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Hi all, I recently switched off daemons and into Chaos marines; sold most of my daemons so using them as allies isn't in the cards. I've got a pretty big collection and I should be able to make something particularly nasty out of this. To give you an idea of what I'm looking at;
2 mauler/forge fiends
1 fire raptor
1 thermal cannon chaos knight or 1 double gattling knight
1 kytan
100 zombies
2 heldrakes
tons of spawn
plague marines, predators, bunch of chaos bikes, oblits, bunch of terminators, Typhon heavy tank conversion, daemon prince etc

I'm thinking of a couple of cool ideas.. most of my army is heavily converted and i'm looking at a few options

1. Fire Raptor and two heldrakes is some really nasty air support... problem is that I'd basically have to take a comms relay to make sure they come in. now with THAT said, I could take the Hunting Pack formation and bring in two forgefiends behind an aegis line/comms relay. The warpsmith uses the relay and gives his BS4 to the forgefiends. they also get preferred enemy against one enemy character... odds are that character is in a unit so I'd have preferred enemy against a whole unit.
Problem is.. the Hades Autocannon Rapier platforms are still more efficient shooting.. trouble with that is they compete with the fire raptor for points. still almost seems like the best list would be three fire raptors, three heldrakes and a crap load of zombies, but hey, that's no fun.
at least the maulerfiend formation doesn't take up heavy support spots.

2. building on that idea... I don't love the forgefiend idea and i think this would be way better using them as maulerfiends but to get the WS4 I need to keep the warpsmith in 12'. So now I have to buy him a rhino. and I can't see what would benefit from also being in that rhino (plague marines I guess?? melta-suicide squad that escorts the warpsmith to try to keep him safe?) Maulerfiends as WS4 could be very scary. The pair of them could kill a knight since he can only attack one at a time.. maybe even better if i could drop the knight's Initiative. Maybe the Dakka is the way to go though..

3. I loved the idea of the sorceror cabal upfront... I'm still thinking of ways to make it awesome... it sucks that it has to be a non-vehicle i take control of. If i could jack a knight for a turn to shoot that'd be super fun. that said, taking over grav cents or grav skitarri or any number of other things could be cool. Perhaps the bigger advantage is the possibility of taking FIVE sorcerors together... that's a ton of dice and a ton of potential for some really nasty nonsense. Add in Ahriman and end up with the potential for 8 psy shrieks a turn? pretty much guaranteed invisibility.
dumb question but how do i make them a unit? Can I join ICs together into one big unit? Or would i have to take a unit of cultists or something and then join them all to that one unit? (assuming I wanted them in one big unit.. but if the were invisible and maybe shrouded as well, I'd feel pretty good about my odds. just need to make sure a culuxus doesn't ruin the party)

4. I still really like the wargear in Crimson Slaughter... having a sorceror with presience is a big deal... ESPECIALLY when I take a renegade knight with dual gattling funs and all of the sudden he's twin linked...
almost makes me want to take 2 renegade knights and a kytan. a few zombies and sorcerors to boost them and call it 1850...

5. I really like zombie spam a lot... taking typhus and at least 2 squads of 35 zombies... add in ahriman or other sorcerors for invis and shrouding. Hell, here's a list I just pointed out
Typhus
35 zombies
35 zombies
35 zombies

renegade knight with dual gattling cannons

sorceror cabal formations = 5 level 3 sorcerors

crimson slaughter allies
1 sorceror with divination
squad of cultists troops

That fits at 1850... 7 sorcerors in total, 20 mastery dice.. prescience every turn with rerolls going off on the renegade knight. enough zombies to bubble wrap him to keep him out of melta or even grav range. chances of rolling 2-3 invisibility are pretty high. chances of rolling shrouded are high as well. i should be able to reliably hold 3 objectives with a unit of zombies on each one buffed way up with invisibility. keep the knight safe shooting at things and use powers to shriek or take control of an enemy unit when needed as well. wouldnt be the most fun list... but it looks like it could be really effective. not much can kill that many bodies especially if they're boosted up.

6. I really want to run some cool bikes... i've got a bunch of conversions of plague marines riding cold ones and they look awesome. combined with mauler/forgefiends converted out of maggoth lords and a renegade knight converted out of glottkin... add in rapier weapon platforms converted out of plague toads... i think that's the basis of the aesthetic i want to run.

so to summarize, I'd love to hear any thoughts!
1. what are some good chaos tips to be really effective I may be overlooking?
2. when I want to play a nasty tournament what's the biggest douchey thing I can do as chaos? 3 fire raptors and 3 heldrakes sure seems like a good place to start. most stuff would never even be able to touch it but I'd have to have a way of ensuring survival on the ground and getting those reserve rerolls.

would love thoughts!

There isn't really a good Tournament list available to CSM. You have the right idea by spamming Fire Raptors and Drakes, but you'll be competitive by play alone, don't expect an army cheese edge.

Some of your ideas are great ideas that seem a little to "eegs-in-one-basket" to me. 2 Fire Raptors seems like a good start since you have em. I like a Sorceror in the back for spells, and a Lord up front to hit things. Ally in a Herald and 10 pink Horrors if you want some Divination for the knight. The Cabal makes a great hard counter to single WK list and the like. Add in a drake for bike killing, but I'd lay off the three of each route, just not enough maneuver units for objectives.

Oblits are great HS, as are Maulers. Forgefiends don't do quite as well without psyker support simply because of the cost, but definitely still viable. LasPreds and Demolishers have a home in armor list, but not gonna win you any tournaments.

DS your lord with 3 oblits for a great killy unit with a small foot print that does insane damage/disruption. Have to charge it to stop it, lord kills whatever tries. Very viable and under 500 pts for a little hurt-star.

If Daemon allies are out,anything else will be surprise armies and list. Units of 10+ Slaanesh bikers with FnP can surprise people, especially with 4+ blastermaster units running around. Zombies are great for holding things and dying slowly, but not much else. If you want a list full of bodies, go Renegades and Heretics.

HQ is to limited to take a warpsmith. A tzeentch herald gets div, cost a tiny amount, and comes with 10 horrors so you get 4 dice. It's a better op than taking a Sorceror with the Balestar. Or hell, take both.

Kytan is good, Blood Slaughterers are decent, and The Greater Brass Scorpion is nuts good. If you're going with a LOW, those are top 3. Belakor is amazing when paired with those guys. Invisible Knights or Kytans mess up peoples day. Take Belakor for the invis. Your other option is Slaanesh heralds that require rolling for it, and Belakor does work by himself.

With the warpSmith and forgefiends I'm talking strictly the formation, but thanks for the overall ideas! I sold my daemons but could convert a unit of zombies into albino, gross looking horrors. Daemons could add some nice divination if I don't want to take the Crimson slaughter help.

I plan on building a nice rounded list that is strong and looks awesome, especially because these are the models I have left. I had a strong tournament daemon army but want to do something different.

Even bringing two Heldrakes and a fire raptor sounds like a solid start for competition. I do like cheap throwaway melta bike units. I'll have to see how they do killing a knight, I'm so used to a grimoired knight now aha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good point with belaKor and the kytan too, I used him grimoired In a recent tournament and he slayed. Needs prescience though

Termicide has always seemed like the better throw away melta platform, but I haven't actually used it, so I can't speak from experience.

Lord
Sorce
3 Nurgle Oblits
2 Fire Raptors
2 Heldrake
1 min Cultist
2 CSM with Rhinos
1 min Bikes w/ 2 meltas

That sits at about 1450 before any wargear or upgrades. I think it's a strong start to modify and go. I want to hear back how you do in a competitive scene, so keep us updated!

This post sounds like it belongs in the army list section.

" I have x, y, z. Help me make an army..."

As you have no actual csm in your csm you're gona be fine.

may i also recommend the crimson slaughter formation with the dark apostle - you get zombies that come back. Great for challenges with Typhus ! (the champ gets to come back on your turn)