Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So after reading through the FAQ and discussing it with my friends, they say that according to the FAQ units disembarking from a vehicle that jinked the previous turn count as having jinked and thus fire snapshots. Personally I feel that the wording is ambiguous and I find myself wondering if this result is the desired effect of the FAQ.

The reason I ask is because as an Eldar player, this ruling essentially makes D-Scythes worthless as you can't fire flamers when snapshooting. If the transport doesn't jink it's dead for sure, leaving the Wraithguard inside to be easily picked off making them a 320p cannonfodder. If the vehicle jinks, the end result is still the same, 320p of cannonfodder.

The wording in question that I find ambiguous is "Does a unit that is embarked on ... " and "Are passengers in Jinking Transports ... ". Does an embarked unit count as being passengers? Does the jink "transfer over" and remain even if they aren't passengers after disembarking? If this is the case, how do I even field this unit without having it reduced to being a very expensive meatshield?

Kheirn wrote:
The reason I ask is because as an Eldar player, this ruling essentially makes D-Scythes worthless as you can't fire flamers when snapshooting.

My heart bleeds.

This may have well been an intentional change to nerf this very thing. I think GW would have been better off separating rule clarifications and balance changes though, instead of lumping them all under the same grouping of "FAQ".

Yes, a unit embarked on a vehicle are Passengers on the vehicle. When they disembark they still get to snapshoot, I believe.

Take a risk. Dont jink the turn before you wish to disembark.

 GoonBandito wrote:

Kheirn wrote:
The reason I ask is because as an Eldar player, this ruling essentially makes D-Scythes worthless as you can't fire flamers when snapshooting.

My heart bleeds.

This may have well been an intentional change to nerf this very thing. I think GW would have been better off separating rule clarifications and balance changes though, instead of lumping them all under the same grouping of "FAQ".

Not arguing with that the WS + D-Scythe combo is really strong and should definitely be looked at, but it just feels like a really clumsy nerf that heavily affects the whole point of having Wave Serpents in the first place. You want to move in fast and get those Fire Dragons, Wraithguards or what have you in there to do some damage, but without being able to jink your unit will most likely end up dead. If you do jink and it survives, it can still only snapshot and will most likely be reduced to dust the next turn. Why even bother with it when you'll barely get any use from it? Sure, I'm no tactic expert and I might be missing an angle that reduces the implications of this change, but currently I have a really hard time seeing how you can get anything good out of it.

Buy holofields, and get a straight up 5+ Invul save then? Or welcome to Guard/Orks/Battle Sisters/Chaos Marines?

Imagine if the FAQ was drafted with armies having to face combinations like Wraithguard in Wave Serpents in mind.

Can't Wave Serpents deep strike? Or only Falcons?

Kheirn wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

Kheirn wrote:
The reason I ask is because as an Eldar player, this ruling essentially makes D-Scythes worthless as you can't fire flamers when snapshooting.

My heart bleeds.

This may have well been an intentional change to nerf this very thing. I think GW would have been better off separating rule clarifications and balance changes though, instead of lumping them all under the same grouping of "FAQ".

Not arguing with that the WS + D-Scythe combo is really strong and should definitely be looked at, but it just feels like a really clumsy nerf that heavily affects the whole point of having Wave Serpents in the first place. You want to move in fast and get those Fire Dragons, Wraithguards or what have you in there to do some damage, but without being able to jink your unit will most likely end up dead. If you do jink and it survives, it can still only snapshot and will most likely be reduced to dust the next turn. Why even bother with it when you'll barely get any use from it? Sure, I'm no tactic expert and I might be missing an angle that reduces the implications of this change, but currently I have a really hard time seeing how you can get anything good out of it.

It's a fast skimmer, buy Holo Fields so you don't need to jink and go flat out to get into your opponents deployment zone turn 1. With Wraithguard being T6 with a 3+ save you have almost nothing to fear from the WS going bang (which itself is unlikely with the Serpant Shield) and it's not hard to position yourself in such a way that not everything can shoot them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Can't Wave Serpents deep strike? Or only Falcons?

Only Falcons, and only with their formation.

Only Falcons, and only in units of 3.

Back to the actual point of the thread, I've been wondering this myself, particularly for Dark Eldar who are getting hit by the FAQ enough already.
Don't think we'll actually get anywhere though, as there are no real rules in play here aside from using the rule about Crew Stunned / Shaken effect on passengers. Just have to hope someone asks in the FB thing before it finishes being a draft.

Agreeing with everyone else here - this is exactly what the FAQ was setting out to do. Now, in my opinion, this was an errata, not just an FAQ, but the intention seems very clear. The vehicle weaves and makes sudden course and speed changes as it "jinks" to turn a hit into a miss. If the gunners in this vehicle are jostled around enough to disorientate them into Snap Shots, the passengers are equally jostled. On their turn, the passengers are still all disorientated, regardless of whether or not they stayed in the transport.

How fun: an eldar player that cries because his game winning tool has become a little less reliable. Oh no! Now you have to make actual tactical choices! That's bogus!
Sorry man, no hate intended but how should a poor dark eldar player take that? I tell you: in his face, BAM! :-)
While the OP peculiar build is still extra viable (T6, 3+, multiwounds models inside a re transport are NOT going to disappear in 1 round of shooting), to nerf that exact build, all other armies that relied on a bit of Jinking to survive and shoot, just got trown out of the window. Way to go, GW, way to go.
Sorry for the rant: the faq is clear, embarked units are passengers (unbeliavable) and will snapshoot, even after disembarking.

Does anyone have the wording of that specific FAQ available? Does it just say "embarked units" or "passengers IN a vehicle that Jink" must snap fire? Or does it say if the vehicle jinks, all embarked models snap fire in their next turn?
If that is the wording them I see no reason they would Snap fire after disembarking, as they are no longer "embarked" or "passengers", unless it specifies that they do so in their next turn.

Basically, is it being "in" a jinked vehicle that makes them snap fire (meaning that getting out will stop them from snap firing) or do they snap fire because the vehicle jinked while they were embarked?



Tactically side note: D-Scythe Wraithgaurd suck in a Transport either way, they should be using a Webway portal all day every day. Fun fact: An Archon with WWP and 1 unit of Kabalite warriors as your Allie Troop cost EXACTLY the same as a Wave Serpent w/ Holofields and Shuricannons. 6 Infantry models gets you exactly where you need to be AND gives you an ObSec unit to hide in the backfield.
And if you are opposed to Aliies, stop being silly; Eldar have WWPs too. Model the Archon as an Autarch and the Kabalites as Guardians

--

 Neferhet wrote:
(T6, 3+, multiwounds models inside a re transport are NOT going to disappear in 1 round of shooting)

Wraithguard only have one wound.

 Neferhet wrote:
How fun: an eldar player that cries because his game winning tool has become a little less reliable. Oh no! Now you have to make actual tactical choices! That's bogus!
Sorry man, no hate intended but how should a poor dark eldar player take that? I tell you: in his face, BAM! :-)
While the OP peculiar build is still extra viable (T6, 3+, multiwounds models inside a re transport are NOT going to disappear in 1 round of shooting), to nerf that exact build, all other armies that relied on a bit of Jinking to survive and shoot, just got trown out of the window. Way to go, GW, way to go.
Sorry for the rant: the faq is clear, embarked units are passengers (unbeliavable) and will snapshoot, even after disembarking.

I realize that my experience of Eldar's strength is tainted from playing almost exclusively against Tau. When I do, without jinking they're definitely dead turn 1. Not sure where you get the multiwound part from though, they have 1 wound each.

At any rate, this post isn't a "oh poor me, my unit has been nerfed", it's simply a question regarding rule wording. If you'd like to know, I've barely even had a chance to get much use from my Wraithguard even when jinking, seeing as they get focused down hard.

Galef: exact wording of the question breaks down to if the unit is embarked when the transport jinks, will the unit then count as having jinked in the next shooting phase.

The unit does not have to still be in the transport by the wording.

And a unit that was not in the transport as it jinks fires normally if it embarks in the movement

Besides Dark Eldar Webway Portals there is also the option of Corsair goodies. This does require that you make the Corsair prince your warlord, and requires a second HQ and a Troop unit. Taking a prince, a baron and two units of 3 Corsair Jetbikes each while equipping the HQs only with a Multiphase Key Generator and Jetbikes costs 280 Points. Of course you can take a boatload of further equipment if you like. The Baron has to be put into a unit which he cannot leave, the Prince is an IC.

This gives you two units of Jetbikes which move even more than Craftworld Jetbikes (6"+D6 in the shooting Phase after shooting). Both can use the Multiphase Key Generator to drop a Webway Gate instead of shooting. This is then a convenient location for any non-vehicle unit to walk onto the board or walk though it into ongoing reserves. Models with the Generator also gain the DS USR (with scatter), but can also start on the board, move up and then drop the webway gate, so that when reserves start arriving in turn 2, they have these locations as options to jump right into the opponents face.

I haven't tried this yet, but I think I'll give it a go. Should work great of wraithguard, wraithblade and -lords and would even work for wraithknights, but those don't usually have mobility problems.

If the Corsair units survive opening the webway portals, they can still scoot around the board enjoying objective secured or do some shooting if you spent a few more points on weapons for the jetbikes. Splinter cannons are available cheap for each bike in the unit.

That's the real problem with this FAQ there's so many things that just doesn't make sense. I've got this perfectly good melta bomb here oh wait someone else beat me to it guess I better just punch this rhino! Also everyone in the 40k verse gets motion sickness even after getting their feet on solid ground. The real head scratcher is if a unit jumps on a transport after it jinked last turn. They shoot fine but it should still be jinking at that point, hence the vehicle snap shooting.

Nice Hades, but logic and 40k are like oil and water.

[humor]Compare Eldar jink forcing passenger snapshots with Marines being unshaken and not impaired in the least after their droppod just went SPLAT! or for added hilarity with Skyhammer Marine shooting actually improved after they rode the capsule into the ground. [/humor]

With an active serpent shield, the chances of a serpent actual exploding are also very low even when not jinking

On the positive side of this, the disembarked models count as jinking which gives them a 4+ cover save. This is good for wraithblades, howling banshees, wyches and some other units.
Gaining a 4+ cover save from overwatch shots is pretty good against many opponents.

do they count as jinking or just as having had to jink (but without the benefits) - a bit like the juggerlord in a bike unit. I don't know anyone got any thoughts?

Now that you bring that up; had to look at the rule again for wording.

FAQ is ultimately pointless unless models in the transport have the jink special rule(can matter with bikes in a thunderhawk):

Jink goes unit containing at least 1 model with special rule can do the thing when targeted, with some very specific timing restrictions. Benefit+negative is only for models with the special rule.

So, for example, a chaplain on a bike joins a tactical squad, they get targeted, player declares jink; only the chaplain gets the cover save and only the chaplain has to snap shot.

OP: your d-scythes are unaffected.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Now that you bring that up; had to look at the rule again for wording.

FAQ is ultimately pointless unless models in the transport have the jink special rule(can matter with bikes in a thunderhawk):

Jink goes unit containing at least 1 model with special rule can do the thing when targeted, with some very specific timing restrictions. Benefit+negative is only for models with the special rule.

So, for example, a chaplain on a bike joins a tactical squad, they get targeted, player declares jink; only the chaplain gets the cover save and only the chaplain has to snap shot.

OP: your d-scythes are unaffected.

RAW I think that is correct. It is very specific that things only get the cover save and snap fire if they actually have the rule. Status effects in 40k are just really weird. They don't have any general rules about them and instead are scattered all throughout the other rules. Intuitively you would think that something that is jinking gets all the benefits and penalties of jinking. Just like you would if a unit went to ground, or if a unit was pinned.

There is just about nothing that can jink and goes inside transports that can jink. Tau drones from the drone net formation are the only thing that comes to mind. I don't think the intention of the FAQ was to clarify that. It is really more likely that they intend for passengers to get the benefits, and penalties of jinking. I've played D-scythe wraithguard based lists since the FAQ and I actually think I like this better. It was such a no brainer to always jink before. Having to think about it every turn was definitely something i enjoyed.

It was still super strong. I beat a fairly strong tau list, and a Daemon tetrad list.

Can't speak of their intentions; but it does continue the theme of the transported unit counting as whatever the transport does.

There is another situation where it could have an actual effect: disembarking and then being joind by an IC who can jink. Thw status of jinking is based on a unit action, so the IC that joins receives the bonus and negs.

But I thought the problem wasn't that the unit inside the transports was jinking, but merely a victim of the side effect of the transport vehicle unit that was jinking. Similar to a shaken result on a transported unit that suffers a 1-3 on the pen chart.

All the FAQ states is that the unit counts as having jinked.

The jink rule only effects(both the cover save and the snap shots) models with the jink rule.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
All the FAQ states is that the unit counts as having jinked.

The jink rule only effects(both the cover save and the snap shots) models with the jink rule.

I assumed the FAQ that passengers would get the bad but not the good. That is in line of other examples.

Most did, or at least the bad and the good but could never make use of the good(outside of having the jinking transport get destroyed and the unit disembarks in that shooting phase to be shot at).

But that is ignoring and applying the jink rule improperly.

Take this example: you have a tactical squad joined by a chaplain on a bike, they get targeted and declare a jink. The unit jinks, but only the chaplain gets the cover save, and only the chaplain snapshots. That is exactly what the jink rule says. The Wraithguard in a jinking wave serpent is no different: the unit jinks, but ultimately nothing happens to them.

This is a different scenario. Did the unit jink in the previous turn? Yes, they did. What rules do a jinking unit follow in the shooting phase?

This looks quite clear to me.

Naw wrote:
This is a different scenario. Did the unit jink in the previous turn? Yes, they did. What rules do a jinking unit follow in the shooting phase?

This looks quite clear to me.

Yes very clear.

What rules do a jinking unit follow in the shooting phase?

Models with the jink rule can only fire snap shots.

The cover save and the snap shots are both parts of 1 sentence which tells us it is only the models with the jink rule that get them.