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Getting back into 40k after a short break and was curious if this Eldar list would be competitive.

Guardian Battlehost

Farseer - 100

3 x 10 guardian squads - 270
-starcannon platforms

Viper - 40

3 warwalkers - 180
-scatter lasers

d-cannon platforms - 165

Dire Avenger Shrine

3x5 dire avenger squads - 195

Wraith Construct

Wraithknight - 295

Aspect Host

2 x 5 fire dragons - 220

2 waveserpents - 230
-scatter lasers

8 warp spiders - 152

Total 1847
Thoughts?

If you want to run a craftworld warhost, I would say the windrider host would be the better choice. If you do want to use the guardian battle host, remember the platforms are free so you can take whatever you want. A missile launcher would be much more versatile as you get skyfire missile automatically, as well as blasts and single shots. the vyper ideally wants some sort of upgrade, possible the catapult to cannon upgrade for duel shuriken cannons. While the dire avengers and fire dragons aren't bad, more warp spiders would probably be more competitive and you could even try and squeeze in a second knight if you wanted to.

First off you need to buy Exarchs for your Aspect Host squads as it's in the formation's restrictions tab.

Dire Avenger shrines are good... but not good enough to justify them in a competitive build

The Battlehost is great for getting that automatic 6" run move on Warp spiders and the like but otherwise a Combined Arms Detachment stronger for allowing more Windrider Guardians with Scatterlasers ontop of giving them objective secured and then adding formations such as the aspect host.

Wraithknights are great - I'd suggest Ghostglaive and Scattershield for additional defence and table control but other users prefer the FW Deathshroud version or dual Heavy Wraithcannons.

EMLs on the guardians seem like a better idea - you're not paying for the upgrades in that formation, so why not go for the one with the most versatility? Also I'd definitely add warlocks to them for conceal... 5+ armour is all kinds of terrible.

Fire Dragons are Super Heavy killers - as long as you hit you'll blow something up

Vyper needs a second Shuriken Cannon

Ideally, I would like some faster, longer ranged, harder hitting units to plug up the gaps and who recommend you buy the Doom of Mymera book from forgeworld as it gives you a plethora of new formations (Autarch and 3 units of aspect warriors as a core choice for the warhost anyone, or a battle host that allows you to buy a Weapons platform for every 5 guardians anyone?) and great units (such as the Deathshroud Wraithknight, Warp Hunter, Hornets etc)

Too many points in your fire dragons. Switch them out for more spiders or dark reapers and lose the wave serpents. Since you are running a defender host put your points into warlocks in each unit of guardians and a warlock conclave. Also you get free platforms so I would take EML longer range heavier hitting and free AA. Maybe switch the walkers to EMLs if you are going to support the guardian line if you are going to outflank probably the shuricannons are good. If you go with Dark reapers, go minimum squads with Exarch with EML and pay for the S8 missiles for the other two. Remember that the aspect host requires exarchs.

I've been curious why people are saying I am spending too much on the fire dragons. They have always been a very good unit for me, and it would be tough to drop their wave serpent since they will be a high priority target. I have thought about dropping the wraithknight and maybe one of the warwalkers to include another aspect host with 3x5 warp spider aspect host formation. That'll also give me enough points to include the mandatory exarch in the other three squads and give the viper another shuriken cannon. However, I am a little apprehensive about dropping a tough unit for three mobile units. What are your thoughts on that? is the wraithknight a must take in a competitive list? or will the fire dragons be enough to take care of the super heavies and gargantuan creatures? thanks again for the responses.

If you want to be competitive, the wk is pretty much an auto take; don't drop it. The fire dragons are good, but you would be better served dropping the dire avengers and fire dragons completely and taking a full aspect host of spiders. If possible, get another wk. S: D support batteries, EML platforms and scatter lasers, along with 2 wks will probably be more than enough anti tank. A duel cannon wk can probably drop 2 tanks per turn on its own, though I and many others seem to prefer sword and board.

toocool61 wrote:
I've been curious why people are saying I am spending too much on the fire dragons. They have always been a very good unit for me, and it would be tough to drop their wave serpent since they will be a high priority target. I have thought about dropping the wraithknight and maybe one of the warwalkers to include another aspect host with 3x5 warp spider aspect host formation. That'll also give me enough points to include the mandatory exarch in the other three squads and give the viper another shuriken cannon. However, I am a little apprehensive about dropping a tough unit for three mobile units. What are your thoughts on that? is the wraithknight a must take in a competitive list? or will the fire dragons be enough to take care of the super heavies and gargantuan creatures? thanks again for the responses.

Hey, man.

Yes, the WK is a must. Other players will bring an Imp. Knight and a WK is the answer. War Walkers are not as good as they were when Laser Lock existed. Now, it's is the same as for FireDs: other units are far better.

FireDs: they were good when there were tanks to bust (in the time of the 6e codex). And of course, enemy ImpKs are out there, but those have their Invuln Shield, and the FireDs just can't bag them like you'd think. Plus the cost of a WaveS puts FireDs on the back burner compared to other units, like spiders, hawks & scatbikes. Against other WraithKnights? Meh. Wound on 4s? Watch those wounds go away with 5++ and FnP? No, FireDs are not the answer to WKs. Psy-Shriek with Horrify or Terrify are better answers for WraithKs, spiders too.

Scat spam is gonna out range most of your guns, spiders worst 'to wound' versus enemy elves, but the toughness of your D-battery goes away with Deathspinners shooting at them. Have you upped to the 7e codex?

Okay I made some adjustments, while trying to keep to the footdar theme. Here is what I came up with.

Guardian Battlehost

Farseer - 100

3 x 10 guardian squads - 350
-EML
-2 Warlocks
-Singing Spears

Viper - 50
-Shuriken cannon

3 warwalkers - 180
-scatter lasers/shuriken cannons. (not quite sure about their loadout tbh)

3 d-cannon platforms - 165

Dire Avenger Shrine

3x5 dire avenger squads - 195

Wraith Construct

Wraithknight - 295

Aspect Host

3x5 warp spiders - 315
-exarch

Avatar - 195

Total 1845

Took out the fire dragons all together, and just made msu spider squads. Not sure how to really load out the Walkers but scatter lasers seem like a good first choice. Kept the dire avengers because I felt like the list was too light on objective secured to lose them. Could replace them, but I don't see what I can replace them with due to only having a total of 20 warp spiders in my current collection. I could possibly sub them out for msu scorpions, but I don't feel that is too competitive of a build. Thoughts on these changes? And Yes the Scat biker spam build is going to be a problem but I do not see an easy counter for them trying to pull a footdar competitive build. I could try to hem them into a corner with my tougher units, but I still don't think I could pull that off with an opponent that knows how to play that build well.

toocool61 wrote:
Kept the dire avengers because I felt like the list was too light on objective secured to lose them.

Based on your wording there I just wanna double check: You know "Objective Secured" for Troops is a Command Benefit for Combined Arms Detachments, right? Since you're running a Craftworld Warhost your Guardians and Avengers don't get the "Objective Secured" Special rule.

Double Scatter Lasers is almost always best for War Walkers. More range and number of shots than Cannons. I feel like a Pale Courts Warhost may better fit the list you're trying to make here. It's got some great rules that benefit Guardian-based lists. Lets them take twice as many heavy weapons, though you have to pay for them all. No freebies. It'll let you drop the Vyper altogether which is just out of place currently, as well as let you split up your War Walkers into three squads of 1 to cover more targets, and make them more survivable and easier to hide. It also gives the War Walkers pinning against anything they and the Guardians both shoot at.

Pale Courts Battlehost: Disciples of Vaul, and Fortress of Discipline
- Farseer
- 10 Guardians - Warlock, Singing Spear, 2 Bright Lances
- 10 Guardians - Warlock, Singing Spear, 2 Bright Lances
- 10 Guardians - Warlock, Singing Spear, 2 Bright Lances
- 3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries - D-Cannons
- 1 War Walker - 2 Scatter Lasers
- 1 War Walker - 2 Scatter Lasers
- 1 War Walker - 2 Scatter Lasers

Aspect Host
- 5 Warp Spiders - Exarch upgrade
- 5 Warp Spiders - Exarch upgrade
- 5 Warp Spiders - Exarch upgrade

Wraith Constructs
- Wraithknight

Living Legends
- Avatar

1760 pts.

Trims the Vyper and Avengers, Gives your Guardians a bit more damage output, your War Walkers more utility, and you've got 90 points to play with still. You've even got enough points to give the Guardians their EMLs back if you want, though I'm not sure that would be the best use of points. Perhaps dropping 1 War Walker to take a Wraithlord with an EML if you really want one. That fits the Footdar theme and gives you another T8 bullet magnet. That'd bring to exactly 1850 pts. You could also just give each guardian unit 1 scatter laser and one EML for only 5 points more per unit, but I just have something against mixing weapons in my Guardian units, so I listed it as all Bright Lances

toocool61 wrote:
I've been curious why people are saying I am spending too much on the fire dragons. They have always been a very good unit for me, and it would be tough to drop their wave serpent since they will be a high priority target. I have thought about dropping the wraithknight and maybe one of the warwalkers to include another aspect host with 3x5 warp spider aspect host formation. That'll also give me enough points to include the mandatory exarch in the other three squads and give the viper another shuriken cannon. However, I am a little apprehensive about dropping a tough unit for three mobile units. What are your thoughts on that? is the wraithknight a must take in a competitive list? or will the fire dragons be enough to take care of the super heavies and gargantuan creatures? thanks again for the responses.

I look at the points dedicated to a short ranged attack unit. Basically it is a one shot unit and 50 50 the delivery system is tanked with it. So you are valuable only if the target equlals or exceeds the value of the unit and its ride. Face the deathwing and okay. If you can trade 1 dragon for an imperial knight great but if you have to dedicate 2 dragons it is a wash.

@bojazz where can I find the rules for the pale court warhost? and is it legal in tournament play? seems like everyone should run this formation instead of the craftworlds one.

toocool61 wrote:
@bojazz where can I find the rules for the pale court warhost? and is it legal in tournament play? seems like everyone should run this formation instead of the craftworlds one.

It's an IA book. Doom of Mymeara. Most people run CADs in tournaments so they can spam as many scat bikes as possible.

toocool61 wrote:
@bojazz where can I find the rules for the pale court warhost? and is it legal in tournament play? seems like everyone should run this formation instead of the craftworlds one.

Imperial Armour: The Doom of Mymeara v2, from Forgeworld. It is legal for tournament play unless the tournament bans forgeworld rules, which isn't often since they're owned and officially endorsed by GW. And yeah, it is better in most circumstances than the Guardian Battlehost in the Craftworlds book, but as Snykninja said, most people prefer to take CADs to get high numbers of Objective Secured Scatbikes.

Okay so assuming I can use it at the tournament I'd like to attend next weekend, uses ITC rules and states that the Corsairs army list is allowed, does this look any better?

Pale Courts Battlehost: Disciples of Vaul, and Fortress of Discipline
- Farseer
- 10 Guardians - Warlock, 2 Bright Lances
- 10 Guardians - Warlock, 2 Bright Lances
- 10 Guardians - Warlock, 2 Bright Lances
- 3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries - D-Cannons
- 3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries - D-Cannons
- 1 War Walker - 2 Scatter Lasers
- 1 War Walker - 2 Scatter Lasers

Aspect Host
- 5 Dire Avengers - Exarch upgrade
- 5 Warp Spiders - Exarch upgrade
- 5 Warp Spiders - Exarch upgrade

Wraith Constructs
- Wraithknight

Living Legends
- Avatar

Wraith Constructs
- Wraithlord - Sword and Bright Lance

Not sure if the heavy weapons platforms are the same points cost as in the craftworld codex, so I assumed they were. Took out a few upgrades, and realized I only have 10 warp spiders. A big difference from the 20 I thought I had lol. However, I have added in another D-cannon support battery unit so that I have a lot of board control, and a wraithlord to shimmy up with the avatar. Not sure if I should take bright lances, starcannons, or just shuriken cannons. I see the use of all of them, but I feel like I may have too many anti-tank weapons, and not enough shooting overall. It is a tough list, but I may need a bit more fire power somewhere. Open to criticism, but again I had to look up on the internet for the pale host rules so I am not too sure on point costs for their heavy weapons. Could possibly drop the bright lance on the wraithlord and down grade the second d cannon platform to shadow weavers to try and get three wasps, but not sure if they are really that much better.

The Pale Court is separate from the Corsairs list. The Pale Court is a new Formation for the Eldar Warhost in the Eldar Codex. Most places I've ever seen allow it as it has the most updated rules.

Depending on your area, though, I'd recommend actually having the rules for the Pale Court. Some folks may not be familiar with it and may balk at folks trying to bring FW without the appropriate rules available. YMMV, but I tend to insist on seeing the actual rules.

In the Pale Court, you pay the same points for the heavy weapon platforms.

I've run the Pale Court a bit and it's very useful when you want something a bit different from the Guardian or Jetbike Eldar Core Formations.

With as many D-Cannons as you have, I would recommend the Wraithknight with a Sword/Shield. I've run the Wraithknight/Avatar/Wraithseer in an 1850 list and it actually provided a very decent assault element.

Remember that you gain the Craftworld Warhost Command Benefit of 6" run moves. This is big with the Avatar as it effectively gives him a 12". He has fleet, so his assault ranges can be deceptively further than people may anticipate.

I always like to have some barrage available in my armies (I typically use Warp Hunters). D-Cannons don't have great range and the cheap Shadow Weavers can try to reach those really cheap MSU units out of LOS camping on objectives. I ran War Walkers and enjoyed them, so I'd imagine Wasps would work nicely as well. Best of luck.

toocool61 wrote:
Okay so assuming I can use it at the tournament I'd like to attend next weekend, uses ITC rules and states that the Corsairs army list is allowed, does this look any better?

Pale Courts Battlehost: Disciples of Vaul, and Fortress of Discipline
- Farseer
- 10 Guardians - Warlock, 2 Bright Lances
- 10 Guardians - Warlock, 2 Bright Lances
- 10 Guardians - Warlock, 2 Bright Lances
- 3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries - D-Cannons
- 3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries - D-Cannons
- 1 War Walker - 2 Scatter Lasers
- 1 War Walker - 2 Scatter Lasers

Aspect Host
- 5 Dire Avengers - Exarch upgrade
- 5 Warp Spiders - Exarch upgrade
- 5 Warp Spiders - Exarch upgrade

Wraith Constructs
- Wraithknight

Living Legends
- Avatar

Wraith Constructs
- Wraithlord - Sword and Bright Lance

Not sure if the heavy weapons platforms are the same points cost as in the craftworld codex, so I assumed they were. Took out a few upgrades, and realized I only have 10 warp spiders. A big difference from the 20 I thought I had lol. However, I have added in another D-cannon support battery unit so that I have a lot of board control, and a wraithlord to shimmy up with the avatar. Not sure if I should take bright lances, starcannons, or just shuriken cannons. I see the use of all of them, but I feel like I may have too many anti-tank weapons, and not enough shooting overall. It is a tough list, but I may need a bit more fire power somewhere. Open to criticism, but again I had to look up on the internet for the pale host rules so I am not too sure on point costs for their heavy weapons. Could possibly drop the bright lance on the wraithlord and down grade the second d cannon platform to shadow weavers to try and get three wasps, but not sure if they are really that much better.

I added up the points for this and it comes out to 1965 points. Not sure where your error is, but you'll have to do some trimming to bring it to 1850. The Heavy Weapons in the Pale Courts are the same cost as the Craftworlds codex and you don't get any free ones like you do with a Guardian Battlehost. It's fieldable as a Craftworld Eldar army, so you don't need to call yourself a Corsairs list.

Yes, I need to cut a warlock and a war walker and then I hit 1850 perfectly. Also drop the bright lance on the wraithlord