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Hey guys,

For Vanilla Space Marines, there's the Chapter Relic The Armour Indomitus, which has the following description:

Armour Indomitus wrote:The Armour Indomitus confers a 2+ Armour Save and a 6+ Invulnerable Save. Once per game, at the beginning of any phase, the wearer can choose to temporarily push the armour’s force field to its limit. For the duration of the phase, the Armour Indomitus confers a 2+ Invulnerable Save.

Now, this Chapter Relic is costed at 60 Points. I think this is an over-costing of the item and here's why:

(1) Consider Artificer Armour which is an upgrade that confers a 2+ Armour Save (and can only be bought on HQ Choices).
-- -- I see this as the basis for The Armour Indomitus since the description doesn't say it's a set of Terminator Armour.
-- -- Artificer Armour costs 20 Points.

(2) Now consider the fact that the Invulnerable Save is a 6+ and the 2+ Invulnerable Save upgrade only lasts for one Phase.

Given (1), I do not see how (2) is worth 40 Points. 20 - 30 Points would be be the absolute maximum I would place on (2), meaning that I would cost this Relic at 40 - 50 Points.

So here's what I'm thinking:

(a) The price of this Chapter Relic is adjusted to something within the 40 - 50 Point band (with my preference being 45 Points).
-- or --
(b) The Armour Indomitus Takes the following profile: (i.e. it becomes Terminator Armour with the upgrade-able Invulnerable Save)

The Armour Indomitus wrote:The Armour Indomitus is a suit of Terminator Armour. Furthermore: Once per game, at the beginning of any phase, the wearer can choose to temporarily push the armour’s force field to its limit. For the duration of the phase, the Armour Indomitus confers a 2+ Invulnerable Save.

For Option (b), I would say that a cost increase to 65 Points may not be unreasonable, but may not be necessary since the Relic's base cost is 60 Points (which may adequately cover Option (b)).


So here's what I'm looking for:

-- Do you agree with my assessment?
-- -- If so, which option would you find more appropriate [(a) or (b)]? Or do you have your own option?

-- Do you disagree with my assessment?
-- -- If so, why?

-- Do you have any other comments on this Chapter Relic?

Cheers Guys

It was overcosted when it had Relentless too!

Add back Relentless (for the funky Range weapons and for those using Combi-Weapons) and cut it to 50 points. Still not good, but not giving a giant handicap either.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It was overcosted when it had Relentless too!

Add back Relentless (for the funky Range weapons and for those using Combi-Weapons) and cut it to 50 points. Still not good, but not giving a giant handicap either.

Fair enough. This is kinda why I like the idea of just making it Terminator Armour, especially if you're paying 60 Points for it. But yeah: Adding in Relentless and making it 50 Points would be good.

It shouldn't be Terminator armor. It isn't referred to as such.

Terminator has a lot of baggage associated with it. Bulky, can’t take it with a bike/JP, etc.

I like the relic armor as artificer armor++. I agree that it is overpriced, by quite a bit. The return of relentless would help.

6++ is mostly useless. Worth 5 points, using a combat shield as a base.

One issue is who can use it, and what they gain.

Captains/Chapter Masters gain some benefits. But they need it the least. They have access to artificer armor, and already have a 4++. So they are paying a premium to change their 4++ to a 2++ for one turn. Assuming they are not taking a storm shield, in which case they are upgrading a 3++. But durability boosts work best on guys with a lot of wounds, so they win there.

Chaplains can’t normally get a 2+ without TDA, but already have a 4++ as well, so share a lot of the issues as the captain. And how much do you want to invest in a 2W guy?

Techmarines don’t normally get an invuln, but start with AA.

Librarians gain the most from it. No access to AA, no invuln base. And even for them, 60 points is too much.

Quite frankly, as long as the Shield Eternal is available, the Armour Indomitus won't see play. I'd much rather have EW and a 3++ than a slightly better AA in my relic slot.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Quite frankly, as long as the Shield Eternal is available, the Armour Indomitus won't see play. I'd much rather have EW and a 3++ than a slightly better AA in my relic slot.

It doesn't take a Relic slot. Which helps, but not a lot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Quite frankly, as long as the Shield Eternal is available, the Armour Indomitus won't see play. I'd much rather have EW and a 3++ than a slightly better AA in my relic slot.

It doesn't take a Relic slot. Which helps, but not a lot.

You're only allowed one Relic per model as per the latest FAQ. The Armour Indomitus doesn't replace a weapon, but it's still a relic.

It is way too expensive. And on a Captain and Chaplain it's not even that useful. One turn abilities are always limited in their usefulness. Try busting it down to 30pts.

10pts for a 2++ for a phase seems cheap.

Perhaps it is. Maybe 35-40? Or price it as a combined artificer armour and storm shield set, that leaves both of its users hands free for weapons?

pm713 wrote:
10pts for a 2++ for a phase seems cheap.

Considering it's only for a phase, any more than 15 might be too much. As pointed out, the Captain and Chaplain down benefit from the 6+ Invul. because the already have the 4+. Plus you're paying 20 points for a 2+ Armour Save that lasts the entire game. 10 Points for a 2+ Invulnerable that only lasts a single phase does sound reasonable.

Aren't most SM relics either useless or ridiculously expensive? I thought that was normal.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Aren't most SM relics either useless or ridiculously expensive? I thought that was normal.

It is normal (at least in my experience), but that doesn't mean it should be the case haha. There's also things that some Chapter Relics don't account form such as if you play with Black Templars and pay for the Shield Eternal Chapter Relic, you're paying point for the Adamantium Will Special Rule when your Chapter Tactics already give it to you.

But in the case of the Vanillia C:SM, The Armour Indomitus is the worst offender in terms of being over-costed.

I'd put it at 30 points. Maybe 40, but at that price I'd never take it on a Captain or Chapter Master, and probably not on a Chaplain or Techmarine. I'd think about it on a Librarian for 40, and at 30 it's verging on a no-brainer. The line between "no-brainer" and "no way" is pretty fine here.

I had a think about it and I think 30pts is about right for what it can do.

It sounds overcosted, but if it was in the Ork codex I would take it all day long. Compared to Mega Armour it's not terribly costed.

How much do TDA and AA cost for Space Marine HQs?

xlDuke wrote:
It sounds overcosted, but if it was in the Ork codex I would take it all day long. Compared to Mega Armour it's not terribly costed.

How much do TDA and AA cost for Space Marine HQs?

25 and 20 respectively.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
It sounds overcosted, but if it was in the Ork codex I would take it all day long. Compared to Mega Armour it's not terribly costed.

How much do TDA and AA cost for Space Marine HQs?

25 and 20 respectively.

Damn. Runic and Terminator Armours cost the space Wolves 20-25 and 30-35 each! I can understand Runic since we get a 6++ save and Artificer doesn't but why does our TDA cost so much more when the Wolves barely use it?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
It sounds overcosted, but if it was in the Ork codex I would take it all day long. Compared to Mega Armour it's not terribly costed.

How much do TDA and AA cost for Space Marine HQs?

25 and 20 respectively.

Damn. Runic and Terminator Armours cost the space Wolves 20-25 and 30-35 each! I can understand Runic since we get a 6++ save and Artificer doesn't but why does our TDA cost so much more when the Wolves barely use it?

Old book and Space Marines get the updates first. We also pay more for Assault Terminators.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
It sounds overcosted, but if it was in the Ork codex I would take it all day long. Compared to Mega Armour it's not terribly costed.

How much do TDA and AA cost for Space Marine HQs?

25 and 20 respectively.

Damn. Runic and Terminator Armours cost the space Wolves 20-25 and 30-35 each! I can understand Runic since we get a 6++ save and Artificer doesn't but why does our TDA cost so much more when the Wolves barely use it?

Technically TDA costs 30 for Captains and Chapter Masters, but that includes a Power Sword for 15 points as well, so it's in theory a discount.

Thanks. This relic is really overcosted in comparison to those two upgrades then. 40 points seems a conservative price for it but 35 or even 30 probably wouldn't raise too many eyebrows.

External balance-wise I'm not sure what other factions pay for a 2+ save so it's hard for me to say how that works out, but going with Orks who pay 40 points for a 2+ save with Slow and Purposeful this relic in comparison would be a steal at anything less than 60 points. 40k is a peculiar game like that .

xlDuke wrote:
Thanks. This relic is really overcosted in comparison to those two upgrades then. 40 points seems a conservative price for it but 35 or even 30 probably wouldn't raise too many eyebrows.

External balance-wise I'm not sure what other factions pay for a 2+ save so it's hard for me to say how that works out, but going with Orks who pay 40 points for a 2+ save with Slow and Purposeful this relic in comparison would be a steal at anything less than 60 points. 40k is a peculiar game like that .

You get a 25-point Power Klaw as well, no?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
Thanks. This relic is really overcosted in comparison to those two upgrades then. 40 points seems a conservative price for it but 35 or even 30 probably wouldn't raise too many eyebrows.

External balance-wise I'm not sure what other factions pay for a 2+ save so it's hard for me to say how that works out, but going with Orks who pay 40 points for a 2+ save with Slow and Purposeful this relic in comparison would be a steal at anything less than 60 points. 40k is a peculiar game like that .

You get a 25-point Power Klaw as well, no?

Yeah indeed, that completely slipped my mind

This relic is pointless because a lot of the Marine HQ's;
A) Have access to relics in general (Shield Eternal anyone?)
B) Have options to take artificer armour and an iron halo
or
B.1) Have a Rosarius (4++)
C) Can take combat shields/storm shields (6++ and 3++ respectively)

for one phase push it to a 2+? I'd rather have a consistent 4++ or 3++. And Arti Armour with a Storm Shield costs something less than this iirc (Or slightly more, but the point is it's still more consistent)

AA and SS are 35 points, slightly less than half of the cost of the Armour Indomitus. Sure, you lose one attack to the Storm Shield, but whatever. The real killer is that the Shield Eternal is LESS points than the Armour Indomitus.

tbh with the minmax Smashfether, I wouldn't care about volume of attacks, the sheer brute force of what he can put out (Especially with Raukaan) is enough for me to be dealing with.