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Hi people. So I'm going to use the starter from BaC to make a beginner list of SoH. I was just wondering how to finish it. Here's what I have for now :

HQ

-Master of Signal : Artificer Armour, Volkite Charger

-Legion Praetor : Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Chainfist, Combi-bolter with only Banestrike Rounds
-->Master of the Legion : The Black Reaving.

-Justaerin Terminator x5

Troops

-Legion Tactical Squad x15 : Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade

-Reaver Attack Squad x15 : Artificer Armour, 15x Boltgun with Banestrike Shells

Elites

-Contemptor-Cortus Class Dreadnought Talon : Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon


Legion
Legion Astartes
Traitor, XVI: Sons of Horus

Total :1297 / 1750

So, I was wondering which upgrades I should put on the Justaerin Termies and if there was anything else I should take notice of.

Thanks for your answers.

Apothecaries

Power Swords

More Reavers

Drop Pods

Some way to kill Armor at range - like Laser Destroyer Vindicators?

Our Justarians, while nice are far too pricy under 2500 points without a solid delivery system. I would say drop them, add another reaver squad and then grab your one heavy support as either a Missile squad with you MoS attached to bump up their BS or just pump up your Reavers.

Praetor without a Paragon Blade??? Heresy!

You do need some kind of anti-armor. I find Sicarian tanks to be awesome in that area. Another option would be a Legion Tactical Support Squad with all meltas, and you can never go wrong with a Legion Devastator Support Squad with all Missile Launchers.

Might want some mobility in that list too. Transports or Drop Pods, which would necessitate re-working the squads, or maybe a Spartan Land Raider? That would solve the anti-armor and transport issue. Not real sure what else you can do at 1,750 points. 30K doesn't really start to shine until 2,500 points.

If you want those Justaerins take Abby and give them combi-weapons. Then Deep Strike them, they can take a pounding.

I would second that. Drop the vanilla praetor and take Abaddon

Black Reaving allows Justaerin to Deep Strike.

You could then take the Cataphractii Primus on your Praetor and Tank all those instant death wounds being taken by your Justaerin unit. And because the Cataphractii Primus is a relic it doesn't interfere with taking a power fist and a paragon blade (both are specialist weapons) to give you the extra attack in combat. Add on some digital lasers and your looking at 7 attacks on the charge.

You can't use relics in a pick-up game. The faq explicitly states they are only to be used in campaign games

Dr. Bizarre wrote:
You can't use relics in a pick-up game. Also, paragon blades are two-handed, so you won't get an extra attack for welding two specialist weapons anyway

Paragon blades are not 2 handed though.....

You are right about relics though: You need opponent permission to use them outside of campaigns :(

Yes, just realised paragon blades aren't two-handed

Chainfist is better than the paragon blade except that it can lessen return attacks which is especially valuable vs say powerfist terminators or cqc elite. Mc chainfist is an excellent choice. Paragon blade is great but not the must take you people make it out to be.

I'd rather take arty armour and a halo, as it's much cheaper, so no chainfists for me. Powerfists do the job just as well though.

 Fruzzle wrote:
Chainfist is better than the paragon blade except that it can lessen return attacks which is especially valuable vs say powerfist terminators or cqc elite. Mc chainfist is an excellent choice. Paragon blade is great but not the must take you people make it out to be.

The paragon blade is arguably the best 'generic' non-AT weapon that praetors have access to. A MC chainfist is nice, but against anything other than walkers/tanks it's just a power fist, which the paragon blade beats out (3 less strength for attacking at 4(!) higher initiative, with the ability to ID, AND for certain legions not having unwieldy is a huge buff(Night Lords, SoH, and DA to name a few. BA ALSO make the paragon blade generally wound on a 2+ ). I LOVE the loadout of a praetor in artificer w/ Power fist/Paragon blade (I would use a chain fist is Artificer could take it, though )

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:
Chainfist is better than the paragon blade except that it can lessen return attacks which is especially valuable vs say powerfist terminators or cqc elite. Mc chainfist is an excellent choice. Paragon blade is great but not the must take you people make it out to be.

The paragon blade is arguably the best 'generic' non-AT weapon that praetors have access to. A MC chainfist is nice, but against anything other than walkers/tanks it's just a power fist, which the paragon blade beats out (3 less strength for attacking at 4(!) higher initiative, with the ability to ID, AND for certain legions not having unwieldy is a huge buff(Night Lords, SoH, and DA to name a few. BA ALSO make the paragon blade generally wound on a 2+ ). I LOVE the loadout of a praetor in artificer w/ Power fist/Paragon blade (I would use a chain fist is Artificer could take it, though )

The chainfist has guaranteed ID vs almost everything (t4) where as with paragon blade you need luck.
Chainfist being better against vehicles and dread is NOT a small thing at all in 30k.
Wounding on a 3+ is worse than wounding on a 2+ . (unless BA, okay).

Paragon blade is better vs castellax (I gues?, maybe not even, wounding on 6's but ID vs wounding on 3's not ID, means to kill a castellax the chainfist needs 6 wounds and the blade the same, so about even).
Paragon blade strikes at I.
Preator vs preator chain fist wins.
Your left with being able to take out some dudes before they attack. BUT unable to harm vehicles/dreadnought which are really pretty common in 30k and loosing the preator vs preator matchup.

End result is that, I feel they're about even fighting dudes (more kills vs less attacks back), chainfist wins vs 4 multi wound, wins vs vehicles,
All in all chainfist is at least equal to the Paragon Blade. But the blade is incredibly over hyped.

I tend to take melta bombs on my praetor for dealing with vehicles. And make sure there is a fist or two in his bodyguard

 Fruzzle wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:
Chainfist is better than the paragon blade except that it can lessen return attacks which is especially valuable vs say powerfist terminators or cqc elite. Mc chainfist is an excellent choice. Paragon blade is great but not the must take you people make it out to be.

The paragon blade is arguably the best 'generic' non-AT weapon that praetors have access to. A MC chainfist is nice, but against anything other than walkers/tanks it's just a power fist, which the paragon blade beats out (3 less strength for attacking at 4(!) higher initiative, with the ability to ID, AND for certain legions not having unwieldy is a huge buff(Night Lords, SoH, and DA to name a few. BA ALSO make the paragon blade generally wound on a 2+ ). I LOVE the loadout of a praetor in artificer w/ Power fist/Paragon blade (I would use a chain fist is Artificer could take it, though )

The chainfist has guaranteed ID vs almost everything (t4) where as with paragon blade you need luck.
Chainfist being better against vehicles and dread is NOT a small thing at all in 30k.
Wounding on a 3+ is worse than wounding on a 2+ . (unless BA, okay).

Paragon blade is better vs castellax (I gues?, maybe not even, wounding on 6's but ID vs wounding on 3's not ID, means to kill a castellax the chainfist needs 6 wounds and the blade the same, so about even).
Paragon blade strikes at I.
Preator vs preator chain fist wins.
Your left with being able to take out some dudes before they attack. BUT unable to harm vehicles/dreadnought which are really pretty common in 30k and loosing the preator vs preator matchup.

End result is that, I feel they're about even fighting dudes (more kills vs less attacks back), chainfist wins vs 4 multi wound, wins vs vehicles,
All in all chainfist is at least equal to the Paragon Blade. But the blade is incredibly over hyped.

Nah, all-in-all the chain fist is equal to a power fist, which is slightly below a Paragon blade.

A chainfist DOES ID most all marines BUT goes at the same time as any other powerfists that your opponent is holding, whichs means you're just as likely to take wounds when you're swinging. The paragon blade goes sooner, and 9/10 times you'll have a body guard to eat wounds.
Meltabombs are dirt cheap, and as I mentioned before, you're praetor is normally in a body guard of some form (typically terminators).
BA, DG (rad grenades), Biker DA (rad grenades), NL (talent for murder) all "normally" wound on a 2+ with paragon blade, AND the additional swings SoH get when your not using an unwieldy weapon.

power fist>chainfist in Castellax hunting, if only for the point cost. HOWEVER with the things listed above, a Paragon blade is a good method of stripping wounds (and possibly killing) BEFORE they get a chance to mulch marines.
In a praetor v. praetor fight: chainfist praetor only "wins" if you live through the opening volley (which will cause 2-3 wounds, if not more, depending on rolling, assuming no 6's, before saves) AND he fails the fewer number of wounds you will cause since you have 1-2 less attacks.

Paragon blade is the smarter option for dealing with power armour marines, terminators (unless you WANT them to swing at the same time as you), and (most of the time) other characters.
so, no: there's no 'guarantee' on the praetor fight (it's actually pretty one sided if you're one of the legions listed above. SUPER one sided if your DG or SoH), against vehicles and walkers, not only do you have a bodyguard unit of some type, you also have cheap melta bombs AND you can buy a power fist if you go the artificer + paragon blade/power fist route.

this is not to say a chain fist is bad, it's just probably better served on another model in you praetor+beatstick squad.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:
Chainfist is better than the paragon blade except that it can lessen return attacks which is especially valuable vs say powerfist terminators or cqc elite. Mc chainfist is an excellent choice. Paragon blade is great but not the must take you people make it out to be.

The paragon blade is arguably the best 'generic' non-AT weapon that praetors have access to. A MC chainfist is nice, but against anything other than walkers/tanks it's just a power fist, which the paragon blade beats out (3 less strength for attacking at 4(!) higher initiative, with the ability to ID, AND for certain legions not having unwieldy is a huge buff(Night Lords, SoH, and DA to name a few. BA ALSO make the paragon blade generally wound on a 2+ ). I LOVE the loadout of a praetor in artificer w/ Power fist/Paragon blade (I would use a chain fist is Artificer could take it, though )

The chainfist has guaranteed ID vs almost everything (t4) where as with paragon blade you need luck.
Chainfist being better against vehicles and dread is NOT a small thing at all in 30k.
Wounding on a 3+ is worse than wounding on a 2+ . (unless BA, okay).

Paragon blade is better vs castellax (I gues?, maybe not even, wounding on 6's but ID vs wounding on 3's not ID, means to kill a castellax the chainfist needs 6 wounds and the blade the same, so about even).
Paragon blade strikes at I.
Preator vs preator chain fist wins.
Your left with being able to take out some dudes before they attack. BUT unable to harm vehicles/dreadnought which are really pretty common in 30k and loosing the preator vs preator matchup.

End result is that, I feel they're about even fighting dudes (more kills vs less attacks back), chainfist wins vs 4 multi wound, wins vs vehicles,
All in all chainfist is at least equal to the Paragon Blade. But the blade is incredibly over hyped.

Nah, all-in-all the chain fist is equal to a power fist, which is slightly below a Paragon blade.

A chainfist DOES ID most all marines BUT goes at the same time as any other powerfists that your opponent is holding, whichs means you're just as likely to take wounds when you're swinging. The paragon blade goes sooner, and 9/10 times you'll have a body guard to eat wounds.
Meltabombs are dirt cheap, and as I mentioned before, you're praetor is normally in a body guard of some form (typically terminators).
BA, DG (rad grenades), Biker DA (rad grenades), NL (talent for murder) all "normally" wound on a 2+ with paragon blade, AND the additional swings SoH get when your not using an unwieldy weapon.

power fist>chainfist in Castellax hunting, if only for the point cost. HOWEVER with the things listed above, a Paragon blade is a good method of stripping wounds (and possibly killing) BEFORE they get a chance to mulch marines.
In a praetor v. praetor fight: chainfist praetor only "wins" if you live through the opening volley (which will cause 2-3 wounds, if not more, depending on rolling, assuming no 6's, before saves) AND he fails the fewer number of wounds you will cause since you have 1-2 less attacks.

Paragon blade is the smarter option for dealing with power armour marines, terminators (unless you WANT them to swing at the same time as you), and (most of the time) other characters.
so, no: there's no 'guarantee' on the praetor fight (it's actually pretty one sided if you're one of the legions listed above. SUPER one sided if your DG or SoH), against vehicles and walkers, not only do you have a bodyguard unit of some type, you also have cheap melta bombs AND you can buy a power fist if you go the artificer + paragon blade/power fist route.

this is not to say a chain fist is bad, it's just probably better served on another model in you praetor+beatstick squad.

I think I adressed most of this already but outside of some of the special situations the chainfist/powerfist/thunderhammer ( you can lump them all together, chainfist imo most usefull) is more effective vs MEQ/TEQ.
It's heaps more effective vs multiwound MEQ (so, characters).

A Paragon Praetor with 7 attacks (4 + two weapons + digital lasers + charging) only manages to inflict ~1.2 unsaved wounds on his opponent, before getting InstaKilled by ~1.5 unsaved Power fist wounds, which don't need to roll a 6 to inflict Instant Death, but rather a mere 2+.

Fist preator wins.

vs tactical squad you're exchanging earlier damage for heavier damage later. (Ignoring legion specific rules like sonic screachers) If your preator + terminators are fighting tac marines it really doesn't matter what you have. If you're fighting vs other elite units... you'll usually end up in preator vs preator (see above) If you'd happen to run into firedrakes/Justarian, you REALLY want the fist.

Slight favor for paragon blade vs MEQ. VS TEQ/Legion elite fist wins..

VS vehicles.

A melta bomb has 1 attack. A fist/hammer/chain preator has 4~7. If you ever fought a contemptor/leviathan in combat you'd know 1 melta bomb attack does nothing. Melta bombs are also unlikely to kill a spartan. You'd need upwards of 7 melta bombs to kill it. Lighter armour becomes easier, heavier harder as expected. Point being the fists are heaps better than the blade and melta bomb.

Fist Preator wins.

End result, if your B.A,/have rad grenades/SoH/NL the Blade kills meq/teq(unless 2W) as effective as a fist but much faster.
In almost every other scenario, the fist is more effective.

You can choose
-powerfist: Save points
-Chainfist: KIll vehicles
-Thunder hammer: Helps vs paragon users that might survive 1 round (Jetbike preator, salamanders preator, autok morr).

Paragon blade vs Fist equivalents: really hard choice; choose depending on legion/target/your own army needs.

BUT The blade is not superior, it looses (Mathematically) vs fists if your T4 no eternal warrior. You loose to the hammer even with EW (Ergo salamander preators usually have hammers not Blades. The Blade is not a must .

For OP's army, he should either include (much) more AT or keep the chainfist. I understand that as SoH you want to take advantage of the (potential) extra attack but...quantity over quality.
And persoanlly I love sending my preator after heavy armour thats hard to beat at range but should die fast (Leviathan in pods) and kill spartans in a pinch.

vs. praetor: Sure, S: 8 praetor wins out: assuming no 6 is rolled or the paragon blade praetor doesn't have access to EW (MANY legion relics) (it's probably even closer if you're playing the 1/3 of the legions in game who have legion buffs making their paragon blade (normally) wound on a 2+. And maybe even more if you add in a body guard unit and play with the challenges)

vs. tacticals: kinda true. it normally doesn't matter, HOWEVER a paragon blade (almost) completely removes the threat of a srgt. w/ power fist challenging and getting lucky. Even IF the fist praetor kills him, the srgt. has a good change to do the same to the fist praetor (both unwieldy)

vs. elites: Paragon blade still wins out imo. The key problem with all the p. fist variants is that even if you did kill 6 terminators with your fist, they ALL still get to swing back: a threat that the paragon blade removes.

vs. vehicles: you have a point, however 2 flaws: 1) 9/10 times your praetor's body guard squad will have plenty access to melta, powerfists, and the like 2) there are MUCH better ways to hunt vehicles in 30k, so this one should be more of a side note. (double side note: what weapons do these leviathan's in pods use? at best you're causing, what? 1.7 pens? I mean it's a safe idea if they don't have CCWs on it, but to even get to that point with the praetor you gotta weather 4-5 S: 10 AP: 2 attacks that can, in theory, cause extra wounds. Good idea assuming the leviathan's are dual gun though.)


are blades auto-includes? Nah, at least, not in a closed environment. When you have your bodyguard who can carry the same weaponry, but in bulk, can eat challenges, and the like the paragon blade is a more reliable way to kill of slower AP: 2 BEFORE they ever get a chance to swing. Point in case: throwing ONLY a praetor at a 5-man command squad, all with fists: who is going to do the job safer and better? P. fist STILL has to take those ~10 p.fist attacks, even if he kills all of them, sword doesn't.

Looking at OP's list: the chain fist removes a good buff that SoH gives him (the extra attacks at end step UNLESS you have unwieldy weaponry), and being that it would be his only real AT (since he's running him in a justaerin squad) it would be silly for him to run it at vehicles, relying only on his chainfist to do damage. as I said: for AT there are MUCH better, cheaper, safer options.

 Brennonjw wrote:
vs. praetor: Sure, S: 8 praetor wins out: assuming no 6 is rolled or the paragon blade praetor doesn't have access to EW (MANY legion relics) (it's probably even closer if you're playing the 1/3 of the legions in game who have legion buffs making their paragon blade (normally) wound on a 2+. And maybe even more if you add in a body guard unit and play with the challenges)

Well relics are for campain only, not used in normal play. Not all the legion buffs make the blade outperform the fist, sons of horus won't. Night lords doesn't always trigger and DA is gear dependant. Blood angels are the clear winners. The Body guard argument works both ways.

 Brennonjw wrote:
vs. tacticals: kinda true. it normally doesn't matter, HOWEVER a paragon blade (almost) completely removes the threat of a srgt. w/ power fist challenging and getting lucky. Even IF the fist praetor kills him, the srgt. has a good change to do the same to the fist praetor (both unwieldy)

I don't see why you'd ever have to fight the sarg unless you charge the blob alone. But I will agree here.
vs. elites: Paragon blade still wins out imo. The key problem with all the p. fist variants is that even if you did kill 6 terminators with your fist, they ALL still get to swing back: a threat that the paragon blade removes.

I agree on the last point

Challenges could pull the praetor into a fight with the Srgt. not common, but could still happen

You brought up Deathshroud, which would mulch the fists more-so since their AP:2 attacks are I:3 not I:1, which is before the fist gets to swing

Rapiers, laser vindis, lightnings, Sicarians (I'm not a huge fan, but they are a fun counter to Spartans), Heavy support squads, dreadnoughts, the other fighter legions have, etc. I do agree that CC is one of the best ways to deal with a Spartan, however all tanks are not spartans (+ methinks they are not as common as we are lead onto believe since it's a stupid expensive transport for a (normally) stupid expensive squad)

as for the threat of dreads tying up his justaerins: he has a contemptor of his own, run the dread near his termies to counter charge and/or send the dread out against his dread ASAP.


To OP: It really seems like your core issue is that you (seem) to be limited to the BAC kit, which is super light on AT I say give your Justaerin a multi-melta, leave them with power axes (NOT claws), and either get a second BAC kit (more termies, another contemptor, max out the reaver/tac squads AND then move onto support/seeker squads to help out) OR go part-by-part and start building up. Overall, just keep in mind that 30k is more about fun/fluff/look of your army than it (typically) is about winning.