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If you had to write a list of the things you would want changed in the 7E rulebook (without reverting to a previous edition), what would it be?
In addition to this, what aspects of any codexes would you wish to see changed?

For me:

7E BRB:
-6+D6" charge move
-Non-random psychic powers and warlord traits
-Rebalanced psychic powers and warlord traits

Eldar Codex:
-Windriders lose the 3+ save bonus (all other bikes are just a +1T deal)
-Windriders can only take one heavy weapon per 3 riders
-Wraithknight gets a nerf

Saw a good one I'm gonna steal. Make all Power weapons AP2, make a standard Librarian decent for once outside Psychic shenanigans.

Oh this thread again!

Well might as well post

-no D weapons in games less then 1000 points

-no mc or flyers in games less then 1500 points

- no super heavy walkers or gmc in games less then 2k points

-reduce the amount of AP 2 on the field

-make formations cost extra to take IE cost of the models then another 100 for the formation buffs

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oh this thread again!

Seriously. There isn't enough of these threads already, where the same people can make the same complaints, and then end up arguing 5th Edition was the best because even though it was broken in it's own ways, it didn't have all of the new toys that were added in 6th and 7th edition ?

Core rules wise?

Bring back 4E wound allocation
Dump Look Out Sir
Bring back 4E victory points instead of kill points.
Dump Hull Points
Bring back 5E vehicle damage table (but keep 7E passneger effects)
Change Jink to apply to passengers in full, disallow Assaults after Jinking or force them to assault as Disordered and as if they were charging through difficult terrain, allow FMC's to Jink only when Swooping but not gliding or walking.
By the same token, treat Smoke Launchers as a one time Jink.
Allow assaults from walk on Reserves
Allow assaults from stationary transports
Allow Skyfire weapons to shoot at ground targets normally.
Dump Maelstrom in anything resembling its current form.
Change up Eternal missions so tht HS or FA units arent liabilities in missions where they are supposed to be assets.
Dump formations, just kill the whole concept.
Dump multiple detachments
Dump unbound.
Bring back 4/5E ID and modified T rules, riding a motorcycle or a big wolf isnt going to make you any less of a red smear when hit by a Battlecannon.
Make Allies have to use FOC slots from the parent FOC with the number restrictions in the current Allied detachment (e.g. your army only gets 3 HS slots, one of which may be an Allied unit)
Return D weapons to their 4E rules and mandate that they cannot exist on non SH/GC units
Restrict SH/GC units to larger games.
Redo psychic powers, dump things like Invisibility and Shifting Worldscape.
Make
FNP and FNP like abilities can never be improved beyond 4+
Invuls cannot be better than 3+ except in rare instances (e.g. DE Shadowfield that cannot be used after the first failed save)
No rerolls on Invuls better than 4+.
No rerolls of 2+ saves of any kind.
Dump individual power weapon types, or at least swap Axes and Maces.
Shift the functionality of all Allies levels up by one, such that BB's operate as AoC's do now, AoC's as Desperate Allies, Desperate as CTA, and CTA means only in Apoc games.
Allow Blasts to fire as Snapshots with no scatter reduction for BS
Allow Templates to fire Snapshots, rerolling successful wounds.
Bring back 4E Fearless No Retreat drawbacks
Make Perils of the Warp a bit more dangerous
Bring back the 5E Mishap table.
Bring back 4E Dangerous Terrain rules.
Dump Mysterious everything (terrain, objectives, etc)
I'd be ok with dropping Warlord traits too.
Remove the restriction on firing Ordnance and other weapons.
Allow armies to null deploy and not auto lose.

There's more but thats everything I can think of for now. I'll keave the codex stuff for later...theres hundreds of things that could use redesign or tweaking.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oh this thread again!

Seriously. There isn't enough of these threads already, where the same people can make the same complaints, and then end up arguing 5th Edition was the best because even though it was broken in it's own ways, it didn't have all of the new toys that were added in 6th and 7th edition ?

I'm looking for a condensed version, preferably minus half the squabbling. I wanna see if I can copypasta the 7E rulebook into word, edit it with suggestions from here, and then see if it comes out with a workable ruleset.

In theory it would be easier than a full rewrite.

Most of 30k's changes being brought over would fix a lot of issues:

1) NO LOWs under 2,000 points, LOWs can only take up up to 25% of your total point cost, 1 LOW per army (certain ones can be multiple LOWs per slot)
2) ONLY troops score, certain units can be given a special rule to make them scoring. all other units are denial units.
3) Add a point cost to formations (a leaf out of AOS that I like)
4) Give ALL vehicles a 3+ armour save minimum. Glances cause a roll on the damage table at -3 (no hull points, though)
5) Increase marines (chaos and Loyalists) to T:5 with an appropriate point increase? (make them closer to the fluff without having to re-haul the entire line?)
6) Nerf grav to wound based on the bulk of the target (i.e. infantry is 5+, bulky is 4+, very bulky is 3+, anything larger (MCs, GMCs, Extremely Bulky, etc.) 2+)
7) Tone down commonly accepted "OP" units (jetbikes, warp-spiders, grav, etc.)
8) Reduce availability of AP: 2 weaponry (either by points or by changing stats)
9) Allow multiple grenades to be thrown in CC
10) Finish entire codex line BEFORE switching to new idea (i.e. formations, etc.)
11) Clean up redundant special rules (Sunder, Tank hunter, Wrecker, etc.)
12) Allow consolidation into other combats.
13) Change charge range to 6"+ d6" (or movement+ d6")
14) Army wide Tyranid buff: Make all Tyranids Beasts or Monstrous Beasts.
15) change Necron RP back to old style (end of phase save to see who stands back up. Can keep Decurion bonuses to the save though)
16) super-heavies are immune to 'Gause' and haywire only effects them on a 6 (the 6 is a glance in this situation, not a pen)
17) Walkers can rotate, even if immobilized
18) Bring back terrain rules.
19) D weapons back to being MUCH more rare
20) Other misc. Improvements to make melee viable again.

 Selym wrote:
If you had to write a list of the things you would want changed in the 7E rulebook (without reverting to a previous edition), what would it be?
In addition to this, what aspects of any codexes would you wish to see changed?

For me:

7E BRB:
-6+D6" charge move
-Non-random psychic powers and warlord traits
-Rebalanced psychic powers and warlord traits

Eldar Codex:
-Windriders lose the 3+ save bonus (all other bikes are just a +1T deal)
-Windriders can only take one heavy weapon per 3 riders
-Wraithknight gets a nerf

So what save are you giving windriders? We'll ignore the fact that the bike statement is wrong.

Move casting back to LD tests is my change along with making perils a wound without saves again.

In the process of my copypasta.

Rn the only suggestion that matters is "reduce rules bloat". Seriously, after font size reduction, fluff removal and image removal, I'm at around 200 pages of just rules.

This is not a feasible ruleset to use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

So what save are you giving windriders? We'll ignore the fact that the bike statement is wrong.

The 5+ other guardians get. As far as direct statline buffs go, my statement is correct - space marines don't get a 2+ for being bikers. Orks don't become 4+ or 3+ either.

 Selym wrote:
In the process of my copypasta.

Rn the only suggestion that matters is "reduce rules bloat". Seriously, after font size reduction, fluff removal and image removal, I'm at around 200 pages of just rules.

This is not a feasible ruleset to use.

once you factor out the paragraphs trying to close loop-holes and the MANY written examples of how the rules work, it's much shorter. Really, the worst 'offender' of rules bloat is special rules, and that's a relatively short section, IIRC.

 Selym wrote:
In the process of my copypasta.

Rn the only suggestion that matters is "reduce rules bloat". Seriously, after font size reduction, fluff removal and image removal, I'm at around 200 pages of just rules.

This is not a feasible ruleset to use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

So what save are you giving windriders? We'll ignore the fact that the bike statement is wrong.

The 5+ other guardians get. As far as direct statline buffs go, my statement is correct - space marines don't get a 2+ for being bikers. Orks don't become 4+ or 3+ either.

Harlequins do and every other bike I know of also grants the armour save. 5+ seems stupidly low although if I could get the other Eldar player at my store to believe that's a change it would be brilliant.

Where do other bikers get an armour save buff?

It's not in Orks, C:SM, CSM, BA, DA, SW...

It's a flimsy jetbike. It's durability comes from the Jink and +1T...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Selym wrote:
In the process of my copypasta.

Rn the only suggestion that matters is "reduce rules bloat". Seriously, after font size reduction, fluff removal and image removal, I'm at around 200 pages of just rules.

This is not a feasible ruleset to use.

once you factor out the paragraphs trying to close loop-holes and the MANY written examples of how the rules work, it's much shorter. Really, the worst 'offender' of rules bloat is special rules, and that's a relatively short section, IIRC.

Yeah. This is going to be a much longer project than I thought. After document-wide editing functions, I have 247 pages of A4 to fully edit. And in some cases utterly reformat the text.

*shudder*

 Selym wrote:
Where do other bikers get an armour save buff?

It's not in Orks, C:SM, CSM, BA, DA, SW...

It's a flimsy jetbike. It's durability comes from the Jink and +1T...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Selym wrote:
In the process of my copypasta.

Rn the only suggestion that matters is "reduce rules bloat". Seriously, after font size reduction, fluff removal and image removal, I'm at around 200 pages of just rules.

This is not a feasible ruleset to use.

once you factor out the paragraphs trying to close loop-holes and the MANY written examples of how the rules work, it's much shorter. Really, the worst 'offender' of rules bloat is special rules, and that's a relatively short section, IIRC.

Yeah. This is going to be a much longer project than I thought. After document-wide editing functions, I have 247 pages of A4 to fully edit. And in some cases utterly reformat the text.

*shudder*

Pretty sure all of those do except Orks. Do not know about Orks. So you have no shooting then. Making them terrible.

The reason Space Marines don't get better armour is the same reason their "open-topped" skimmer (Landspeeder) isn't actually open-topped: Space Marine armour is as hard as a vehicle Hull. If you take off the riders, an Eldar Jetbikle is just as hard (if not harder) than a space marine bike. hence the 3+ armour. And I believe Orks do, in fact, get 4+ armour on a bike.

I'd be happy with a 4+ armour on Windrider though, as it would "feel" more Eldar and get people to realize just how fragile they really are
Another Eldar change would be all Distort weapons are at -1 to the D-table (Scythes -2)

Back on topic, one of the major problems with 7th is the lack of structure in list building. I like the idea of only allowing 1 Detachment (of any kind) per 500pts. And require a "basic" detachment like a CAD or Special codex detachment as the mandatory BEFORE you can add Formations.
Using Come the Apoc allies automatically makes your army Unbound

MCs (and GMCs) take D3 wounds from any unsaved wound from Ordinance or Melta. GMCs are wounded by poison/sniper at a -1 to the roll needed (instead of a straight '6').
Stomps rolls of '6' are str 10 AP1, Instant Death
D-weapon rolls of '6' only cause D3+2 Wounds or HPs with no saves.

I do like the idea of minor tweak to the BRB, rather than an overhaul (which will probably have it's own problems)

-

Marine and DE bikes get no armor bonuses over footslogging counterparts. Orks...kinda do. They essentially get 'eavy armor as part of the bike upgrade, so it depends on on how you view them.

A easy way to reduce rules bloat is:

Remove the Psychic Phase and Psychic Powers chart. Return it to 4th/5th edition where you took a leadership test and bought your powers and they were used like any other pieces of wargear

Remove Melee Weapon Profiles. Power Weapons all do the same thing, Specialist Power Weapons are given a small page in the back like they did before.

No more formations/detachments and allies shenanigans. You get one standard FoC and one faction to choose from. This alone cuts away the majority of the bloat as we no longer need the Allies matrix, parts explaining about detachments and whatnot, and battlefield roles. We also don't need the ObSec rule anymore since you can either just say "only troop choices are scoring" or "everything scores unless stated otherwise".

No fortifications, leave that as an optional expansion

No flyers or FMCs, leave those for a flyer optional expansion

No Superheavies/D-strength weapons/ Gargantuan Creatures. Leave those for an Escalation expansion.

Remove the complicated "to hit" chart for Close Combat. Just have it compare to the enemy WS like Strength and Toughness so we only need one chart for comparing stats for rolls (No difference: 4+, difference of 1, 3+ or 5+, difference of 2-3, 2+ or 6, difference of 4 or more, no effect)

Remove Hull Points. Change Chariots to be like Walkers, but move and receive attacks like normal vehicles. Remove the rider profile and just merge them into the Chariot.

Introduce the "Flamer" weapon type so we don't need a full chart to know what is a flamer weapon and what isn't.

Remove the stupid cover save stuff. Make cover a modifier to your "to hit" roll instead.

Simplify Terrain to "light, dense, heavy" granting modifiers accordingly. For Bunkers that troops can enter, just have them treated as an Immobilized Transport vehicle with a certain AV value, Fire Points and Access Points and leave it there.

Remove excessive and redundant rules: So no more Very Bulky, Shrouded, and stuff like variants of FnP. All FnP are all a set value with no possible modifiers, all units that take up more than 1 slot are all Bulky, and none of this "Stealth + Shrouded" crap. You just get Stealth and that's it.

Remove the ridiculous CC rules. No more characters, challenges, overwatch, charge ranges and out-of-initiative stuff. And HoWs.

Simplify unit types. Jump Units move 12" in the movement phase. Jetpack units can move 6" instead of assaulting in the assault phase. Beasts/Cavalry have 12" movement and Move Through Cover, etc. And stop differentiating between Eldar Jetbikes and normal Jetbikes. There is maybe 5 units in the entire game that uses Jetbike rules so there's no point in dedicating a whole section to singling half of those out.

Speaking of that, Return MCs to "ignore armor in close combat, have 2D6 armor penetration and shoot two weapons per turn" and be done with it. No need to give them Smash and then write out another page explaining what Smash is.

Remove Warlord Traits entirely. While it's nice, it just seems excessive since no one relies on warlord traits right now anyways and it just adds more rules for the sake of adding more rules. Your Warlord's tactics should be based on his army and your generalship, not some random rule he pulled out of his bum.

Remove those tables for failed Deepstrike and Perils. Fail a deepstrike, go back into reserves to try again. Fail Perils, Daemons eat a wound.

Remove tossing Grenades; just have them function in CC (seriously who actually toss grenades regularly in games?). Assault Grenades negate Cover Bonuses, Defensive Grenades negate Assault Bonuses, Krak Grenades are S6 against Vehicles, Melta Bombs are Krak Grenades with the Melta Rule, and Haywire Grenades are Krak Grenades with the Haywire Rule (ignoring the strength).

That should have trimmed down about a hundred pages.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Marine and DE bikes get no armor bonuses over footslogging counterparts. Orks...kinda do. They essentially get 'eavy armor as part of the bike upgrade, so it depends on on how you view them.

DE bike actually does give a bonus (if you can call it that). The Reaver jetbike provides a 5+ armour, over the 6+ Wych-suit save of the rider.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Core rules wise?

Bring back 4E wound allocation
Dump Look Out Sir
Bring back 4E victory points instead of kill points.
Dump Hull Points
Bring back 5E vehicle damage table (but keep 7E passneger effects)
Change Jink to apply to passengers in full, disallow Assaults after Jinking or force them to assault as Disordered and as if they were charging through difficult terrain, allow FMC's to Jink only when Swooping but not gliding or walking.
By the same token, treat Smoke Launchers as a one time Jink.
Allow assaults from walk on Reserves
Allow assaults from stationary transports
Allow Skyfire weapons to shoot at ground targets normally.
Dump Maelstrom in anything resembling its current form.
Change up Eternal missions so tht HS or FA units arent liabilities in missions where they are supposed to be assets.
Dump formations, just kill the whole concept.
Dump multiple detachments
Dump unbound.
Bring back 4/5E ID and modified T rules, riding a motorcycle or a big wolf isnt going to make you any less of a red smear when hit by a Battlecannon.
Make Allies have to use FOC slots from the parent FOC with the number restrictions in the current Allied detachment (e.g. your army only gets 3 HS slots, one of which may be an Allied unit)
Return D weapons to their 4E rules and mandate that they cannot exist on non SH/GC units
Restrict SH/GC units to larger games.
Redo psychic powers, dump things like Invisibility and Shifting Worldscape.
Make
FNP and FNP like abilities can never be improved beyond 4+
Invuls cannot be better than 3+ except in rare instances (e.g. DE Shadowfield that cannot be used after the first failed save)
No rerolls on Invuls better than 4+.
No rerolls of 2+ saves of any kind.
Dump individual power weapon types, or at least swap Axes and Maces.
Shift the functionality of all Allies levels up by one, such that BB's operate as AoC's do now, AoC's as Desperate Allies, Desperate as CTA, and CTA means only in Apoc games.
Allow Blasts to fire as Snapshots with no scatter reduction for BS
Allow Templates to fire Snapshots, rerolling successful wounds.
Bring back 4E Fearless No Retreat drawbacks
Make Perils of the Warp a bit more dangerous
Bring back the 5E Mishap table.
Bring back 4E Dangerous Terrain rules.
Dump Mysterious everything (terrain, objectives, etc)
I'd be ok with dropping Warlord traits too.
Remove the restriction on firing Ordnance and other weapons.
Allow armies to null deploy and not auto lose.

There's more but thats everything I can think of for now. I'll keave the codex stuff for later...theres hundreds of things that could use redesign or tweaking.

I like pretty much everything here except I do like formations. Ether keep formations or balance all units to the point where they are useful to take without formations.

 Galef wrote:

I do like the idea of minor tweak to the BRB, rather than an overhaul (which will probably have it's own problems)

There may be a couple of system changes, and given the silly level of codex imbalances, I will probably have to redo those too.

Currently looking at wanton deletion of whole paragraphs, most of what GW wrote actually obscures the rules. In the first couple of pages, they use the terms "Model", "Creature", "Warrior" and "Soldier" interchangeably.

Already reduced page count by 4...

Something restricting the use of D-weapons to higher points games would be good. Maybe a set of rules for standard games that are restricted to the standard Force Organisation Chart, no formations and a restriction on D-weapons. A general buff to close combat would be good.

For the first of my two armies, AP2 for the DE Archon would be nice, the nerf from AP2 to AP3 and the points reduction for the huskblade wasn't necessary. There is also no reason why he shouldn't be able to take combat drugs. It would be nice if Wyches could take Haywire grenades again. There was also no real reason to get rid of Vect or any of the other special characters that were in previous Codices. In fact there were a lot of changes from the previous Codex that made the army worse when it didn't need to be.

For the IG, it would be nice to see the re-introduction of the doctrine system from two Codices ago. Again, the removal of a lot of special characters wasn't necessary and to not see a lot of the artillery pieces from the previous Codex return was disappointing. The genericisation of army lists has been a trend since 4th ed. Army lists have a lot less personality now I think.

Four tiers of play:

Kill Team - a model-level, narrative-driven squad combat game. Infantry, some beasts, some bikes, and limited transports allowed. 100-500 points

Skirmish - No superheavies or gargantuans, no fliers, no formations, no strength D, no allies. Standard CAD and similar role-based detachments are allowed. 501-1500 points

Warzone - Basically the game we have today with a few 30k rules adopted. Formations exist, but cost points. Fliers are allowed, but no dog fight phase. LoW are limited to 25% of total force. Battle Brothers is not a thing. 1501-2500 points

Apocalypse - More or less anything goes. Just put what you have on the table. Ally rules don't matter. I don't care if you're a loyalist, a heretic, or creepy murder robot with the soul of a fallen race, those guys are trying to take over the sector! Grab your Helldrake and your Monolith. I'll get my Knight Warden and meet you by the pile of dead bodies! 2500+ points

I say Warzone and Skirmish should overlap at the 1500-2000 points area. at 2000 points you need to get a bit creative with your FoC, but a lot of Skirmish-viable things would be better at 2000 points without being overshadowed by the D and flyers.

Also don't have unbound for Warzone; things still have to be battleforged but you can use Detachments and whatnot and not rely on CAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Kill Team should go up to 200 points, while 201-500 should be Combat Patrol.

Cool ideas so far

Progress Report:
I'm now working on Page 4 of my document. Kinda glad of all the formatting errors that copying from a pdf creates - it forces me to go through everything piece by piece.

I'm considering moving from a D6 system to a 2D6 system - in the hopes of allowing for the complexity that 40k seems to require, without using annoying abstractions.
The hope is that this will cut out a lot of the re-rolling, tables and modifier special rules.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I say Warzone and Skirmish should overlap at the 1500-2000 points area. at 2000 points you need to get a bit creative with your FoC, but a lot of Skirmish-viable things would be better at 2000 points without being overshadowed by the D and flyers.

Also don't have unbound for Warzone; things still have to be battleforged but you can use Detachments and whatnot and not rely on CAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Kill Team should go up to 200 points, while 201-500 should be Combat Patrol.

Yeah, the exact point values could be moved, but the main point is there should be different types of games to accommodate the different types of players.

Selym wrote:Cool ideas so far

Progress Report:
I'm now working on Page 4 of my document. Kinda glad of all the formatting errors that copying from a pdf creates - it forces me to go through everything piece by piece.

I'm considering moving from a D6 system to a 2D6 system - in the hopes of allowing for the complexity that 40k seems to require, without using annoying abstractions.
The hope is that this will cut out a lot of the re-rolling, tables and modifier special rules.

2d6 would make fast-dice more difficult. I think a d10 system would be more efficient if you are wanting to change to die type. d10s are also the only dice I know of other than d6s that are easy to find sold on their own.

Hmmm... Fast rolling on 2D6...

Let's say I worked out a system whereby to hit with a shooting attack, you had to roll a 7 on a 2D6. On a double 1, you Gets Hot, and a double 6 you do two wounds instead of 1 (so that you have to differentiate between rolls fully). And lets say that there are 24 shots to make.

That's an issue with 2D6. Ima need to rethink that. The only solution I have atm is 24 pairs of separately coloured dice. Or a Dice Roller app.

D10 may be easier, but it's less aesthetically pleasing on the rules to me :E

I'll look into both.

1. The Blast center doesn't have to be over a model when firing a Blast Weapon.
2. You can charge out of a stationary transport.
3. Swarms are treated as having Eternal Warrior outside of attacks from Blasts and Templates.
4. ATSKNF only allows a reroll against Fear tests instead of ignoring them entirely.
5. Soul Blaze is rolled on a D6 instead of a D3.

Then all we need is tweaks to the various codices. I mostly fixed the internal balance of the Space Marine codex in the proposed rules subforum, and I'm slowly working on CSM. After that it is either Necrons or Eldar, and then afterwards comes Orks.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Make all Power weapons AP2

I actually think that adding AP to power weapons was one of the few good changes from 6th, so I'd keep it. It made Unwieldly CC weapons viable.

The biggest chage I'd like to see is elimination of battle brothers in it's current state.

Yeah on one hand people seem to want AP2 PW, but also want to reduce the amount of AP2

After some sleeping, I realised that a 2D6 gas the same result output as a D10.

D10 it is.

@Selym.
Just a few points I would like to raise.

If you keep the limited results of the current resolution methods, even using a D10, you will have to use special rules to add variation to represent the variation in targets.

EG if a SM with a Las Cannon hits any thing any where in range on a 4+ on a D10. It still fails to cover the massive variation in target size silhouette and agility found in opposing units in 40k.

Also fast rolling with D6 is MUCH MUCH easier than fast rolling with D10.

If you do not believe me , try fast rolling 30 x D 10 20 times and see how long it takes.
Then do the same with 30 x D 6 20 times and see the time difference!

I would suggest you seriously consider opposed rolls using a D6, for all combat resolution .As this give the variation in the core resolution we need to reduce the need for special rules , while keeping the D6 we are all familiar with.