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I've decided to reinvigorate my project to look into making changes to the C:SM, and one of my Achilles Heels is making points costs appropriate. So here's the situation: I have a bunch of weapons that I have either created myself or modified and have an idea of what I think they should cost, but I'm willing to bet that I'm probably mis-costing them and thus am asking for your help deciding on points costs. So here goes:
I think the cost should remain the same (10 Pts), though I could understand it being increased to as far as 15 because it's not Salvo instead of Heavy.
I'm thinking that Salvo 1/2 may not be the best option here, but I feel it's better than Heavy 1. I also thought it should remain at 15 Pts.
Dreadnought Missile Launcher
Spoiler:
This is a weapon of my own creation and is treated the same as a Missile Launcher w/ Flakk Missiles with the following changes/additions:
-- Frag and Krak Missiles are now Heavy 2 instead of Heavy 1.
-- It has the following additional profiles:
Range: 48" -- Strength: 3 -- AP: < None > -- Rules: Heavy 1, Large Blast, Thunderous Power;
Thunderous Power If a squadron of three Dreadnoughts are all equipped with Dreadnought Missile Pods which have not been destroyed and are not Snap Firing, then the Infantry Scatterer may be upgraded to one of the following profiles:
Earth Shaker --- Range: 36" -- Strength: 6 -- AP: < None > -- Rules: Heavy 1, Large Blast, One Use Only;
Infantry Annihilator --- Range: 36" -- Strength: 3 -- AP: < None > -- Rules: Heavy 3, Large Blast, One Use Only;
Note: The Earth Shaker and Infantry Annihilator profiles are mutually exclusive, meaning that only one may be used per squadron during the course of the game.
Now, I have no idea how much this should cost, but I'm thinking that it's at least worth 25 Pts/model (with 35 Pts/model being my current cost for it). For the record, it's available on Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts but not Ironclad Dreadnoughts
Hunter-Killer Missile Launcher
Spoiler:
This is essentially a Hunter-Killer Missile, but instead of having the One Use Only Rule and Infinite Range, it has a 48" Range and the Sunder Special Rule wich says:
Attacks made using a weapon with this Special Rule may re-roll failed Armour Penetration rolls. This Special Rule has no affect on non-vehicle targets.
I feel that this should remain at 10 Pts.
Siege Shield
Spoiler:
A Siege Shield may be destroyed as a result of a Weapon Destroyed result on the Vehicle Damage Table. Furthermore, a vehicle equipped with a Siege Shield receives the following bonuses:
-- Automatically passes all Dangerous Terrain Tests.
-- A +1 Modifier to its Front Armour.
-- A Cover Save (6+) against Ballistic Attacks made against the vehicle’s Front Armour.
If the Siege Shield is destroyed, then all of the above bonuses no longer apply.
I think this should cost a minimum of 20 - 25 Pts, with my current cost for it being 30 Pts.
So are these points costs OK? Should they be changed? What are your recommendations?
I don't really have the time to fully analyze these right now, but I'd say the Storm Bolter, even buffed as it is, should be no more than 10 points. The closest parallels are the Tyranid Deathspitter (overcosted) and the Tau Burst Cannon (which is about 10 points, most of the time, and priced about right).
Make plasma cannons Salvo 1/1 and keep it 15. Everything you modified stays the same price. Siege shield is worth 25 points. The dreadnought missile launcher costs whatever it costs now. Heavy 2 isn't that big of a boon and it should have been there in the first place. The special ammo isn't even that good.
Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
2k 3k 100 Vostroyan Firstborn 1k 1.25 k
2016/07/09 14:41:00
Subject: Re:How Much Would You Cost These Weapons?
Make a plasma pistol 10? That way it's not an auto take but is at least viable? I'd like 7-8 better but thatd just make me crazy having 1848 point lists
Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
2k 3k 100 Vostroyan Firstborn 1k 1.25 k
2016/07/09 16:29:17
Subject: Re:How Much Would You Cost These Weapons?
The Plasma Cannon sucks because of the Blast rules. Most small blasts suck for that reason.
Otherwise, I'm happy someone agrees with me about Storm Bolters, but it probably shouldn't be TL'd. S5 is fine enough and then the fluffbunnies won't be punished when their Imperial Fists buy them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, any pistol variant is worth 10 MAX and realistically worth 5. 7 is a good compromise, though a strange number.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/09 17:28:30
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Plasma Cannon sucks because of the Blast rules. Most small blasts suck for that reason.
Otherwise, I'm happy someone agrees with me about Storm Bolters, but it probably shouldn't be TL'd. S5 is fine enough and then the fluffbunnies won't be punished when their Imperial Fists buy them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, any pistol variant is worth 10 MAX and realistically worth 5. 7 is a good compromise, though a strange number.
I'm willing to go 8. Still not sure how much I'd use it. Too much cover around that still gives save vs the plasma pistol.
pm713 wrote: I do find it strange that in a thread about fixing weapon prices we haven't mentioned the infamous plasma pistol.
The main reason I excluded it was because I made changes to these weapons (or in the case of the Dreadnought Missile Pod, heavily modified the Missile Launcher). So for the Plasma Pistol itself, 10 Points seems reasonable because 5 Points is too cheap for it, any more than 10 Points is too expensive, and since nearly all options for models/units in the C:SM are costed at multiples of 5 Points, having a 7 or 8 point upgrade makes very little sense to me. As pm713 said, you end up with these points that you can't fill because options that cost that amount simply don't exist.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Otherwise, I'm happy someone agrees with me about Storm Bolters, but it probably shouldn't be TL'd. S5 is fine enough and then the fluffbunnies won't be punished when their Imperial Fists buy them.
I'm not particularly happy with the S5 change, but it seems to be the best solution to help differential it from the the Boltgun and the Heavy Bolter. As for Twin-Linked, I thought that could work, but maybe that should be reserved for relic-level Storm Bolters.
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:Make plasma cannons Salvo 1/1 and keep it 15. Siege shield is worth 25 points.
Fair enough.
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:The dreadnought missile launcher costs whatever it costs now.
Well considering it's a custom weapon, do you mean that it should cost 35 pts/model (my current cost for it) or 25 pts/model (my suggested minimum points cost)?
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:Heavy 2 isn't that big of a boon and it should have been there in the first place. The special ammo isn't even that good.
By 'special ammo', do you mean the Thunderous Power options? If so, what would you improve (or would you remove them)?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/09 22:43:48
I mean the dreadnought already has a missile launcher upgrade and it costs what that currently is. Pretty much take the vanilla one and upgrade it with what you made up. I think it's like 5 points or something?
To improve the Thunderous Power options I'd give them ap 3 on the earth shaker and ap 6 on the infantry annihilator. You're already taking 3 dreadnoughts with sub-optimal weapon options you might as well make the once per game shot worth while.
Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
Storm Bolter being buffed makes no sense fluffwise as its literally two bolters next to each other. It would have the adverse effect of giving vehicles stronger power because many imperial vehicles can take them and making Chaos weaker as they can't take them.
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:I mean the dreadnought already has a missile launcher upgrade and it costs what that currently is. Pretty much take the vanilla one and upgrade it with what you made up. I think it's like 5 points or something?
To improve the Thunderous Power options I'd give them ap 3 on the earth shaker and ap 6 on the infantry annihilator. You're already taking 3 dreadnoughts with sub-optimal weapon options you might as well make the once per game shot worth while.
It's 10 pts/model for the normal Missile Launcher for a (Venerable) Dreadnought and you can't take Flakk Missiles on either Dreadnought because it doesn't give you that option. I figure 25 pts/model is a good price (or at least a good minimum) given the upgrade to Heavy 2 (for Krak and Frag), the auto-inclusion of Flakk, and the Thunderous Power options. 15 - 20 pts/model seems a bit low to me, but considering I haven't play-tested this yet, it could be a very reasonable points cost.
As for the AP Values, I can agree with the AP 3 for the Earth Shaker, but considering the Infantry Annihilator is already Heavy 3 Large Blast, I'm a little hesitant making it AP anything.
Cptn_Cronssant wrote:Storm Bolter being buffed makes no sense fluffwise as its literally two bolters next to each other. It would have the adverse effect of giving vehicles stronger power because many imperial vehicles can take them and making Chaos weaker as they can't take them.
The way I'm justifying the Strength increase fluff-wise is the fact that you're firing two Bolter Shells at once. As I said before, tabletop-wise I justify it by trying to properly differentiate it from a regular Boltgun.
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:I mean the dreadnought already has a missile launcher upgrade and it costs what that currently is. Pretty much take the vanilla one and upgrade it with what you made up. I think it's like 5 points or something?
To improve the Thunderous Power options I'd give them ap 3 on the earth shaker and ap 6 on the infantry annihilator. You're already taking 3 dreadnoughts with sub-optimal weapon options you might as well make the once per game shot worth while.
It's 10 pts/model for the normal Missile Launcher for a (Venerable) Dreadnought and you can't take Flakk Missiles on either Dreadnought because it doesn't give you that option. I figure 25 pts/model is a good price (or at least a good minimum) given the upgrade to Heavy 2 (for Krak and Frag), the auto-inclusion of Flakk, and the Thunderous Power options. 15 - 20 pts/model seems a bit low to me, but considering I haven't play-tested this yet, it could be a very reasonable points cost.
As for the AP Values, I can agree with the AP 3 for the Earth Shaker, but considering the Infantry Annihilator is already Heavy 3 Large Blast, I'm a little hesitant making it AP anything.
Cptn_Cronssant wrote:Storm Bolter being buffed makes no sense fluffwise as its literally two bolters next to each other. It would have the adverse effect of giving vehicles stronger power because many imperial vehicles can take them and making Chaos weaker as they can't take them.
The way I'm justifying the Strength increase fluff-wise is the fact that you're firing two Bolter Shells at once. As I said before, tabletop-wise I justify it by trying to properly differentiate it from a regular Boltgun.
I think 15 would be fair. 5 points for flak and an extra shot seems reasonable. The reason I say no points increase over a missile launcher on a tac or devastator is that dreadnoughts are already such expensive models, 1 shooting attack at str 8 ap 3 is pretty bad. And don't forget, for you to evem get access to the special shots you need at least 3 dreadnoughts in a squadron, ALL with missile launchers. I've literally never seen that playing 40k. Ever. At least make it a worthwhile build because for the same points (20-25) they could take an ap 2, str 9 lascannon. And ap 6 really isn't that crazy. If you think about it it should be ap 5 because it's 3 big Frag grenades being shot into the enemy ranks. And it's only str 3. If I'm going to squadron 3 dreads with missile launchers I want my once per game shot to be worth it. I want it to kill more than 7 orks.
Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
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~4000 
