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G'day, folks! Name's Dreganius. I'm a Warhammer 40k player, and I've been a collector for over 10 years, but stopped playing competitively more than 6 years ago. I'm starting up a Black Templars army, and after a bit of discussion with some of the staff and hobbyists at the Edinburgh Warhammer store during my holiday here in the UK, I decided to go for a CC heavy, fluffy army that also utilises the Cheesehammer Annihilation Force, and Helbrecht together with a Champion to soak up challenges to the High Marshal. Since this is my first foray into anything but a non-fluffy Death Korps list or Imperial Knight list since back in the 5th Edition days, I would really appreciate some pointers!

There are three major points I would like addressed, although I'm open to all input:
1: My main concern is the lack of AT, and especially, AA, which is why I threw the Devastator squads a pair of Flakk Missile Launchers each. I've no gauge on the effectiveness of these weapons.
2: The Ironclad does not utilize a Drop-Pod. Stripping 35pts has proved a little difficult too without effectively gimping a squad in some way.
3: I don't use any Neophytes in this list as I have no idea of their effectiveness and tried to squeeze in every possible thing I could into 1850 points, but I've heard recently that they are a very good soak.

As a side note, I can very easily add an Imperial Knight of any plastic kit variant to supplement any shortcomings (save for AA). I also do not yet own any of the FA or HS choices in the list, so if those points could be better spent I'm all ears!

Now that this introduction is out of the way, here's the list:

- HQ -

Marshal Bernhardt
High Marshal Helbrecht proxy, fluff name.
——180pts——

Emperor's Champion
——140pts——

Total
320pts
———————————————————————

- TROOPS -

Crusader Squad
9 Initiates
7 with Chainswords + Bolt Pistols
1 with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
1 with Flamer
1 Sword Brother with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
1 Rhino transport
——220pts——

Crusader Squad
9 Initiates
7 with Chainswords + Bolt Pistols
1 with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
1 with Flamer
1 Sword Brother with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
1 Rhino transport
——220pts——

Total
440pts
———————————————————————

- ELITES -

Sword Brethren (Vanguard Veterans)
4 Veterans,
2 with Power Weapons + Bolt Pistols
2 with Power Weapons + Storm Shields
1 Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist + Bolt Pistol
1 Rhino transport
——185pts——

Ironclad Dreadnought
——135pts——

Total
320pts
———————————————————————

- FAST ATTACK -

Assault Squad
9 Assault Marines
8 with Chainswords + Bolt Pistols
1 with Flamer
Sword Brother (Veteran Sergeant) with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
All with Jump Packs
——200pts——

Assault Squad
9 Assault Marines
8 with Chainswords + Bolt Pistols
1 with Flamer
Sword Brother (Veteran Sergeant) with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
All with Jump Packs
——200pts——

Total
400pts
———————————————————————

—HEAVY SUPPORT—

Devastator Squad
4 Devastator Marines
2 with Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles
1 with Lascannon
1 with Heavy Bolter
1 Sergeant
Drop Pod
——185pts——

Devastator Squad
4 Devastator Marines
2 with Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles
1 with Lascannon
1 with Heavy Bolter
1 Sergeant
Drop Pod
——185pts——

Total
370pts

———————————————————————

GRAND TOTAL
1850

Now, I don't own everything in this list, so this will also serve as a sort of shopping guide as well. However, this is what I do have so far:



Cheers for the help, and apologies for the lengthy first post

Unless you're running Imperial Fists chapter tactics, flakk missiles are terrible. They are worthless against the most commonly used flying monstrous creatures (who have 3+ armor or better), and though there are fliers which are AV 10, the common ones are 11s and 12s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dreganius wrote:Crusader Squad
9 Initiates
7 with Chainswords + Bolt Pistols
1 with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
1 with Flamer
1 Sword Brother with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
1 Rhino transport

If a close combat squad without jump packs isn't in a landraider or some other assault vehicle, this squad is completely useless. you can't disembark and charge in the same turn. If your opponent wrecks the rhino, you still have to stand around on your turn without charging.

- ELITES -

Sword Brethren (Vanguard Veterans)
4 Veterans,
2 with Power Weapons + Bolt Pistols
2 with Power Weapons + Storm Shields
1 Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist + Bolt Pistol
1 Rhino transport
——185pts——

Again, I know it sounds good on paper, but rhinos are not a reliable delivery method for assault units. Those dudes either need to be in a landraider, or else, they need jump packs.

Ironclad Dreadnought

What do you expect to do with this?

Drop pod him?

Assault Squad
9 Assault Marines
8 with Chainswords + Bolt Pistols
1 with Flamer
Sword Brother (Veteran Sergeant) with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
All with Jump Packs
——200pts——

Assault Squad
9 Assault Marines
8 with Chainswords + Bolt Pistols
1 with Flamer
Sword Brother (Veteran Sergeant) with Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
All with Jump Packs
——200pts——

Recommend second flamer on these squads

Devastator Squad
4 Devastator Marinea
2 with Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles
1 with Lascannon
1 with Heavy Bolter
1 Sergeant
Drop Pod
——185pts——

Devastator Squad
4 Devastator Marinea
2 with Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles
1 with Lascannon
1 with Heavy Bolter
1 Sergeant
Drop Pod
——185pts——

Total
370pts

Don't mix and match weapons. Heavy bolters are anti-infantry, whereas missile launchers and lascannons are more anti-tank. Pick a role (anti-tank, anti-MC or anti-tank, and stick with it).

If you run heavy bolters, you need 4 of them (though I strongly recommend against this). If you run missile launchers and lascannons, cut out the heavy bolters.

Also, if you're doing drop pods, have you considered running a sky hammer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One final point:

I'm noticing a marked lack of AP 1 and AP 2.

And a general lack of ways of dealing with tanks and monstrous creatures in general.

In this edition, bolters and chainswords won't win you games.

Good advice from this fellow here.

One more bit of advice.

Don't upgrade your sergeants to veteran sergeants. It's not worth the 10 points.

- Okay, I'll look at replacing the Devastators with both 4x Lascannons or maybe one with 4x Multi-meltas, this should hopefully help mitigate the lack of AT a bit.

- I'll look into getting some Land Raiders, although they might be a bit pricey for this list. I'll see what I can do, though. Should I need to go without them, would drop-pods be better, or old-fashioned footslogging?

- The Ironclad was meant to be in a Droppod from the start, but I lost sight of that. The purpose of the unit was to serve as a sudden AT distraction in order to get my Rhinos closer, or in the future case, a Land Raider. I could probably switch it out to a Venerable Dreadnought instead. If I did so, what weapons would you recommend?

- Second flamer, easily done.

- As I mentioned earlier, I'll probably go with more Lascannons/Multi-Meltas on the Devastators.

- I also mentioned in the OP that I would be using the Skyhammer force, so that's covered.

- Veterans can be dropped, sure, but what of the Sword Brothers in the Crusader squads? An extra power weapon and +1 A seems worth 25 points. Also what are your thoughts on Neophytes in the Crusader squads?

What you could do is run your assault units such as your crusader squads in Land raiders (crusaders for extra transport capacity) and the others with jump packs.

The way I run my crusader squads is to take 10 initiates 5 neophytes, give one initiate a power axe/sword and stick a chaplain in there for re rolls.

IMO the emperors champion isn't worth the points but he is fluffy I'd drop him for a bare bones chaplain just to run with the crusader squads.

If you can to deal with the AA issue take a Stormtalon I've enjoyed using mine when I play BT as it gives me a solid flyer choice.

Bikes are also good, probably better than assault marines as they are faster and can dish out more dakka! But that is my preference after using assault marines I moved over to the bikes.

A couple of things. Black Templars are not a terribly competitive space marine army at the moment, their aversion to the warp and libriarians in particular hurts them now as space marines tend to rely on physker powers unless they are running a battle company in which case they are playing for a totally different kind of army.

Now that being said black Templars can hold their own but you have to play to their strengths.

The new land raider formation can help, letting your squads get to their target. Filling them with 10 initiates + 5 neo's is good, if you get a chaplain in their even better. Having the high marshal in one squad can give you a devestating punch as all your marines rush out of land raiders on turn 2-3.

Contemptors with keires autocannons or storm talons are good answers to AA but as of yet fliers aren't terribly competitive, could be changing with all the new flyer rules coming out.

Personally I take a CAD with 3 land raider crusaders, 2 chaplains and two contemptors and one honor guard squad. The honor guard can ruin things in cc although they are high priced and only t4. The other squads overhelm with weight of dice. My dreadnought fires away and so do my land raiders. Nice thing is as dedicated transports they have objective secured which can be a real pain if you are able to neutralize their ability to deal with av14.

Interesting points, thanks for the help. How do you find Land Raider Crusaders hold up compared to their standard counterparts? Do you miss the lascannons very much?
I'm actually planning to grab a single LRC for a 750pt list, so another two could be thrown in later on...