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Who wins?

Lets assume both units have 5 models and around the same cost.
Incubi have a Klaivex
Scorpions have an Exarch w/ Scorpions Claw

Advantages - Scorpions
Scorpions have grenades and pistols, meaning they can potentially wait in cover and pop shots at the Incubi, potentially killing 1 before combat. Once the Incubi are close enough, the Scorpions can charge, although it may be worth sitting in the terrain and getting charged as Incubi will go last.
The Exarch may even be able to kill all the Incubi before any of them Strike.

Advantages - Incubi
Higher WS and AP2 should make short work of the Scorpions, while most of the Scorpions attacks should bounce off, especially in later turns when the Incubi will have FNP. The shooting range of the Scorpions is only 12", so the Incubi can shirt around them unit turn 3.
Klaivex having Rampage may actually come in handy as it is likely the Incubi may lose a model or 2 coming into the combat.The trick with the Incubi is making sure they don't go last because of terrain.

Any thoughts?

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 Galef wrote:


The Exarch may even be able to kill all the Incubi before any of them Strike.

Before the Incubi begin... striking scorpions? A HAR HAR HAR!

I'm so sorry.

But I'm really not.

I do feel like the scorpion claw would do a lot to put this in the hands of the scorpions, though.

Scorpions also have a guaranteed first attack with mandiblasters.

The Exarch isnt killing all 5 with the Claw unless he gets the charge *and* stupidly lucky (hits all 5 and wounds all 5). Assuming the Incubi squad leader is I5 (oops thought he was i6) and accepts the challenge (at I5, why not).

The Claw does heavily skew this in the Scorpions favor, though.

That's what I was thinking. And the Klaivex is I6, I think. So He might strike before the Exarch (or at the same time, I forget if Exarchs are I5 or I6). In either case, the Exarch wouldn't get any extra attacks for his Challenge special rule.

Mandiblasters are good, although they only have an average chance of killing 1 Incubi, less than average if FNP is up.

Best Case Scenario for Incubi: They get the charge on turn 3+ (out of cover). Klaivex kills the Exarch in a challenge.

You hit the nail on the head though with the cover. As the scorpion player even with a 12" range on the pistols I would be content to just sit and plink away at you and would not want to come out of cover ever, forcing you to charge me (thus allowing me to swing first)

Remove all cover from the equation and I feel the combat swings in favor of the Incubi.

But why are we fighting each other when there's maiden worlds to reclaim and our former glory to restore? (I'm a Biel-Tan player can't you tell? )

The Exarch is I6 WS5. He's killing the Klaivex, but is probably also dying. The real question is how many Incubi he takes with him.

If he gets charged, he has 3 attacks. Hit on 3s or 4s, kill on 2s (even vs FnP). So the EV is much less than 1 Incubi.

After that, its a bunch of S4 AP2 attacks vs a bunch of S4 AP-doesnt matter attack with some S3 thrown in.

A lot of things can go wrong in the setup for the Incubi (get shot too much, forced to charge into cover, Exarch's Mandiblaster gets really lucky) that woupd give the fight to the Scorps, but head to head I think the Incubi have it.

Thats kind of how they are fluffwise, too. Scorpions are good at CC, but excel at positioning and stalking. Incubi are better at a direct fight, but worse at navigating trecherous terrain, or doing some shooting, or annoying gadgetry.

Sure, Incubi are in a worse place overall, but head to head they seem appropriate for both fluff and balance.

Don't forget that you're taking Scorpions in a Shrine anyway, so you're either at WS5 or BS5, with the Exarch bringing more to the table.

And taking Incubi in a Venom, so you wipe then off the board from 36" away?

Or we give the Incubi a 2++ Archon and the Scorpions a Shard of Anaris Autarch?

I dont think its really accurate to assume other choices, including Formations or DTs.

That said, i dont know that WS5 changes much. Scorps still bounce off 3+ armor while Incubi AP them and then some.

From a pure math perspective the incubi are going to come out as the winner more often then not.

(All assuming a squad of 4 scorpions + 1 exarch w/ claw vs. 5 incubi + klavex)


If the scorpions get the charge the mandiblasters will kill the klavex most of the time, and the exarch will do on average 1.6 wounds. The remaining scorpions swing at the same time as the incubi. The scorpions do on average 1.33 wounds and the incubi do 3.55.
Total - incubi 3.82 dead, scorpions 3.55 dead

If the incubi get the charge the mandiblasters will again kill the klavex most of the time, and the exarch will do on average 1.25 wounds. Again the scorpions hit at the same time as the incubi. The incubi do 5.33 wounds and the scorpions do 1.1
Total - incubi 3.18 dead, scorpions 5.33 dead

I should point out that the klavex survives the mandiblasters 40% of the time, and when that happens.. things do not go well for the scorpions.

Why would the Klavex take all the Mandiblaster wounds?

Bharring wrote:
Why would the Klavex take all the Mandiblaster wounds?

Because i read the rule as the attacker picks the model and not the attacker picks the unit. My bad.

In that case, even if the scorpions get the charge the incubi win.

I had missed Incubi having 2w. And for some reason i thought they were 25ppm.

Incubi win, even charging into cover.

Bharring wrote:
I had missed Incubi having 2w. And for some reason i thought they were 25ppm.

Incubi win, even charging into cover.

Incubi have 1w each and are 20ppm.

As a "Death-Match" this scenario should assume no other ouside forces, like transports or formation bonses. In this case, I really think it comes down to terrain.

-Turn 1 Incubi deploy, Scorpions Infiltrate 18" of them. Incubi move up, then Fleet. Scorpions cannot charge, but move just into pistol range and fire, then Battle Focus away.
-Turn 2 Incubi move up and attempt a charge, Scorpions over watch. This part is critical. if the Incubi fail the charge, the Scorpions now have full advantage as they can choose to repeat their turn 1 tactic, or go in for a guaranteed charge.

So let's assume the Incubi succeed, Klaivex at the rear of the unit to "hopefully" not be engaged for the challenge. Not engaged = can't accept or deny challenges, but can pile in at initiative and get attacks.
At this point is becomes obvious that there are too many "if" scenarios that the Incubi have to achieve. in a straight 1-on-1 fight the Incubi win all day, but getting there intact and striking at I5 has always been their issue.


What happens when we add Karandras and Arhra...I mean Drazhar?

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The the dark eldar players loses because the model for drazhar is so terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a serious note, I think eldar pulls ahead. a lot of sx2 hits are going to be better then s+1

lusciifi wrote:
The the dark eldar players loses because the model for drazhar is so terrible.

Lol. There is no model for Drazhar*, so you just convert an Incubi with dual blades



Edit: If we add Drazhar and Karandras, we need to all another Incubi for the points difference. Probably give the Klaivex Demi-glaives as well. Does that make a difference?

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Well, the Scorpions have Sx2 AP2 on one model, the Incubi have S+1 AP2 on every model.

An Incubi kills 4/9 Scorpions per attack. A Scorpion kills 1/9 Incubi. Bot have 2 attacks (2A vs CCW+Pistol), and Scoprions get an additonal 1/12 per round at the top of CC. So the stock Incubi clean up on the stock Scorpions.

The Exarch hits on 4s kills on 2s vs the Incubi, with 3A. That means 15/12 kills plus a 1/12 Mandiblaster, for 16/12 wounds or 1.25 dead Incubi a round. The Klaivex (who wont survive) does 4/9 wounds per attack, at 3 base, more if he charges and even more possible with Rampage. Without rampage, its only 12/9, so he hurts the Exarch and may kill him. With the charge hes at 16/9 for a good chance. If he somehow has rampage (if Scorps get a round of shooting and mandiblasters, its not unlikely), he will most likely oneround the exarch (and die).

If he kills the Exarch, the Scorpions die a horrible, miserable death.

Lets assume he doesnt. Lets say things go poorly for the Incubi. Lose one to shooting, charge into cover, lose one to Overwatch/Mandiblasters. Exarch aces the Klavex. The overkill (.25) and the 4 Scorpions (combined kill 8/9ths) combine to take another down. The remaining 2 kill 2x3x(4/9), or 24/9. Even worst case, the first round of combt even following a round of shooting and assaulting into combat leave it at about 2 Incubi vs Exarch and 1.5 Scorpions. Looks like itll go the Scorpion's way in another round or two, but not a blowout.

Consider again if they fight in the open. If the Scorpions assault, they kill one with Mandiblasters, Exarch kills Klavix +1, Klavix wounds the Exarch but doesnt quite finish him. Then 5 Incubi kill 40/9 Scorpions, or 4+4/9. The Scorps do a total of 12/9 wounds. Now, if the Exarch survives (he might, but his friends wont, hes now facing off with 3-4 Incubi, which waste him next turn.

However I slice it, it seems the skirmishers/assasins out skirmish/assasinate the fighters/killers, but the fighters/killers out fight/kill the skirmishers/assasins.

In a straight comparison of their stats, the Incubi demolish the Scorpions thanks to higher WS and AP2 whilst 3+ armour and FnP help to keep them alive from the Scorpions attacks. The Scorpion Exarch is the only one with the guranteed damage output on his side to match up against the Incubi, but the Klaivex will generally have more attacks thanks to Rampage and a 4-5 man squad of Incubi is generally more usefull than an equally small squad of Scorpions, who need larger numbers to force an excessive number of saves since they're only AP6.

The real differentiator is terrain and vehicles. If Incubi charge into terrain to get at the Striking Scorpions, they're going to take damage especially from an Exarch and there's no way around that. Of course, the only time I would ever consider charging Incubi into terrain is if it's against a unit that lacks any real way to deal damage to them regardless, in which case the loss of the Initative advantage doesn't matter. Against Scorpions, I wouldn't even consider it and move on for a more easily disected target. Vehicles are the other big thing, Venoms and Raiders are Assault Vehicles so it's entirely reasonable to get the Incubi very close to an inteded target without much chance of them taking damage from shooting before overwatch, and Scorpions don't have that option without allies.

If you want to throw Drazhar and Karandras into the mix, chances are they'll kill each other. Karandras will have 1 extra attack from 2 CCW and his double strength will negate Drazhars FnP, but Drazhar has the possibility of Rampage and generates extra attacks on a to wound roll of a 6.

Bharring wrote:
And taking Incubi in a Venom, so you wipe then off the board from 36" away?

Or we give the Incubi a 2++ Archon and the Scorpions a Shard of Anaris Autarch?

I dont think its really accurate to assume other choices, including Formations or DTs.

That said, i dont know that WS5 changes much. Scorps still bounce off 3+ armor while Incubi AP them and then some.

It is important to include these things. That's why Mathhammer is calculated with Decurion Necrons, for example. If that's what you face, it is what you calculate.

Also you could include the Venom into the equation, so long as we are having equal point values. I know Scorpions won't need any vehicle to make it to combat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
And taking Incubi in a Venom, so you wipe then off the board from 36" away?

Or we give the Incubi a 2++ Archon and the Scorpions a Shard of Anaris Autarch?

I dont think its really accurate to assume other choices, including Formations or DTs.

That said, i dont know that WS5 changes much. Scorps still bounce off 3+ armor while Incubi AP them and then some.

It is important to include these things. That's why Mathhammer is calculated with Decurion Necrons, for example. If that's what you face, it is what you calculate.

Also you could include the Venom into the equation, so long as we are having equal point values. I know Scorpions won't need any vehicle to make it to combat.

I agree that you need to consider all those variables when comparing the effectiveness of units within their army, but this is a strictly 1 v 1 battle where player A only has 5-6 Incubi and player B only has 5 Scorpions.
The Formation bonus for the Aspect host in this case would not work for 2 reasons. 1) We are only fielding 1 unit of scorpions, so how are we getting the formation bonus again? 2) Incubi do not yet have their own formation, though I suspect they'll get one eventually.
Adding transports skews this even more as the only way to make it even is for both to have transports and the Incubi to have a much bigger unit to make up the points. In a Raider vs Wave serpent fight, who do you think wins? Why would the Scorpions bother getting out when they could just shoot the Incubi down?
1 vs 1 comparisons need to only include what the unit can have without the interference of other units (including DTs)

Reviewing the points last night, I hadn't realized that the Scorpions claw was so expensive. It actually means that to be closer in points, you need this setup:
5 Scorpions including Exarch w/ claw = 125pts
6 Incubi including Klaivex = 130pts

Adding Karandras and Drazhar also means adding another Incubi, since Karandras costs 1.5 Incubi more than Drazhar. The downside of matching points like this is that the Klaivex and Drazhar are less likely to get Rampage (but then again, having 1-2 more Incubi is more attacks). I may playtest this with different scenarios, like which side goes first, who charges first, who challenges who, etc.
I'll post my findings when I get a chance.

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If you include the Phoenix Lords, it also means the Klaivex is unlikely to be in a challenge round 1, so can do more damage. But round 2, he has no hope of Charge or Rampage, so the Exarch will kill him. Then its attrition, which the Incubi win.

The Scorpion Claw Exarch is scary, but the normal Scorpions hit like ASM. Outside the Exarch, theyre a bully unit. Outside the Klaivex, the Incubi are still a CC unit.