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So we have the two prime souless beings in 40K. Both are beings of great fear and power. However, what would happen if they ever met?

Fluffwise and tabletop.

This is a question that has really bugged me for some time. I'm not good enough at mathhammer to crunch out the numbers and I'm really curious about what people think about them in the fluff.

Edit: Let me give some thoughts on this, just people get where I'm coming from:

Tabletop: Again, I'm not good enough to truly crunch the numbers. The Solitaire has higher WS (9) and BS (9) vs the Culexus' 8 in both categories. However, the killer clown only has S/T of 3 vs the assassin's 4. However, Solitaire has higher initiative (10) with more attacks (6) vs the Assassin's int (7) and (4) attacks. The assassin has an invul of (4) in his corner. Both have 3 wounds.

Fluff: This is the big one. The Solitaire can take down Greater Daemons by skill. However, the Culexus' does that by existing and is not slouch in combat. The big question is if the Culexus' null aura, as a pariah, can effect the Solitaire, a blank. Also, while the Solitaire has no soul, it's still an Eldar and naturally psychic. As you can guess, this kinda makes for a headache.

Solitaire all the way.

Solitaire has an invul of 3 and can Instant Death things.

Fluff is Solitaire. Ignoring physics and having no known limits to their power is pretty nice.

Rules I could not say catagoricly as you get stupid Monuments of chance.

Fluff
Solitaries .. They can break normal rules of universe and run on a ceiling or up a vertical wall.

Solitarie also own a 3++ save so it just straight better than Culexus most of the time.

Also Solitaries DO have souls, in fact they are the closest to a *pure Eldar* pre fall (Dark eldar may be somewhat affected due their regenerative process as it's been proven it affects them somewhat) they are just not willing to go down without making their enemies pay the biggest price possible...

fluff wise i see the Eversor assasina closer match to the Solitarie than the Culexus.

Lord Perversor wrote:
Solitarie also own a 3++ save so it just straight better than Culexus most of the time.

Also Solitaries DO have souls, in fact they are the closest to a *pure Eldar* pre fall (Dark eldar may be somewhat affected due their regenerative process as it's been proven it affects them somewhat) they are just not willing to go down without making their enemies pay the biggest price possible...

fluff wise i see the Eversor assasina closer match to the Solitarie than the Culexus.

I read somewhere that they have no souls and thus can't be touched by psychic abilities, though that may be old fluff.

As for the Eversor.: tbh I would have done that but there was already a thread on it, sadly.

They have souls, it's just that they are definitely going to Slaanesh on death, so they are doomed from the beginning. I think that has always been the case as far back as rt.

Yup, slaanesh gets their souls. At least, if Cegorach can't snatch them away first

The Culexus is cooler but doesn't stand a chance.

If by that question you mean who is better in CQC, the the Solitaire without a doubt. Especially if he/she charged whilst using Blitz.

Most assains are utter special purpose. Rage. Counter psyker, sniper, and stealth.

Solitare Is a cqb monster.

Doesn't the culexus only get hit as if the enemy had WS/BS1? Meaning that out of the solitaire's 6 attacks, only 2 can be expected to hit, and is only wounded on 5s, with a 4++ save?

Obviously blitz gives a decent advantage though, with 4 of the 12 attacks hitting on the charge with blitz, and then wounding on 4s to get 2 wounds, saving 1 for 1 wound to go through.

Compared to the culexus who gets D6 overwatch (from warp charges), which is an average of 3.5, which gives 3 shots (the max allowed from the D6 warp charges) as snap shots for .5 hits, then a 3++ for .138 wounds, then 4 attacks hitting on 4s to get 2 hits, then wounding on 3s for 1.33 wounds, then a 3++ which allows for a total of 0.578 wounds to go through. If the culexus survives the first round though, he deals the same 0.578 wounds a turn if the solitaire HnRs and charges, 0.44 if if he doesn't HnR in the same phase (to stop the shooting attack), while the solitaire would deal 0.66 on each turn assuming he's HnR and getting the charge, 0.39 if not charging.

That means the solitaire dies in 6 assault phases assuming the solitaire HnRs each time to prevent the culexus getting full BS shooting (0.76 wounds vs 0.138), and the culexus dies in 5 assault phases too, but solitaire gets the advantage with a possible instant death, but the solitaire deals his damage first, giving him the victory, even if it was close.

Solitaire wins on average, especially if they get blitz (keep in miond average of a D6 is 3.5, so on turn 3 the average movement with it is 10.5", slower than they normally move), and not counting any other possible source of warp charges/full BS shooting, and I THINK the culexus is the best choice of the assassins. Vindi might be able to get a lucky turbo in, or a bunch of shield breakers, and every other assassin pretty much just melts because of the solitaire hitting them on 3s. (solitaire also only deals 0.032 wounds more than the culexus each round of non blitz combat, but gets their damage in first)

Obviously correct me if I'm wrong in the math anywhere.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Doesn't the culexus only get hit as if the enemy had WS/BS1? Meaning that out of the solitaire's 6 attacks, only 2 can be expected to hit, and is only wounded on 5s, with a 4++ save?

Obviously blitz gives a decent advantage though, with 4 of the 12 attacks hitting on the charge with blitz, and then wounding on 4s to get 2 wounds, saving 1 for 1 wound to go through.

Compared to the culexus who gets D6 overwatch (from warp charges), which is an average of 3.5, which gives 3 shots (the max allowed from the D6 warp charges) as snap shots for .5 hits, then a 3++ for .138 wounds, then 4 attacks hitting on 4s to get 2 hits, then wounding on 3s for 1.33 wounds, then a 3++ which allows for a total of 0.578 wounds to go through. If the culexus survives the first round though, he deals the same 0.578 wounds a turn if the solitaire HnRs and charges, 0.44 if if he doesn't HnR in the same phase (to stop the shooting attack), while the solitaire would deal 0.66 on each turn assuming he's HnR and getting the charge, 0.39 if not charging.

That means the solitaire dies in 6 assault phases assuming the solitaire HnRs each time to prevent the culexus getting full BS shooting (0.76 wounds vs 0.138), and the culexus dies in 5 assault phases too, but solitaire gets the advantage with a possible instant death, but the solitaire deals his damage first, giving him the victory, even if it was close.

Solitaire wins on average, especially if they get blitz (keep in miond average of a D6 is 3.5, so on turn 3 the average movement with it is 10.5", slower than they normally move), and not counting any other possible source of warp charges/full BS shooting, and I THINK the culexus is the best choice of the assassins. Vindi might be able to get a lucky turbo in, or a bunch of shield breakers, and every other assassin pretty much just melts because of the solitaire hitting them on 3s. (solitaire also only deals 0.032 wounds more than the culexus each round of non blitz combat, but gets their damage in first)

Obviously correct me if I'm wrong in the math anywhere.

See this was what I was waiting for! And I forgot about the Etherium which does reduce all attacks against the Culexus to WS 1 and BS 1. In fact, this the big reason that I though the Culexus had a shot in the first place.

In melee, they both average about half a wound. This does not account for, however, charging (which doesn't change much) nor the chance for ID (which the Culexus does not get because of Solitaires EW). That said even with the charge bonus, the change is almost negligible for the Solitaire (0.056 additional Wounds), but it helps the Culexus a bit (0.148 additional Wounds, again not much). If the Solitaire Blitzes, however, in that turn he will inflict 0.75 Wounds, compared to the normal 0.472 Wounds.

Also, Wolfblade, how is the Culexus firing Overwatch? He can only fire the Animus Speculum in the Psychic Phase (IIRC it specifically says it cannot fire Overwatch).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically it comes down to the following:
Culexus has (on average) 3 shots in the Psychic Phase, which it will probably only get once. If that.
Solitaire swings first with more attacks (6 base, 1 for two weapons), one of which might have ID. If the Solitaire Blitzes, this becomes 11 Attacks base (10 on profile, 1 for two weapons).
The Culexus has fewer attacks but has a much easier time hitting and Wounding (3+/3+ vs 5+/5+ for the Solitaire), however, his Instant Death ability does not matter because of EW on the Solitaire.
Solitaire has a better save (3++ vs 4++) as well as Hit & Run to get the charge bonus every turn.

It's a normal shooting attack during the shooting phase with no restriction on overwatch as far as I can tell from looking at the rules, but I don't have the dataslate for the culexus around anymore. (Also, you forgot the +1 attack/strength for charging, and culexus hits on 4s, as the enemy is only counted as WS1 for purposes of attempting to hit the culexus. Also not entirely sure on your math there, a solitaire blitz should deal a full wound (12 attacks, 10 from blitz, 1 from charging, 1 from 2 ccw), 1/3 hit (4), half wound ( 2), and one gets saved by a 4++ (1))

I have had my Solitaire go straight through a Callidus, then a culexus, then the vindicare behind them only taking 1 wound the entire time. I did pop blitz against the culexus and got the charge both times (which he will, because he moves 12", runs, then charges all with fleet) but this guy is absolutely brutal at killing super pumped up characters like assassins whose high stats he can invalidate.

The Culexus can't overwatch with Speculum. Just checked it.

So as I see it:

The Solitaire's advantages:
- Higher Initiative
- WAY more attacks
- Blitz
- Hit and Run
- Possibility of Instant Death
- 3++
- Eternal Warrior negates Culexus' Instant Death

Culexus' Advantages:
- Etherium reduces Soltiare's WS 1

Ah ok, yeah even more so in favor of the solitaire then.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Ah ok, yeah even more so in favor of the solitaire then.

Man, this is a real landslide. I'm finding it hard to believe that White Dwarf did Solitaire vs Eversor several times and the Eversor won all them. He really just cuts through most of what's in front of him.

solitaire on average should murder the eversor with blitz fairly easily. on average 2 ID attacks, but assuming they don't go off, 2.66 unsaved wounds. Eversor only deals 1.6 between overwatch and the first round of assault.

Are we taking into account the Solitaire's Caress? 6's to hit will automatically wound at AP2, I believe. Since being WS1 from the Etherium will make him hit on 5+, that measn that half the attacks that actually hit will automatically wound.

I'd have to give it to the Solitaire on a 1 v 1 battle.
However, the Culexus is far more useful for an army and easier to access, since you can just add 1 Assassin to an army, whereas the Solitaire needs a formation for it to be purchased. A Culexus can potentially shut down an enemies' psychic phase, but a Solitaire tends to die before it hits combat.

You can still pick a Solitaire for whatever you like.

pm713 wrote:
You can still pick a Solitaire for whatever you like.

Not if you wish to stay Battle-Forged. It's basically the biggest advantage Assassins have over the Solitaire. If Unbound is a thing in your area, then Solitaire all the way. If not, choices are to be made.

Now I'm just picturing a staring contest between these two. Just locked in a dead-eyed gaze as the wails of the damned rise up through the warp.