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So this is the first proper 30k list I've written and I'd appreciate some constructive criticism.

It's probably worth saying first, however, that I'm aware that the Sons of Horus don't have the best rules. I'm going this way because I like the colour scheme and the idea of old Terran Veterans trying to survive in the ashes of Isstvan while coming to terms with their Legion's treachery. Anyone replying along the lines of 'LOLJUSTDOHORUSANDABADDONYOUFILTHYSCRUB' is likely to be ignored. I'm going for a fun army with a balance between power and fluff.

Sons of Horus
The Orphans of Betrayal

[HQ] Leiutennant Eubion Sophus = 90
-Legion Delegatus
-Master-Crafted Charnable Sabre
-Artificer Armour
-Combat Shield

[ELITES] Apothecarion Detachment = 90
-2 Apothecaries

[ELITES] Legion Terminator Squad = 205
-5 Space Marines
-Tartaros Terminator Armour
-4 Power Fists
-Grenade Harness
[TRANSPORT] Land Raider Phobos = 250

[ELITES] Legion Terminator Squad = 205
-5 Space Marines
-Tartaros Terminator Armour
-4 Power Fists
-Grenade Harness
[TRANSPORT] Land Raider Phobos = 250

[TROOPS] Legion Tactical Squad = 320
-20 Space Marines
-Additional Combat Blades
-Legion Vexilla
-Power Sword
-Artificer Armour

[TROOPS] Legion Tactical Squad = 320
-20 Space Marines
-Additional Combat Blades
-Legion Vexilla
-Power Sword
-Artificer Armour

[HEAVY] Legion Vindicator = 155
-Laser Destroyer Array
-Machine Spirit

[HEAVY] Legion Whirlwind Scorpius = 115

Total Points Cost = 2000
Total Model Count = 57
Total Expenditure = £490

Tactics should be fairly self-evident. Apothecaries and Delegatus join the Tactical Squads and advance behind the LoS-blocking Land Raiders under covering fire from the Whirlwind and Vindicator. Once they're in favourable positions they'll Fury all over the enemy (with Pistols if they plan to assault, or Bolters if that's too scary a prospect), then go in for the crunch with anything up to 80 attacks! Not a subtle army, but there you have it.

I'd love to know what you think, Dakka.

As a Luna Wolves player, welcome!

So our rules are not as OP as other legions but they can still be very effective.

My recommendation would be Reaver Squads. They are our bread and butter and are truly scary when used correctly.

Welcome to the team loyal brother, FOR THE EMPEROR!

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
My recommendation would be Reaver Squads. They are our bread and butter and are truly scary when used correctly.

I do like the Reavers, and if I were doing a traitor force then I'd be all over them, but the intention with this was to create a force of loyalists picking through the bones of the Isstvan atrocity, defaulting to the old Crusade-era tactics which had been usurped by the latter-day Cthonian style ones (which I think the Catulan Reavers really typify)

Also, it doesn't seem like Kalus Ekaddon would have allowed any of his men to be in the first wave.

Very true.
I run my Reavers as Cthonian vengeance squads. Loyalists who have been driven mad by the heresy and formed into special hunter killer type units. I do them the off white of the Luna Wolves but give them red top knots.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Very true.
I run my Reavers as Cthonian vengeance squads. Loyalists who have been driven mad by the heresy and formed into special hunter killer type units. I do them the off white of the Luna Wolves but give them red top knots.

That sounds cool. I did consider going for a Luna Wolves scheme because it would allow me to fight battles at any point prior to the re-branding at the end of Horus Rising, but I've just finished a unit of the Stormtroopers from Star Wars Imperial Assault and the thought of painting any more white armour makes my ears foam.

Also, I reckon there's a more ironic flavour to things if the Traitors find themselves fighting men in their own colours. Sophus just wants to give them a big ol' middle finger.

Are Reavers limited to just the Traitor Side? I dont recall them having that limitation.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Are Reavers limited to just the Traitor Side? I dont recall them having that limitation.

They are not no.

That is what I thought thanks. I'd put some Reavers in the list then, get em close to take advantage of the Death Dealers part of the SoH/Luna Wolves rules.

As a note to Spineyguy, I think you could easily justify Reavers by any other name if you wanted to. The Luna Wolves were known for their brutal tactics long before Horus or recruiting from Cthonia.

As for your list itself, it is a fine all around list. I would maybe swap out a Legion terminator squad for a justarian one but that is just me.

I think there is some confusion. Reavers are just the favoured infantry set up for the SoH, nothing to do with Loyalty.

The Catulan Reavers, lead I believe, by Kalus Ekaddon, were the specific name of the 1st Company Reaver detachment and wore black. Every company would have had it's own Reavers though, including the loyalists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Justarain on the other hand were definitely all 1st Company and therefore, traitors in all but the most dubious twisting of fluff.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think there is some confusion. Reavers are just the favoured infantry set up for the SoH, nothing to do with Loyalty.

The Catulan Reavers, lead I believe, by Kalus Ekaddon, were the specific name of the 1st Company Reaver detachment and wore black. Every company would have had it's own Reavers though, including the loyalists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Justarain on the other hand were definitely all 1st Company and therefore, traitors in all but the most dubious twisting of fluff.

Unless Justarian Terminators have the marking on the page showing that they can only be taken in a Traitor Force (and I'm not sure if they do), then they can be taken in either Traitor or Loyalist Armies. And the Catulan Reavers on the Table Top are just represented as Reavers, which all Reavers shown in the HH Campaign books are shown in Black.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I'd put some Reavers in the list then, get em close to take advantage of the Death Dealers part of the SoH/Luna Wolves rules.

One thing I do need to consider is that I'm just about to finish a Raven Guard army, with lots of infantry and jump units and nothing even remotely heavy. This is why I've gone for Terminators and Land Raiders; to give myself a break from painting all-black Power Armour.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
As a note to Spineyguy, I think you could easily justify Reavers by any other name if you wanted to. The Luna Wolves were known for their brutal tactics long before Horus or recruiting from Cthonia.

As for your list itself, it is a fine all around list. I would maybe swap out a Legion terminator squad for a justarian one but that is just me.

As Kor Phaeron said (not that I'd trust a name like that), Justaerin are definitely all Traitors. Reavers are the general-purpose elite murder units for the latter-day Sons. I'm going for a counter-rebellious 'we're not doing it your way any more, mate' kind of vibe from an old Terran officer. I think the footslogging Despoiler Tactical squads are suitably brutal for that purpose.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think there is some confusion. Reavers are just the favoured infantry set up for the SoH, nothing to do with Loyalty.

The Catulan Reavers, lead I believe, by Kalus Ekaddon, were the specific name of the 1st Company Reaver detachment and wore black. Every company would have had it's own Reavers though, including the loyalists.

Reavers were definitely an elite unit, and lots of companies had them, but the standard line unit for the Sons seems to me to have been Despoiler-type Tactical Squads, with large numbers of Marines and extra combat blades everywhere. What I'm going for is a band of survivors who have defaulted to pre-Cthonian tactics as a way of reclaiming their identity as soldiers of the Emperor. The trademark tactics of the old Luna Wolves were massed infantry assaults, Land Raider spearheads and pioneering use of Terminators. This is what's informed my choices here, and I'm happy with the outcome. I was just wondering if there were any glaring shortcomings that I hadn't spotted, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

Thanks for your help, chaps.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think there is some confusion. Reavers are just the favoured infantry set up for the SoH, nothing to do with Loyalty.

The Catulan Reavers, lead I believe, by Kalus Ekaddon, were the specific name of the 1st Company Reaver detachment and wore black. Every company would have had it's own Reavers though, including the loyalists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Justarain on the other hand were definitely all 1st Company and therefore, traitors in all but the most dubious twisting of fluff.

Unless Justarian Terminators have the marking on the page showing that they can only be taken in a Traitor Force (and I'm not sure if they do), then they can be taken in either Traitor or Loyalist Armies. And the Catulan Reavers on the Table Top are just represented as Reavers, which all Reavers shown in the HH Campaign books are shown in Black.

Just to be clear, I wasn't disputing rules, I know they can both be used in either army. I was merely pointing out that fluff wise (The opening HH trilogy) the Justaerin were Abaddon's personal Terminator elite, so most likely all went traitor, whereas there are multiple reaver bands so it's fluffy to have them in either list. If the rules allow it then there's no problem with people taking Justaerin in a Loyalist list, but the OP seemed to be more concerned with fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spineyguy wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I'd put some Reavers in the list then, get em close to take advantage of the Death Dealers part of the SoH/Luna Wolves rules.

One thing I do need to consider is that I'm just about to finish a Raven Guard army, with lots of infantry and jump units and nothing even remotely heavy. This is why I've gone for Terminators and Land Raiders; to give myself a break from painting all-black Power Armour.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
As a note to Spineyguy, I think you could easily justify Reavers by any other name if you wanted to. The Luna Wolves were known for their brutal tactics long before Horus or recruiting from Cthonia.

As for your list itself, it is a fine all around list. I would maybe swap out a Legion terminator squad for a justarian one but that is just me.

As Kor Phaeron said (not that I'd trust a name like that), Justaerin are definitely all Traitors. Reavers are the general-purpose elite murder units for the latter-day Sons. I'm going for a counter-rebellious 'we're not doing it your way any more, mate' kind of vibe from an old Terran officer. I think the footslogging Despoiler Tactical squads are suitably brutal for that purpose.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think there is some confusion. Reavers are just the favoured infantry set up for the SoH, nothing to do with Loyalty.

The Catulan Reavers, lead I believe, by Kalus Ekaddon, were the specific name of the 1st Company Reaver detachment and wore black. Every company would have had it's own Reavers though, including the loyalists.

Reavers were definitely an elite unit, and lots of companies had them, but the standard line unit for the Sons seems to me to have been Despoiler-type Tactical Squads, with large numbers of Marines and extra combat blades everywhere. What I'm going for is a band of survivors who have defaulted to pre-Cthonian tactics as a way of reclaiming their identity as soldiers of the Emperor. The trademark tactics of the old Luna Wolves were massed infantry assaults, Land Raider spearheads and pioneering use of Terminators. This is what's informed my choices here, and I'm happy with the outcome. I was just wondering if there were any glaring shortcomings that I hadn't spotted, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

Thanks for your help, chaps.

I actually love the list you posted, I just wanted to vomit some fluff trivia into the thread It's nice to see lists that aren't the standard cut and paste of units, it's part of the 30k charm.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Just to be clear, I wasn't disputing rules, I know they can both be used in either army. I was merely pointing out that fluff wise (The opening HH trilogy) the Justaerin were Abaddon's personal Terminator elite, so most likely all went traitor, whereas there are multiple reaver bands so it's fluffy to have them in either list. If the rules allow it then there's no problem with people taking Justaerin in a Loyalist list, but the OP seemed to be more concerned with fluff.

I actually love the list you posted, I just wanted to vomit some fluff trivia into the thread It's nice to see lists that aren't the standard cut and paste of units, it's part of the 30k charm.

I was definitely using the opening trilogy as my basis. They're still, in my opinion, the books that got the best balance between moving the heresy forward and characterising the fledgeling Imperium and its characters. Some of that early fluff seems to have been marred in recent years by the compulsion to open up addition options for gamers. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I'm all for nuanced and developed fluff and for diverse ranges of models and rules, but it has had an effect on the perception of those early engagements (Murder, 63-19, Isstvan, etc). Who'd ever heard of a Spartan or a Destroyer squad back then, for example?

Anyway, thanks for the advice. Normally I'm told things like 'Well, evidently you're not interested in winning games.' and 'How do you expect to take this to tournaments?', so this has been a quite encouraging thread for me. I feel like this is an army I might actually press ahead with.

I was definitely using the opening trilogy as my basis. They're still, in my opinion, the books that got the best balance between moving the heresy forward and characterising the fledgeling Imperium and its characters. Some of that early fluff seems to have been marred in recent years by the compulsion to open up addition options for gamers. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I'm all for nuanced and developed fluff and for diverse ranges of models and rules, but it has had an effect on the perception of those early engagements (Murder, 63-19, Isstvan, etc). Who'd ever heard of a Spartan or a Destroyer squad back then, for example?

Anyway, thanks for the advice. Normally I'm told things like 'Well, evidently you're not interested in winning games.' and 'How do you expect to take this to tournaments?', so this has been a quite encouraging thread for me. I feel like this is an army I might actually press ahead with.

Well I'd say that the Mournval being "Just Captains" is already explained in the HH Organizational Structure shown by FW. Praetors and Chapter Masters have different titles depending on the Legion. There is no reason why he can't have Praetors that are refered to as a Captain. Loken being the Captain of X Company doesnt mean he isn't a Praetor, he's just also that Companies leader. They also made the point that being in the Inner Circle isn't entirely dependent on what your Rank is, but rather the individual's merit.

Abbadon and Sigismund are both First Captains and Praetors, the title is not a mutually exclusive thing.

The same listing FW has also explains the Death Guard, with their "Chapters" being referred to as Great Companies. It even shows that on the Chart.

Yeah, the Sons of Horus are a bit of an exception in that they have a very loose structure comprising a load of dissimilar companies all assembled as befits the mission at hand. Each company is meant to have consisted of anything up to five thousand Astartes, and at least 28 companies are mentioned in the fluff. The original trilogy drastically undersold the scope of the heresy and the size of the forces involved. I don't think it's just a case of ret-conning.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Well I'd say that the Mournval being "Just Captains" is already explained in the HH Organizational Structure shown by FW. Praetors and Chapter Masters have different titles depending on the Legion. There is no reason why he can't have Praetors that are refered to as a Captain. Loken being the Captain of X Company doesnt mean he isn't a Praetor, he's just also that Companies leader. They also made the point that being in the Inner Circle isn't entirely dependent on what your Rank is, but rather the individual's merit.

Abbadon and Sigismund are both First Captains and Praetors, the title is not a mutually exclusive thing.

The same listing FW has also explains the Death Guard, with their "Chapters" being referred to as Great Companies. It even shows that on the Chart.

Spoiler:

I understand that. It's just confusing because Captain is the highest rank, so what are the 3 or 4 ranks below it called?
When the original trilogy came out, they were assumed to be similar sized companies to 40k only more of them than ten. Because there are some 100 and something, company captains mentioned in those books. So there shouldn't be 100 Praetor ranked officer.

That forgeworld chart doesn't really cover every instance of the more deviant legions though. For example it specifies (in line with BL fluff) that instead of chapters it has 7 grand companies, the book seems to refer to the next DG sub division is called a Battle Group (about two to a Grand Company) but then the smallest one isnt specified. I think we can assume it's not called a company has we already have that name for the bigger designation. For my own fluff, I have gone with Maniple but I'm sure it doesn't say for each specific legions, it just throws out a bunch of names without saying who used them.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I understand that. It's just confusing because Captain is the highest rank, so what are the 3 or 4 ranks below it called?
When the original trilogy came out, they were assumed to be similar sized companies to 40k only more of them than ten. Because there are some 100 and something, company captains mentioned in those books. So there shouldn't be 100 Praetor ranked officer.

That forgeworld chart doesn't really cover every instance of the more deviant legions though. For example it specifies (in line with BL fluff) that instead of chapters it has 7 grand companies, the book seems to refer to the next DG sub division is called a Battle Group (about two to a Grand Company) but then the smallest one isnt specified. I think we can assume it's not called a company has we already have that name for the bigger designation. For my own fluff, I have gone with Maniple but I'm sure it doesn't say for each specific legions, it just throws out a bunch of names without saying who used them.

In hindsight, the prevalence of the rank of Sergeant in the Sons of Horus (as well as the authority held by characters like Nero Vipus), would seem to suggest that this is the basic Field Officer rank in that particular Legion. Betrayal also makes reference to a Lieutennant rank within the Sons of Horus (which is who my Centurion character is based on). So a Captain would be in command of a few thousand Astartes, within which there would be Battalions of up to a thousand, each led by a Lieuennant, under which you would have a number of squads of varying size, each lead by a Sergeant. Sergeants would then have a level of authority based on the number of their squad, so the 1st Squad's Sergeant is superior to the 8th's, in the same way as the Company Captains distribute their power. There seems to have been quite a bit of movement between Squads and Companies, so this doesn't represent an unfair or nepotistic structure (any more than a different one might).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally, I think the distinction between Centurion and Praetor has more to do with martial ability and tactical skill than actual rank within a legion. It's to encourage fluff mining and creativity, perhaps.