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So...Just picked up playing CSM and I’m finding that I am getting ABSOLUTELY MURDERED by Space Marine Raven Guard using combinations of Formations/Detachments in pretty much any game type at the moment. The main issue that I am really struggling with is the amount of units that can be brought in via. deep strike on turn 1 - especially those that can charge. Played a couple of games against this drop pod disgustingness and I am at a loss - also go into ultimate rage mode when i see the amount of formation rules that these shiny boys get compared to Chaos. Any advice from Chaos Players how to best counter auto arriving deep strike first turn chargers with AP3 and ranged weapons that wound on a 3+ ...?

I don’t want to go into every combination that ‘that guy’ is using but here is a rough summary of a few games played out:

‘Pinion Battle Demi-company’ -
TS (x3/x4) have 1 flamer & 1 melta sometimes grav cannon with grav amp in Drop Pod (storm bolters) all arriving on First Turn
DS have lascannons
Scout bikers have Grav/Astartes grenade - outflank, ignores cover grav guns winning(Y)

On top of this ‘that guy’ usually fields Vanguard Veterans - deep strike no scatter and charge on turn they arrive (with jet packs so hammer of wrath) then MURDER with the amount of AP3.
Usually play a couple of 1,000 pt games however the Pinion Formation above was used in a 2k game the other day against my CSM and the load out I had was roughly:

ML3 Sorcerer (Bio/Tel) MoT
Hell Cult - Hellbrute (2x powerfists) and blob
10 CSM + rhino with spiky bits (x3)
SPAWN
Hellturkey
Oblits
Havocs - missiles were a bad decision as no storm raven
Aegis defence line for comms relay

Anyone want to share similar experiences against fighting armies that can deep strike in the first turn? You don’t even need to be Chaos just would like to start a thread on best tactics against this so I can at least get a comeback bonus at the next game!

captaindreadman wrote:

I don’t want to go into every combination that ‘that guy’ is using but here is a rough summary of a few games played out:

‘Pinion Battle Demi-company’ -
TS (x3/x4) have 1 flamer & 1 melta sometimes grav cannon with grav amp in Drop Pod (storm bolters) all arriving on First Turn
DS have lascannons
Scout bikers have Grav/Astartes grenade - outflank, ignores cover grav guns winning(Y)

On top of this ‘that guy’ usually fields Vanguard Veterans - deep strike no scatter and charge on turn they arrive (with jet packs so hammer of wrath) then MURDER with the amount of AP3.

That doesn't sound like fun at all. I've never encountered an army like this but damned sure wouldn't play a second battle against it. I'm also glad I chose Blood Angels for my next army instead of Raven Guard.

For one, Pinion isn't objective secured, which is where it loses out. He must be getting lucky with reserve rolls for the pods. If you focus on his scouts in the SKT first then scouts in his Pinion he will be pretty neutered. Heavy flamers are your friend.

For two, spread out from the Vanguard if you know he takes them and bubble wrap with cultist.

For three, your list is not very competitive even for Chaos. Aegis is wasted points and your havocs are too.

captaindreadman wrote:
So...Just picked up playing CSM and I’m finding that I am getting ABSOLUTELY MURDERED by Space Marine Raven Guard using combinations of Formations/Detachments in pretty much any game type at the moment. The main issue that I am really struggling with is the amount of units that can be brought in via. deep strike on turn 1 - especially those that can charge. Played a couple of games against this drop pod disgustingness and I am at a loss - also go into ultimate rage mode when i see the amount of formation rules that these shiny boys get compared to Chaos. Any advice from Chaos Players how to best counter auto arriving deep strike first turn chargers with AP3 and ranged weapons that wound on a 3+ ...?

I don’t want to go into every combination that ‘that guy’ is using but here is a rough summary of a few games played out:

‘Pinion Battle Demi-company’ -
TS (x3/x4) have 1 flamer & 1 melta sometimes grav cannon with grav amp in Drop Pod (storm bolters) all arriving on First Turn
DS have lascannons
Scout bikers have Grav/Astartes grenade - outflank, ignores cover grav guns winning(Y)

On top of this ‘that guy’ usually fields Vanguard Veterans - deep strike no scatter and charge on turn they arrive (with jet packs so hammer of wrath) then MURDER with the amount of AP3.
Usually play a couple of 1,000 pt games however the Pinion Formation above was used in a 2k game the other day against my CSM and the load out I had was roughly:

ML3 Sorcerer (Bio/Tel) MoT
Hell Cult - Hellbrute (2x powerfists) and blob
10 CSM + rhino with spiky bits (x3)
SPAWN
Hellturkey
Oblits
Havocs - missiles were a bad decision as no storm raven
Aegis defence line for comms relay

Anyone want to share similar experiences against fighting armies that can deep strike in the first turn? You don’t even need to be Chaos just would like to start a thread on best tactics against this so I can at least get a comeback bonus at the next game!

Well... I mean... you know they can. I usually kind of like to lure them over to a bad spott and see if they are willing to over commit and null deploy my stuff so i can then tear them apart.

No target = alpha strike bad!

Those Vanguard don't scatter if they arrive within 9 inches of two scout squads from the same formation. If you're going first kill the scouts. Might be hard because of shrouded they get first turn, but at least you can try. Locator beacons are another nuisance which allows no scattering. These Vanguard also choose when to pass their reserve roll and in Talon Strike Force they can choose to do it turn 1.

Scouts and Scout bikes in Pinion are what grant other units in Pinion ignores cover. To be specific the scout sergeants do. If you want to mess around you could say only Scout sergeants, not Scout biker sergeants as it is written like that in the formation rules.

It's a pretty strong formation overall that relies on alpha strike and first two turns usually decide the outcome. Weather the worst by bubble wraps and maybe keeping some of your own units in reserve and you have a chance.

Null deployment. Take two CAD with atotal of 15 Nurgle Spawns and 3 Heldrake with Baleflamer (these unit will cost you total 1050pts only), 4 cultist, 2 Lords (with just bikes, other upgrade only if you have the points left) and ADL with Comms Relay. Put the Spawns on the table, preferably hiding behind LOS terrains and/or ADL, and put everything else in reserve. 45 T6 wounds in cover should survive the alpha strike (bolters and flamers gonna wound you on 6s; while Lascannons, melta and plasma could wound them easily, buuuut, Congratulations, two more wounds to go through to remove asingle Spawn model among 15), unless the RG player bring really good "counter to the counter" by taking 1st Company Task Force with intensed Sternguard and Vanguard (with Power Maul), you are not likely to get tabled in the 1st two turns. And when your Heldrakes comes in, just start the BBQ. Heldrakes should be able to eliminate one Squad of marines each per turn.

Alpha strike vs Rhinos is also super inefficient. I prefer this, as I hate reserves.

Looking at your opponents' list, I believe that Thousand Sons could actually be quite effective against it (heresy, I know, but we're all about heresy.) Anyway, you could try something like this:

CAD 1

HQ. Termi sorc level 3 spell familiar, mark of Tzeentch

Termi lord mark of Tzeentch, Burning brand of Skalathrax

Troops. Thousand sons x6

Thousand sons x5

Thousand sons x5

Fast. Heldrake
Heldrake

CAD 2

HQ. Termi sorc level 3 Spell familiar

Termi sorc level 3 Spell familiar

Troops. Cultists

Cultists

Heavy. Obliterators x3

Obliterator x2

Obliterator x2

Deploy in a refused flank while bubble wrapping with cultists. Use terrain to maximum advantage.

Roll for biomancy on the sorcerers. Endurance is very nice. Invisibility (telepathy) is good too if that's your thing. I just prefer biomancy, as you can also get enfeeble and other goodness.

Join the sorcerers and lord to the big oblit squad to form a fearless mini Death Star.

When the raven guard show up, they have to go after your cultists, and the response in your turn should be horrific.

The other two oblit squads may either deep strike in to deal with threats, or deploy with the army to add to your counter strike.

Also remember that, according to the new flyer rules, if your opponent neglects to bring any flyers, you will have air superiority. This means that you may add +1 to your reserve rolls on turn 2. This should get both drakes in to add to the conflagration.

tbh, there's almost nothing you can do with your current list against that.

But if you're willing to change the list, than like usual - more spawns, khornedogs, kharn, sorccabal...

Another option is to spam helbrutes. It's usually considered weak but against that specific list, helbrutes are gona be pretty effective due to how well they stand to vanguard vets and how much damage they can deal now. They're afraid of shooting though.

Couple things:

1. The pods, half come in per Drop Pod Assault, the other half can come in turn 1 (because of the RG strike force rules) but they still have to roll reserves. Only his shadowstrike vanguard get to choose to come in.

2. Your list is perfect matchup for this army. You have no chaff to bubble wrap your better dudes (eg cultists, zombies or renegade guard), most of the army can't circle the wagons (only 1 rhino) and no way to effectively null deploy (thanks to no drop pods in CSM).

Generally speaking the vanguard are what are doing a good amount of work for him, so you want to nullify them. Either by giving them only garbage to assault (cultists or rhinos) or only things that will take them on in assault (spawn with lords, khorne dogs with lords, etc)

3. You are using one thing that scares this type of army a good deal -- helldrake. I'd get one more in there if playing games against competitive lists like this one.

4. Take some time at home and setup your deploy with various terrain/missions/first turn and think through how the opponent will deploy and what you can do to make that harder. Might be you split your forces so he has to split his. You have a lot more long range fire so split (and with things like oblits protected or in DS) you can support your two groups better than he can. Or if you tweak the list, think through the bubble wrap and consequences to your own ability to support. Practice like this helps a lot more than people think.