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Hi,

This is more of a question about the wording in the specifics for the Iron wolves formation.
It said in it that you need to bring dedicated transport to fit all non vechical models, (not sure about the exact wording, don't have the book nearby).

Does this mean that I can have the Stormship transport that can transport 16 models and have 3 diffrent units of 5 Blood Claws on the field.
Or do I need seperate dedicated transport for the 3 units of claws?

The formation requires you to, "include enough Dedicated Transports with sufficient Transport Capacity to carry all non-vehicle models" the Formation.

The rules for Transport Capacity including being able to carry a single Infantry unit, meaning, unless the Stormwolf has a rule allowing it to carry multiple units, you're required to have a Dedicated Transport for each unit.

Thanks for making that clear as day!

Mr shine is dead wrong.

The formation doesn't care if each unit has it's own transport(several models cannot).

The formation doesn't require you to ever embark.

It only cares about total model capacity.

Don't forget the draft FAQ errata which states that you ignore units of Wolf Scouts and Lone Wolves for the purposes of these Restrictions.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Mr shine is dead wrong.

The formation doesn't care if each unit has it's own transport(several models cannot).

The formation doesn't require you to ever embark.

It only cares about total model capacity.

Basic Transport Capacity rules also includes Units as well as models, though. The second sentence is, "Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity." That is something to keep in mind when review this rule. Of course, GW may not have thought of this, either.

Yes, Christoph, I am well aware that transports can only carry a single unit at a time(with some exceptions).

But the Restrictions in the formation have nothing to do with units; just enough capacity in DTs for all the models.

Transport Capacity is a stat included in Transport subtypes, listing the number of models that can be transported; and the restriction is only on the number of models(i.e. that value added up as equal or higher than the number of models in the formation).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes, Christoph, I am well aware that transports can only carry a single unit at a time(with some exceptions).

But the Restrictions in the formation have nothing to do with units; just enough capacity in DTs for all the models.

Transport Capacity is a stat included in Transport subtypes, listing the number of models that can be transported; and the restriction is only on the number of models(i.e. that value added up as equal or higher than the number of models in the formation).

Then you missed my point. Base Transport Capacity rules are # of models AND 1 unit. This can be changed as seen in the Storm Raven which can carry two units as defined in its Transport Capacity section.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Mr shine is dead wrong.

The formation doesn't care if each unit has it's own transport(several models cannot).

The formation doesn't require you to ever embark.

It only cares about total model capacity.

Pardon?

From 'Transport Capacity' in the rulebook:

"Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded. A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity."

So I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong.

Look to the first line in your quote.

Now look in the brb right above the section you quoted.

Transport capacity is a value; that value is the number of models that the tranport can carry.

The next sentence tells you that transports can only carry a single unit plus attached ICs.

The carrying of a single unit has nothing to do with the capacity being at least the number of non-vehicle models in the formation.

Let me ask you if you feel the following is legal or not: 2 units of blood claws, 1 is 7-strong, the other is 8. One takes a rhino, the other a razorback. Is this legal?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Look to the first line in your quote.

Now look in the brb right above the section you quoted.

Transport capacity is a value; that value is the number of models that the tranport can carry.

The next sentence tells you that transports can only carry a single unit plus attached ICs.

The carrying of a single unit has nothing to do with the capacity being at least the number of non-vehicle models in the formation.

Let me ask you if you feel the following is legal or not: 2 units of blood claws, 1 is 7-strong, the other is 8. One takes a rhino, the other a razorback. Is this legal?

Where is the rule for one unit per Transport?

If a Transport is allowed to carry more than one unit on its own (i.e. ignoring Combat Squad for this discussion), is this in Transport Capacity or not?

Where is the Storm Raven rule that allows it to carry two units?

If you have two 5-man Grey Hunter Squads, but only one Rhino, do you have sufficient Transport Capacity to carry all ten of those models?

Carrying one unit is not defined as Transport Capacity

"up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity"
Is the operative line. Carrying one unit is not the Transport Capacity, the number of models is the Transport Capacity

Transport Capacity absolutely does include the number of units a vehicle may carry as passengers.

Why? Note that the 'Datasheets' sections we've become used to in 7th edition codices has no explanation of the 'Transport' section present in transport vehicles' datasheets.

That being the case, where do we find explanation of these characteristics? Only with reference to the very beginning of the 'Transports' section:

"Transports have several additional characteristics: Transport Capacity, Fire Points and Access Points."

The 'Transport Capacity' rules make it clear that the number of units a transport may have as passengers forms a factor of its Transport Capacity characteristic.

In my last example; what is the transport capacity of the rhino? Then what is the transport capacity of the razorback?

Relevant to the Restrictions; how many models do I have in the example?

And Christoph; your last question: yes, just not at the same time.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
In my last example; what is the transport capacity of the rhino? Then what is the transport capacity of the razorback?

One Infantry unit of up to 10 models and one Infantry unit of up to six models, respectively.

Relevant to the Restrictions; how many models do I have in the example?

You have two units each of less than 10 but more than six models, meaning the two Dedicated Transports have insufficient Transport Capacity to carry them.

"You must include enough Dedicated Transports with sufficient Transport Capacity to carry all non-vehicle models from this Formation."

I'm surprised if that didn't get covered in the latest FAQ.

Still, unless you're taking full squads of Blood Claws and Razorbacks it's pretty hard not to stay legal with the Iron Wolves even by the most TFG standards.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Carrying one unit is not defined as Transport Capacity

"up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity"
Is the operative line. Carrying one unit is not the Transport Capacity, the number of models is the Transport Capacity

Please review those questions I asked, and answer them properly.

Where is the rule for one unit per Transport? Transport Capacity.

If a Transport is allowed to carry more than one unit on its own (i.e. ignoring Combat Squad for this discussion), is this in Transport Capacity or not? It is stated in the Transport Capacity or a Special Rule which refers back to the previously mentioned Transport Capacity rule.

Where is the Storm Raven rule that allows it to carry two units? In its Transport Capacity.

If you have two 5-man Grey Hunter Squads, but only one Rhino, do you have sufficient Transport Capacity to carry all ten of those models? No, you do not, as a Rhino still only has the Capacity for one unit.

Kommissar Kel wrote:And Christoph; your last question: yes, just not at the same time.

So what you are saying is a single Land Raider Crusader (if available as a DT for one of the units) would be sufficient for the purposes of this rule, since they don't all have to be carried at the same time. The question was all ten of those models. Your answer only allows for 5.

Does the restriction require the models to start in the dts?

Does the restriction say it requires 1 dt per unit?

Does the restriction concern itself with units in any way?

Does the restriction limit the wolf lord from taking a bike, jump pack, twm, or wolves?

Does the restriction say you must take at least one DT other than a rhino or a razorback if you give the wolf lord termi armour?

Does the restriction force the wolf lord to join any units?

The answer is no to all of these.

The restriction is only concerned with the number of models in relation to capacity from dts

The question posed by the restriction is: I have 10 models, can my dt carry 10 models?

The Transport Capacity is the number of models. Not the number of units. The last line is what defines this.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Does the restriction require the models to start in the dts?

Nope, just sufficient to carry all non-Vehicle models. Can you carry all non-Vehicle models if some are required to be left out because they are in separate units?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Does the restriction say it requires 1 dt per unit?

Not directly, however, it also doesn't state you can fit two units in a Transport, either.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Does the restriction concern itself with units in any way?

I repeat, can you carry all non-Vehicle models if some are required to be left out because they are in separate units?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Does the restriction limit the wolf lord from taking a bike, jump pack, twm, or wolves?

I don't think so. But hey, there are often ramifications of these Restrictions that are not often explicit, either, so long as we keep in mind the other rules already established (something the FAQ team needs to do more of).

Kommissar Kel wrote:Does the restriction say you must take at least one DT other than a rhino or a razorback if you give the wolf lord termi armour?

Apparently, since you need to fit all of these models in, or as in the case of the question above, do not upgrade the Wolf Lord so he cannot Embark.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Does the restriction force the wolf lord to join any units?

Not as far as I know, but then, the Wolf Lord is an IC, and that is covered in Transport Capacity and Dedicated Transport rules, so I don't see the point in bringing it up, other than, room must be allocated to account for him, though.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The restriction is only concerned with the number of models in relation to capacity from dts

Incorrect. The restriction is to carry all the models, and the number of units is a base definition of Transport Capacity.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The Transport Capacity is the number of models. Not the number of units. The last line is what defines this.

Which last line are you speaking of? The detachment restriction or one of the paragraphs of Transport Capacity?

If the detachment restriction, where does it state to ignore the base Transport Capacity rule of one unit?

Do you think the following is legal: 8 man blood claws with a razorback; 5 man blood claws with a rhino, wolf Lord.

What about having the lord in termi armor

And yes, brought up the lord (in the last batch of questions) because room must be allocated to him; for that room to be allocated to him we must be looking at the characteristic on the datasheet: the numbers. Or do you think that every unit has to leave space for him in their dts?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Do you think the following is legal: 8 man blood claws with a razorback; 5 man blood claws with a rhino, wolf Lord.

That would be sufficient. There are sufficient Transport Capacity, in both models and units, to carry all the models. Unless they were required to be Embarked for some reason (at which point, just tweaking the list would be sufficient).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What about having the lord in termi armor

There is insufficient Transport Capacity to carry the Lord, now, isn't there? The Rhino and Razorback cannot carry the Terminator model, after all.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And yes, brought up the lord (in the last batch of questions) because room must be allocated to him; for that room to be allocated to him we must be looking at the characteristic on the datasheet: the numbers. Or do you think that every unit has to leave space for him in their dts?

No, not all units would not have to have room, just one for every Wolf Lord. Wolf Lords are ICs, so can join any other unit on a Transport (indeed, MUST if they are both on a Transport in most cases), so the unit restriction doesn't apply and only the model capacity is in consideration.

There is capacity available for the lord; the rhino has a capacity of 10 and there is only a unit of 8 and a unit of 5, he is just not allowed to embark on it.

But how about if I throw in a third blood claws unit with 10 guys and a drop pod? Is it legal now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also; Model Capacity?

What is this Model Capacity?

Is that a rule you are making up to distinguish between the number of models listed in the Transport Capacity and the Number of units that can be carried?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
There is capacity available for the lord; the rhino has a capacity of 10 and there is only a unit of 8 and a unit of 5, he is just not allowed to embark on it.

But neither Rhino nor Razorback have the Transport Capacity to carry a Bulky model. Correct, or not?

Transport Capacity: Six models. It cannot carry models with the Bulky, Very Bulky or Extremely Bulky special rules.

Transport Capacity: Ten models. It cannot carry models with the Bulky, Very Bulky or Extremely Bulky special rules.

Seems not.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
But how about if I throw in a third blood claws unit with 10 guys and a drop pod? Is it legal now?

That's a stickier one. If they were required to Deploy in them, of course not, but this one... I would still say no. What has the Transport Capacity of carrying the Wolf Lord cannot carry the Wolf Lord.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also; Model Capacity?

What is this Model Capacity?

Is that a rule you are making up to distinguish between the number of models listed in the Transport Capacity and the Number of units that can be carried?

No capitalization, so no I am not making up a rule. I am referring to the capacity of models that the Transport Capacity of the Vehicle in question is providing. I was cutting down the explanation that I though would have been obvious in the context of the discussion and sentence.

You said the 8 guys with a razorback(which does not have the capacity to carry) and the 5 guys with a Rhino(which has a capacity of 10) would be legal; so why would you reverse that when the termi lord has a vehicle that can carry him, just not with the squad it was bought for(which was also at max for the pod)?

The units all have the correct sizes for one of the dts; it is just that the dts were bought for the wrong units.

None of the units are ever required to embark; the capacity for the models(yes that "model capacity" you stated) has to be there.

If you re-kajigger the units you could have the 5 man in the Razorback, the 10 in the rhino and the 8 with the bulky lord in the pod. But since none of them have to start the game/deployment/reserves in any transport; the number of units vs model capacity has no bearing.


And I cacapitalized "model capacity" to point out that you were trying to make a distinction between the characteristic Transport Capacity, and the written bit that explains that characteristic(which actually is my position;the restriction is only asking for the numeric value of the characteristic)


But now I see you are just arbitrarily adding to the written rrstriction in any way that you can to support what you want. You have argued and agreed yourself into a corner and now you just look rabid. You said it in the response about all units needing to leave room for the lord: "only the model capacity(characteristic on the datasheet) is in consideration."

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You said the 8 guys with a razorback(which does not have the capacity to carry) and the 5 guys with a Rhino(which has a capacity of 10) would be legal; so why would you reverse that when the termi lord has a vehicle that can carry him, just not with the squad it was bought for(which was also at max for the pod)?

The units all have the correct sizes for one of the dts; it is just that the dts were bought for the wrong units.

None of the units are ever required to embark; the capacity for the models(yes that "model capacity" you stated) has to be there.

If you re-kajigger the units you could have the 5 man in the Razorback, the 10 in the rhino and the 8 with the bulky lord in the pod. But since none of them have to start the game/deployment/reserves in any transport; the number of units vs model capacity has no bearing.

What can a Dedicated Transport Drop Pod carry? Its unit and any attached ICs. Can you bring an IC in to it without the unit? No, you cannot. Unlike the Rhino and Razorback, only one unit can ever ride a Dedicated Transport Drop Pod. So, basically, the Drop Pod dedicated to a ten man unit has no Transport Capacity for any IC, much less a Terminator IC.

This may have not been the intention, or it may have. I can't say. The drunken monkeys don't talk about their dart boards.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And I cacapitalized "model capacity" to point out that you were trying to make a distinction between the characteristic Transport Capacity, and the written bit that explains that characteristic(which actually is my position;the restriction is only asking for the numeric value of the characteristic)

So, you thought you would try and make it an attack while you continue to ignore numerous other things in the Transport Capacity rules. I didn't capitalize it because I knew there was not specifically named rule regarding it, but you arbitrarily capitalized it. I also notice that you do not actually bring up anything actually written in the books to counter what has been said. Just because you do not understand what I am saying and why I am saying it does not mean I am making it up. Usually you are sharper than this.

Transport Capacity rules start saying they have a limit to its capacity. It then says that a Transport can only carry a single unit and Independent Characters up to the model count of its capacity. A unit must be completely Embarked or not at all. The next paragraph talks about the restrictions or allowances that the Transport Capacity details.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
But now I see you are just arbitrarily adding to the written restriction in any way that you can to support what you want. You have argued and agreed yourself into a corner and now you just look rabid. You said it in the response about all units needing to leave room for the lord: "only the model capacity(characteristic on the datasheet) is in consideration."

I am not being arbitrary. I am trying to take all the rules in to account instead of focusing on one thing. You arbitrarily dismiss that the Transport Capacity rules limit Transport Capacity to one. You arbitrarily dismiss that a Dedicated Transport can only Deploy with the unit it was purchased with. You arbitrarily dismiss that a Drop Pod can only carry a unit while in Reserves and deploying, and no other unit may Embark on it afterwards, while a Rhino and Razorback passengers can play musical Transports for half the game. Few rules operate in a vacuum, and Transport Capacity is definitely not one of them.

I have not dismissed that the Transport capacity rules limit a transport from carrying more than 1 unit at a time. That is just not what the restriction is asking.

I am not dismissing that a DT can only deploy with the unit it was purchased with. The restriction does not require it to; nor for any of the units to ever embark.

You are dismissing that the restriction is only based on models, not units.

I have brought up things actually written in the books; namely the actual restriction. That restriction was quoted in the second post. I then explained various relations of units and their dts using the restriction's limited scope of models in the formation.

You accept that the Rhino and the Razorback limit bulky models. You accept that the drop pod has a special rule that disallows units from embarking after it arrives and that dts can only deploy with their own units as why you claim that list to be illegal. The Rhino and Razorback bit is used as an example in the brb(strangely enough has nothing to do with carrying, only a restriction against "model types" from embarking, and the transports in question saw a change in rules after that was written) and poorly at that. The Dt restrictions and the drop pod denial of other units embarking later have nothing to do with transport capacity.

And again; if not every units transport capacity has to have room for the wolf lord, then the restriction must not have anything to do with the expanded rules for transport capacity and only be discussing the value of the characteristic. You even said so yourself. But, please, keep trying to misdirect away from your own quote.

As to the SW FAQ(it was brought up by someone else way back in the first handfull of posts); that is an errata to the restriction stating those models do not count. That could have as much to do with every unit needing their own dt(wolf scouts and lone wolves have no access to any); or it could have to do with not limiting other unit's sizes to meet total characteristic values. As you said: monkeys and dartboards.

Its really easy.
1- Make your list.
2- Make sure you can put all your non vehicle models in the dedicated transports (scouts and lone wolfs are ignored).

Now, if the second part is not fulfilled, you are not able to benefit from the "iron wolves" formation bonuses.

The idea that "one unit+IC" restriction is not part of the "capacity" concept/rule is just absurd wishful thinking in my oppinion.

The only way to possibly argue for joined capacity is using some carpool fluff arguing that SW combat squad just before the battle.

-Units dont share the nubered transport capacity.
-SW can not go into "combat squad"
So why would you be able to when making this formation?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I have not dismissed that the Transport capacity rules limit a transport from carrying more than 1 unit at a time. That is just not what the restriction is asking.

I am not dismissing that a DT can only deploy with the unit it was purchased with. The restriction does not require it to; nor for any of the units to ever embark.

Actually, you have, because you are focusing only on:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are dismissing that the restriction is only based on models, not units.

And these rules do not dismiss or counter any other basic rule aside from the options for purchasing Dedicated Transports. I could well be wrong on the Rhino and Razorback question, and the intent of the drunken monkeys was that each unit and model be able to (but not required to) start the game Embarked, but that is as far as I would say it goes.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And again; if not every units transport capacity has to have room for the wolf lord, then the restriction must not have anything to do with the expanded rules for transport capacity and only be discussing the value of the characteristic. You even said so yourself. But, please, keep trying to misdirect away from your own quote.

That is a HUGE stretch since the basic rules which we are requested to review actually cover those things I have talked about, and nothing in that Restriction counters it, even indirectly. It does not state to ignore Unit limitations of Transport Capacity. It does not state to ignore the other systems enplaced by the Transports themselves in their rules, either. But go ahead and try to misdirect away from all the rules in place before the detachment's restrictions come in to play and do not address.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
As to the SW FAQ(it was brought up by someone else way back in the first handfull of posts); that is an errata to the restriction stating those models do not count. That could have as much to do with every unit needing their own dt(wolf scouts and lone wolves have no access to any); or it could have to do with not limiting other unit's sizes to meet total characteristic values. As you said: monkeys and dartboards.

Yeah, and unfortunately that FAQ gives no indication as to why they get to ignore the Restriction as opposed to being denied use in the detachment in the first place.

We both agree that GW is pretty bad at writing rules in a coherent and consistent matter.

Honestly, at this point, I just don't want to argue with you anymore. I respect your opinions, and something I have not said in this thread yet is that the intent of the restrictions and special rules of the formation are pretty clear that you should be taking as many DTs as possible.

I have been arguing the lack of clarity; you have a numeric value in the characteristic, and you have the explanation for how to use that characteristic in game.

Use in game has little to do with list creation. And that is the last I am going to say about any of this.

OP: talk to your play group, decide how you want to play it. That is the best we can do with civility.