Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Trying to separate this from the riptide thread because I think it bear discussion on its own.

Proposed rules:

Ghostkeel (Jump Walker):
AV 11 11 10, HP3, BS3, WS2, A3, S5

Drones form a separate unit, losing stealth. In the shooting phase a stealth drone can target a ghostkeel and give it +1 cover saves until the start of your next shooting phase.

I think a walker with a constant 2+ against shooting is way too strong. Separating the drones from the unit gives the opponent the ability to remove the cover bonuses.


Riptide (Jump Walker):
AV 12 12 11, HP4, BS3, WS2, A3, S6, 5++

Nova-Charge: on a 3+ pick on of the following benefits, on a 1-2 take an automatic glancing hit with no saves allowed.
4++, fire twice with secondary weapons, 4d6 thrust move, nova weapon profiles.


Stormsurge (Super-Heavy Walker):
AV 12 11 10, HP6, BS3, WS2, A2, S6


Tau'nar (Super-Heavy Walker):
AV 13 13 12, HP8, BS3, WS2, A2, S10, 5++/4++ against shooting


Other Changes:
Stim injectors - IWND 5+
Shield Gen - 5++

Why weaker rear armour? Currently they're just as strong all around, so surely they should be:

Ghostkeel: 12 12 12 3HP
Riptide: 13 13 13 4HP
Storm surge: 13 13 13 6HP OPEN TOPPED
Ta'Unar: 14 14 14 8HP

I would have thought Jet Walkers would be better suited.

I think weaker rear armour is perfectly fine.

They are only strong all around right now because the MC rules don't allow for anything else. If you look at the models the rear is much more exposed then the front.

I think you are overestimating the toughness of tau MC's. AV13 is too high to represent a T6 model.

Keep in mind even the war-hound titan is not 14 all around so im not sure why the taunar would be.

SGTPozy wrote:
Why weaker rear armour? Currently they're just as strong all around, so surely they should be:

Ghostkeel: 12 12 12 3HP
Riptide: 13 13 13 4HP
Storm surge: 13 13 13 6HP OPEN TOPPED
Ta'Unar: 14 14 14 8HP

Will the Riptide maintain it's 5++ with a possible 3++? If so, I really don't think 13 AV on all sides is necessary.

I suggested nova bringing it to 4++. Is there another walker in the game that can get a 3++ in the game right now?

lusciifi wrote:
They are only strong all around right now because the MC rules don't allow for anything else. If you look at the models the rear is much more exposed then the front.

I think you are overestimating the toughness of tau MC's. AV13 is too high to represent a T6 model.

Keep in mind even the war-hound titan is not 14 all around so im not sure why the taunar would be.

It's not just T6 though. It's T6 and a 2+ save. That's why it should be AV13.

I am aware the Warhound isn't... But so what? TheLand Raider is AV14 all around so why can't this be?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Qlanth wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Why weaker rear armour? Currently they're just as strong all around, so surely they should be:

Ghostkeel: 12 12 12 3HP
Riptide: 13 13 13 4HP
Storm surge: 13 13 13 6HP OPEN TOPPED
Ta'Unar: 14 14 14 8HP

Will the Riptide maintain it's 5++ with a possible 3++? If so, I really don't think 13 AV on all sides is necessary.

No, it's lose those but te Nova could give it a 5++ or something like that


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lusciifi wrote:
I suggested nova bringing it to 4++. Is there another walker in the game that can get a 3++ in the game right now?

Space Wolves can get a storm shield for their dreads

Walkers need to not be bad first before we change functional units into something that rivals the gorkanaut.

On the riptide alone making it an AV12 walker with 4 HP takes it from needing 68 auto cannon hits to kill (assuming stim) down to needing 18 hits and that's just trying to strip its HP to death. Put some melta near that and its going to explode or be shaken to uselessness. I get that MC "walkers" are too strong but there is a reason nobody fields non super heavy walkers and its because the current vehicle rules are bad as combat platforms.

Space Wolf Storm Shield only covers the front. Not comparable to an all around save.

pm713 wrote:
Space Wolf Storm Shield only covers the front. Not comparable to an all around save.

The guy asked if there was... And I answered. Sure, it's not comparable but he/she/it didn't specify it had to be all around

 Vankraken wrote:
Walkers need to not be bad first before we change functional units into something that rivals the gorkanaut.

On the riptide alone making it an AV12 walker with 4 HP takes it from needing 68 auto cannon hits to kill (assuming stim) down to needing 18 hits and that's just trying to strip its HP to death. Put some melta near that and its going to explode or be shaken to uselessness. I get that MC "walkers" are too strong but there is a reason nobody fields non super heavy walkers and its because the current vehicle rules are bad as combat platforms.

BA dreads post-FAQ doubt that

As for walkers as a whole being weak: I say the simple fix is remove glances from the game (or leave glances, and they get to roll on the damage chart -3), and/or give every walker a 3+ armour save (this leaves dedicated AT as strong, and HEAVILY reduces the "glance them to death with High S low AP weapons)

 Vankraken wrote:
Walkers need to not be bad first before we change functional units into something that rivals the gorkanaut.

On the riptide alone making it an AV12 walker with 4 HP takes it from needing 68 auto cannon hits to kill (assuming stim) down to needing 18 hits and that's just trying to strip its HP to death. Put some melta near that and its going to explode or be shaken to uselessness. I get that MC "walkers" are too strong but there is a reason nobody fields non super heavy walkers and its because the current vehicle rules are bad as combat platforms.

Well sure but I becomes fully immune to anything less then S6, imune to psychic shreek and Ld in general and the big one. Stronger against grav.

I would still run a riptide with the current points cost and the listed rules.

lusciifi wrote:
Trying to separate this from the riptide thread because I think it bear discussion on its own.

Proposed rules:

Ghostkeel (Jump Walker):
AV 11 11 10, HP3, BS3, WS2, A3, S5

Drones form a separate unit, losing stealth. In the shooting phase a stealth drone can target a ghostkeel and give it +1 cover saves until the start of your next shooting phase.

I think a walker with a constant 2+ against shooting is way too strong. Separating the drones from the unit gives the opponent the ability to remove the cover bonuses.

It gets stealth and shrouded from its drones, it doesn't have any extra cover inherently, and constant 4+, not 2+. can only get 2+ in ruins/heavy cover, and if its in that cover, its likely a bit to far away to be maximum effective. Possibly not if you play a terrain heavy, ruins only board, but then the dreaded storm surge and riptides cannot see your units either.

I would still figure it would be easier to just make everything MC style and just call them something else.

give them a T, and multiple stipulations on stuff. and an armor save.

The Armor Value model is dated in all honesty.

and if a container can have a T value then i dont see why a metal bawx cant

 pumaman1 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
Trying to separate this from the riptide thread because I think it bear discussion on its own.

Proposed rules:

Ghostkeel (Jump Walker):
AV 11 11 10, HP3, BS3, WS2, A3, S5

Drones form a separate unit, losing stealth. In the shooting phase a stealth drone can target a ghostkeel and give it +1 cover saves until the start of your next shooting phase.

I think a walker with a constant 2+ against shooting is way too strong. Separating the drones from the unit gives the opponent the ability to remove the cover bonuses.

It gets stealth and shrouded from its drones, it doesn't have any extra cover inherently, and constant 4+, not 2+. can only get 2+ in ruins/heavy cover, and if its in that cover, its likely a bit to far away to be maximum effective. Possibly not if you play a terrain heavy, ruins only board, but then the dreaded storm surge and riptides cannot see your units either.

Actually, it does double its cover save against shooting attacks that originate from outside 12". However, since the Ghostkeel has T5 instead of T6, and is forced to operate no further than 24" away, this is less of a problem than it looks like.

I'll concede that my meta is a bit different from most, but I can't say I've heard much griping about the Ghostkeel, despite its theoretically outstanding durability.

This thread is just...yuck.

AV 12 11 10 on the Stormsurge? Really? It's less tough than a Predator?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
This thread is just...yuck.

AV 12 11 10 on the Stormsurge? Really? It's less tough than a Predator?

It makes sense to me. The Predator doesn't have exposed crew and controls.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
This thread is just...yuck.

AV 12 11 10 on the Stormsurge? Really? It's less tough than a Predator?

"

In reality, tanks would be harder to hurt than stompy robots. That's why Battletech is absurd.

pm713 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
This thread is just...yuck.

AV 12 11 10 on the Stormsurge? Really? It's less tough than a Predator?

It makes sense to me. The Predator doesn't have exposed crew and controls.

On a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature? Barely tougher than a Rhino? Phew, glad some of you guys aren't writing the rules.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
This thread is just...yuck.

AV 12 11 10 on the Stormsurge? Really? It's less tough than a Predator?

It makes sense to me. The Predator doesn't have exposed crew and controls.

On a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature? Barely tougher than a Rhino? Phew, glad some of you guys aren't writing the rules.

If I was writing them we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Only one of them can be ruined by bad weather. It's not the Rhino.

I kinda agree with the old idea that they were the same armor value all around. Not because of the old MC rule but to give them something different from the standard "Dreadnought" build.

Also using scales to compare AV doesn't really cut it. A soul Grinder is AV13 on two sides but it technically has less armor than a defiler, who actually has a lower AV, and the Grinder doesn't mesh well at all when compared to an Imperial Knight (who is just slightly bigger than it in terms of sheer bulk).

I wouldn't call having some armour being weaker the "Dreadnought build". It's more the standard way of doing vehicles.

Thankfully not. Enjoy attempting to turn a GMC into a Rhino

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
This thread is just...yuck.

AV 12 11 10 on the Stormsurge? Really? It's less tough than a Predator?

It makes sense to me. The Predator doesn't have exposed crew and controls.

On a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature? Barely tougher than a Rhino? Phew, glad some of you guys aren't writing the rules.

You realize a phantom TITAN is 12 12 10, right? Being large doesn't make you super tough inherently.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
This thread is just...yuck.

AV 12 11 10 on the Stormsurge? Really? It's less tough than a Predator?

It makes sense to me. The Predator doesn't have exposed crew and controls.

On a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature? Barely tougher than a Rhino? Phew, glad some of you guys aren't writing the rules.

Tougher? No. A lot more wounds? Sure. GMCs shouldn't even be THAT tough. Do you think an elephant will survive a hit from an anti-material rifle? No. So why does a large bug survive a lascannon hit to the head?

Slight nitpick: the Phantom Titan is AV13. The Revenant is AV12. But otherwise, yes.

jade_angel wrote:
Slight nitpick: the Phantom Titan is AV13. The Revenant is AV12. But otherwise, yes.

Very true. I always get those 2 confused.

pm713 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
This thread is just...yuck.

AV 12 11 10 on the Stormsurge? Really? It's less tough than a Predator?

It makes sense to me. The Predator doesn't have exposed crew and controls.

so make it open topped, not av12, more than 1 way to skin a cat


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
Trying to separate this from the riptide thread because I think it bear discussion on its own.

Proposed rules:

Ghostkeel (Jump Walker):
AV 11 11 10, HP3, BS3, WS2, A3, S5

Drones form a separate unit, losing stealth. In the shooting phase a stealth drone can target a ghostkeel and give it +1 cover saves until the start of your next shooting phase.

I think a walker with a constant 2+ against shooting is way too strong. Separating the drones from the unit gives the opponent the ability to remove the cover bonuses.

It gets stealth and shrouded from its drones, it doesn't have any extra cover inherently, and constant 4+, not 2+. can only get 2+ in ruins/heavy cover, and if its in that cover, its likely a bit to far away to be maximum effective. Possibly not if you play a terrain heavy, ruins only board, but then the dreaded storm surge and riptides cannot see your units either.

Actually, it does double its cover save against shooting attacks that originate from outside 12". However, since the Ghostkeel has T5 instead of T6, and is forced to operate no further than 24" away, this is less of a problem than it looks like.

I'll concede that my meta is a bit different from most, but I can't say I've heard much griping about the Ghostkeel, despite its theoretically outstanding durability.

I totally forgot that was natural to the ghostkeel, I incorrectly thought it was one of their formation bonuses. I tend to run mine double melta, so i am close to get melta effect, but thank you for the kindly correction!

 Vankraken wrote:
Walkers need to not be bad first before we change functional units into something that rivals the gorkanaut.

On the riptide alone making it an AV12 walker with 4 HP takes it from needing 68 auto cannon hits to kill (assuming stim) down to needing 18 hits and that's just trying to strip its HP to death. Put some melta near that and its going to explode or be shaken to uselessness. I get that MC "walkers" are too strong but there is a reason nobody fields non super heavy walkers and its because the current vehicle rules are bad as combat platforms.

18 autocannon hits sounds like something a guard army could achieve over the course of a game. 68 sounds like something a warhound could tank, not a large dread.

Riptides are more durable vs melta than a Warhound.