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I want to make a chaos space marine army that actually includes the chaos space marine unit because they look cool and are fluffy.

The problem is I am really struggling to find a way to make them viable. Every time I compare them to loyalist tactical marines that get ATSTNF, combat squads, free combat doctrines, and possibly free transports it just does not seem fair.

Pouring points into them seems like a bad idea because I know how easily marines die in 40k. They die like flies.

Right now I am leaning towards 10 chaos space marines, two flamers, and a rhino with havoc launcher as a focused infantry-killing unit.

Any tips? What combination of upgrades have worked the best for you?

Should I take a power sword on the sergeant because he is already a veteran and must challenge anyway?

Use it like any other squad. Transport, cheap leader, load up on one type of special weapon. (Tip: Don't compare CSM to Vanilla or any other SMs, you're just gonna make yourself sad)

Door stops?

They can bring two special weapons in a 10 man squad, so that's an expensive something. Mark of Nurgle for +1 toughness to everything can give a bit of an edge, as can Slaanesh. It also helps if you ever actually make it into an assault. You're kinda better off just converting them into havocs and having them shoot from downfield. Chosen are the worst choice, as they are so expensive, and they rarely will earn their points back. They get a turn of shooting and then they're done. CSM really are in a bad way right now. If you're just playing friendly games, they still have their uses. They're basically just a better version of a tac squad, so they're fairly flexible depending on their loadout. Cling to cover as much as you can as there's plenty of stuff that cracks open power armor these days. Another reason I like havocs is that the long range of the bigger guns allows for SOME safety. If they're not foot slogging, the only choices are a rhino that will get scrapped pretty quickly if you're not careful, or the worst variant of land raider. Rhinos can do okay if you drop the troops the run away and act as long range fire support. If they do more than dump the CSMs a little closer to the enemy, then bonus.

Convert them into Plague Marines or Noise Marines.

Get a dark apostle and run them in a Crimson Slaughter formation so they get FNP?
Call it a Word Bearers Army... You ain't winning a tourney but probably the best way to run that actual unit.

Or- pay out the nose for a max size unit w/ MoS and icon of excess- take 2 special weapons and give an extra CCW to everyone.... Infiltrate them using Huron.

I sometimes run a 10-man CSM squad in my Khorne Daemonkin army. I take the pistol/CCW loadout on the regular dudes, and 2 meltaguns as the specials, and put the squad in a Rhino. They can sort of do some tank hunting, and meltaguns aren't too bad against MC's or TEQ either. Probably not the most competitive choice but...eh.

I've had moderate succsess running a 20-man bp+ccw squad with Cypher and Huron for infiltrate. They get pretty resilient with shrowded and fnp from an icon if you run slaanesh. But pretty expensive and can't really deal with deathstars. But you can run Kharn and a bunch of unmarked marines with Cypher. They are 50 pt cheaper than slaanesh marines with an icon and Kharn chops things to death.

Another way to make them choppier is go psychic and get Mark of Khorne and an icon to reroll charge ranges and get furious charge. Bikabal will add a lot to mobility and will buff them with invis and potentially rending or +2 str. It's not super reliable and would fail against eldar but that's the best you can do with csm. Could potentially run a formation where they get free MoK, WAAAGH and potentially +1str on the charge - will save 40 points on the marks for the squad. But you'd have to get zerkers which is kinda payback.

5 in a rhino (with havoc launcher) with a plasma gun is okay

5 in a rhino (with combi melta) with a melta gun, combi melta and melta bombs is fairly cheap too and could be viewed as a poor man's melta bike unit but filling a troop slot.

A larger unit in a rhino with bolter, BP and CCW lets you shoot bolters on disembarking and then have the freedom to use them for close combat or sitting on an objective depending on the circumstances. Take special weapons to taste but flamers make sense here since you'd be wasting the anti infantry potential of the unit if you just used them as a meltagun platform. A power fist mitigates some of the weaknesses of the unit

If your list involves saturation of fast units you could get away with a 10 strong unit with swords and pistols in a rhino, possibly dropping a model for a cheap lord or sorcerer

For all plague marines are considered better than CSMs it's only 20 points more for 10 CSMs than 5 plague marines. Then the chaos marines can have double special weapons too, or a heavy weapon if you want to sit back

I just proxy my marines as space marines.

I thought about using the CSM unit in a Brethren of the dark covenant plus Fabius Bile. 20men strong, MoN. So you'll have 20 T5, FnP guys with zealot and S5. You'll pay around 600Points for the unit + Apostle + Bile and an additional possessed tax, but who cares .

Munga wrote:
They can bring two special weapons in a 10 man squad, so that's an expensive something. Mark of Nurgle for +1 toughness to everything can give a bit of an edge, as can Slaanesh. It also helps if you ever actually make it into an assault. You're kinda better off just converting them into havocs and having them shoot from downfield. Chosen are the worst choice, as they are so expensive, and they rarely will earn their points back. They get a turn of shooting and then they're done. CSM really are in a bad way right now. If you're just playing friendly games, they still have their uses. They're basically just a better version of a tac squad, so they're fairly flexible depending on their loadout. Cling to cover as much as you can as there's plenty of stuff that cracks open power armor these days. Another reason I like havocs is that the long range of the bigger guns allows for SOME safety. If they're not foot slogging, the only choices are a rhino that will get scrapped pretty quickly if you're not careful, or the worst variant of land raider. Rhinos can do okay if you drop the troops the run away and act as long range fire support. If they do more than dump the CSMs a little closer to the enemy, then bonus.

"A better version of a tac squad" Perhaps more flexible, but definitely not better.

 -v10mega wrote:
I just proxy my marines as space marines.

Nice. Use the Chaos Marine models, but Codex Space Marines for the rules.. Could lead to some interesting conversions.

An out of the box way is to go max squad, stick em in any transport that can fit them, then take Bile. You can then give them the Mark of Nurgle for essentially a squad of mini-Ogryns (S and T5, Fearless) for 16 points a pop (17 if you want an extra attack while keeping the bolter). Reason you go max squads is because Bile can only buff one squad like this, but a single squad of 10 in a raider works too.

It's not the most effective way, but it is something out of the box.

Every time I compare them to loyalist tactical marines that get ATSTNF, combat squads, free combat doctrines, and possibly free transports it just does not seem fair.

You're not wrong about that, but as soon as you embrace it, you will start having a lot of fun with them. They're so bad there's pretty much zero pressure when using them! That sounds sarcastic but I'm actually serious. I have found that if I take the same approach to my CSM as I do to my Orks, I not only have more fun, but I also have a *slightly* competitive force.

Much like Orks, I've found lately that they key to CSM (at least in friendly to semi-competitive games) is target saturation. Here's a basic summary of what I do:

Multiple squads of CSM w/ two plasma guns and MON if you have the points.
Each goes in it's own Rhino with Havoc launcher.

Then you need sorcerers. I like Belakor but if that's a no-go for whatever reason just get two standard sorcerers. You have two choices here. Use your sorcerers to cast invis., OR use them as a summoning force.

Then you want Obliterators (still the workhorse of the CSM Heavy slot after all these years). Deep strike them in for backfield disruption shenanigans.

Then, fill out your Fast Attack slots with bikers/spawn/Heldrakes - whatever you prefer.

If you have the points, ally in Demons to get more summoning. Summoned demons make great screens for your CSM.

The basic strategy is that your Rhinos all move upfield as fast as possible to unload all those plasma guns (or flamers if you like) right in the opponent's face. You want them very close. While that's happening the Oblits are hitting all the heavy units that can really threaten your Rhinos. Your sorcerers are either casting vis to keep one or two Rhinos alive long enough to get where they're going, or they're bringing in Demonic support.

Finally, once you're up in your enemies face with the CSM (and ideally sandwiching him between a wall of CSM and the Oblits), the fast attack units sweep in to really deliver the killing blow. I've been known to charge units with my CSM just to tie them up so they cannot shoot at my span or bikers.

This isn't a magic bullet and you'd have to be REALLY good to win a tourney with it, but it's definitely something I've found that keeps the CSM from being a pure auto lose army in most cases. Now they're just a "Likely to lose" army.

Convert them into Plague Marines. Seriously. Plague Marines get their special weapons for cheaper in the long run.

Oh. There's some formations in the Black Legion book that are fairly useful as well. I don't have the Crimson Slaughter book to tell, but I'm sure it's more about Possessed.

'Brethren of the Dark Covenant'-Formation of the Crimson Slaughter Sup is their best use imho:

Dark Apostle (although expensive & weaker than the normal lord) drops his shooting to give all models in this Formation Zealot & 5+ FnP in a 12" bubble.
1 Tax Unit of Possessed (although they're pretty decent with their Mutation table & this formation), 1 Apostle, 1-3 Unit(s) of CSM. Give them MoN and voila;
Cheap Plague Marines - 90Points for MSU marines with Hatred, Fearless & FnP goodness (or 180 points with MoN + Auto Cannon, 200 for 2x plasma; 70 cheaper than Plague marines.)

Or, give them MoK & Icon of Wrath, add some Melee weapons & you get WS 4 Berzerkers with possible Flamers, Hatred and FnP. And 4 Attacks when charging or getting charged (because of the Melee weapon) makes them.. OK, i guess. Not awesome because they're not scoring, somewhat pricey but still
quite nice.

CSM Troops aren't bad. Unfortunally they aren't good either.

I see two possibilities, and the second is highly specialised (not to mention costly and reliant on FW rules).

1) Go Iron Warriors. Use Vraks Heretics & Renegades as your main army (Soldiers, spawn and lots of artillery). Ally in the CSM for two minimum squads with flamers, Rhino (maybe MoK) to represent CSM overseers for the serfs (H&R). Use them for countercharges, assults and other specialized roles - for everything else use H&Rs.

2) Spartan Assult Tank + Legacy of Ruin: Auloth the Primodial Iterator + Dirge Caster + 20 CSM with cc weapons, MoK and IoW. Your CSM can charge without getting Overwatched, are almost certainly more than the enemy, have absurdly amounts of attacks and FnP. The cheap version is any combination of vehicle with Legacy: Auloth and big squads with IoW.

If you wanna play Chaos Marines play 30k/