote:

- Any reason why I *wouldn't* use the Ork Horde Detachment?

No objective secured. That's huge for orks now. Why bother if you can just take two CADs.

 DaRealJDB wrote:

- Any reason why Stormboyz can't run with the normal rules in lieu of using their rokkit packs?

Nope, you can run however you want.

 DaRealJDB wrote:

- Ammo runts in Big Gunz: Are they dedicated to a specific gun? When firing a barrage, is an Ammo runt allowed to be used to reroll any shots after the first?

iirc it is indeed assigned to a specific gun. It's not 100% clear but here are a few quotes:
"Each Mek Gun can include one ammo runt"
"A model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting"

 DaRealJDB wrote:

- Just want to double check: Transport battlewagons appear to be able to take killkannons now, correct?

Yep but it lowers their transport capacity to twelve

 Don Savik wrote:

 Quanar wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
-2 power fists do not grant extra attacks.

Two power klaws would grant the +1 bonus from having two weapons (as they are both Specialist), but getting the second on the Warboss is problematic - the Melee Weapons list (which is where the power klaw option is) requires you to swap an existing melee weapon for it, and a Warboss only starts with one melee weapon (a Choppa). There is a relic power klaw (Da Killy Klaw) in the Waaaagh! Ghazghkull supplement, which can be taken without swapping a relic.

Power fists are a specialist weapon? Wow for some reason I thought only lightning claws were >__> oops

Too bad they are. If they weren't simple slugga would give +1A. Not 2xpower klaw...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DaRealJDB wrote:
- K. mega-slugga is 10 points, K. mega-blasta is 5. Why would I ever take the slugga?

+1A in CC over bit extra ability in shooting phase.

- Powerklaws: IS anything stopping me from giving a warboss 2x Powerklaws to get the extra specialist attack?

Apart from the rule problem mentioned also it's stupidly expensive +1A.

- BIG Meks: The options list looks like a mess. Big Mek in mega armor can replace his KMB with a Kill saw... beside his PK... Are they sure they meant to do that, especially given that in the Meganobz squad you can take paired Kill saws. Why are they taking this sweet sweet speacialist weapon attack away and making the model less fluffy. Stupid. I'm pulling my hair out as I type this.

What you are saying about specialist weapon attack away? You replace KMB with kill saw and have PK as well right? That's 2 specialist weapons=+1A. Whether you want to pay 10 pts and lose KMB is another thing.

So now it's obvious that my first question is really a complaint in disguise, but I still feel the need to asK: Am I being a grumpy old fart, or am I seeing things clearly? Is this the way that things are going, or is there some major element of meta-game that myself and any for-fun players are missing?

GW has continues to be bad at rules writing, its just now that they have been shifting gears in the middle of an edition cycle so you get power inconsistencies such as 7th edtion Dark Eldar and Orks compared to Craftworld Eldar and Tau.

Next, a bunch of small stuff regarding the new ork 'dex:. I get this feeling that with the Dex, as compared to the 3rd and 4th ed Dex' (Errr... 2nd is wacky AF), they rushed it and didn't really put as much critical thought into it.

Welcome to the mindset of the majority of the Ork player community. Whoever oversees the rules department does a terrible job of ensuring any sort of consistency, quality, or rudimentary balance between the factions.

- K. mega-slugga is 10 points, K. mega-blasta is 5. Why would I ever take the slugga?

Pistol gives +1 attack in CC, useless when you take a Killsaw or PK (All big meks should have a PK or Killsaw)

- I get a Mek with each HQ choice, does that mean for each HQ in my list, I get the option for an additional Mek, or does that mean for each slot, filled or not, on my org chart I get to have a Mek? (Example: Ork Horde Detach (3HQ slots) I'll take a Warboss and and a Big Mek. Does this mean I am able to have 2 or 3 Meks?)

Every HQ you take lets you take a Mek(boy) that doesn't take up a FOC slot. In your example you could take 2 Meks.

- No Big shoota in the mek weapons list. Is consensus that that was a mistake? I can't see why they would remove it.

One of many examples of GW making random changes for the sake of change. Zero reason to take out big shootas from the Mek weapon list.

- Why would I attach a Mek to a Big Gunz mob?

Leadership 7 basically as the grots are only leadership 5.

- Grot Orderlies: "Allows a painboy's unit to re-roll a single feel no pain roll" This wording is terrible. Is this a roll for a "Single" model? Or all the failed rolls in a single "unit"? I would lean towards the latter since you can only buy one Orderly, where the mek can buy three oilers. If it's the former, then that's weirdly lopsided.

Welcome to GW unit design, where consistency and reason are meaningless and justification is non existent. One orderly = one single reroll of a single FNP.

- Squighounds: Does anybody use them? Seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Grots be cowardly and sometimes you need to unleash the hounds to keep them in line. Good for giant blobs of grots that you don't want running away.

- Grotpods: As pointless as I assume?

Poison weapon is meh, the grabby klaw is better as it lowers the enemy attack value which can save lives.

- Powerklaws: IS anything stopping me from giving a warboss 2x Powerklaws to get the extra specialist attack?

Can't as it requires you to replace the choppa with a PK but doesn't let you replace the slugga with a PK. Its possible to have 2 PKs with use of certain relic wargear as one of them is basically a PK.

- BIG Meks: The options list looks like a mess. Big Mek in mega armor can replace his KMB with a Kill saw... beside his PK... Are they sure they meant to do that, especially given that in the Meganobz squad you can take paired Kill saws. Why are they taking this sweet sweet speacialist weapon attack away and making the model less fluffy. Stupid. I'm pulling my hair out as I type this.

Both are specialist weapons so they gain the +1 attack. Specialist weapons don't have to be the exact match, just both have to be specialist (you sometimes see Wolf Claw + Powerfist used by a Wolf Lord riding a Thunderwolf for the Space Wolves.... wolf wolf wolf ). Killsaw + PK vs 2x Killsaw is basically the same in 99.9% of combats unless there is some special rule that disarms a weapon and your trying to hit a vehicle while this is happening.... basically it never matters.

- I just want to make sure I'm reading this right: I can put a Big Mek on a warbike, with a Killsaw and either a KFF or SAG... oui?

Correct, become the most awesome looking Big Mek ever.

- Any reason why I *wouldn't* use the Ork Horde Detachment?

Objective Secured means you can be scoring when other more powerful formations and detachment units are fighting over an objective with your boyz/grots. The hammer of wrath on 10+ inch charge is really situational and usally only at S3 with a few boyz at best. Also rerolling on the BRB warlord traits (like strategic ) is really good. Orks got the short end on special detachments but it didn't help that Orks where the first 7th edition release which means we got to be the guinea pigs.

- Any reason why Stormboyz can't run with the normal rules in lieu of using their rokkit packs?

You can use either types of run as far as I know. Watch GW FAQ it so you have to use the packs because GW hates Orks.

- Ammo runts in Big Gunz: Are they dedicated to a specific gun? When firing a barrage, is an Ammo runt allowed to be used to reroll any shots after the first?

I think its assigned to each gun most people in friendly games just keep an ammo runt counter for the whole unit. Its not like firing order matters for the guns if they are all the same (and who would bother to mix guns types in the same unit?)

- Just want to double check: Transport battlewagons appear to be able to take killkannons now, correct?

Yes but capacity 12 when you do. Great for specialist Orks like Flash Gitz, Tankbustas, Meganobz, Nobz, etc who usually have a 10 or 15 man squad size cap.

Hey, if you're in Toronto, come check out Hogtown 40k gaming club, we're usually at Dueling Grounds (Duffrin and Bloor) on Saturdays and Wednesdays.

We're having an Oldhammer tournament in August, as a throwback to the simpler days of 4th

As for the game feeling more "rock, paper, scissor" like, it really depends on your points level, and the type of players you're facing.

The best option though, is to discuss what type of list you're interested in playing with/against with your opponent before hand. Especially in this day and age of super heavies, and formations.

I'm in Oakville but once I get my car (Next month) I will technically be a torontonian again!

I am currently in the process of making an all-grot army so it would be fun to have someone to chat it over with.