Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I was poking through the FAQ for some other information when I reread the inside arc at range x section and I'm not sure if I understand it right... but it seems to imply that tactician triggers against the enemy ship if any part of the ship is in the primary arc at range 2.

Using the firespray example the ship range is calculated from closest to closest so it's range 1 for the purpose of determining attack dice. But part of the ship is inside arc at range 2, so tactician triggers.

The other example is where the TAP has no part of its base inside arc at R2. (Considering only the tactician question here)

So what happens when you have a ship where closest to closest is in arc at r1, but part of the base is in arc at r2? By my reading tactician would still trigger (though somewhat tangentially TLT would not b/c range is always closest to closest ).

I could be wrong here, but this would seem to make tactician a lot more useful against large base ships where the range for shooting is 1 but a good chunk of the base is at r2.

What say you?

It's an incredibly specific set of circumstances, but yes, you're reading it right.

For effects that require the target be in arc, you only measure within arc.

For Tactician that's an irrelevance usually, as you need the ship in arc to shoot, so R2 is R2.

However, it's conceivable that with a turret, the shortest range could be outside of the arc, yet there still be an element of the target's base in R2 of the arc.

Huh, we'll that is very good to know. That makes Tactician pretty dang good for it's point costs.

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's an incredibly specific set of circumstances, but yes, you're reading it right.

For effects that require the target be in arc, you only measure within arc.

For Tactician that's an irrelevance usually, as you need the ship in arc to shoot, so R2 is R2.

However, it's conceivable that with a turret, the shortest range could be outside of the arc, yet there still be an element of the target's base in R2 of the arc.

See, the way I read it is that it doesn't matter if some of the ship is in arc at r1. The card says that if the target is inside the arc at range 2... so if there is any part of the target that is in the r2+arc bubble, Tactician triggers

That is a notably broader set of circumstances than one might think

You need to read the FAQ on this. It's a rather complicated issue that FFG has gone back and forth on, trying to interpret the cards directly is not really an option.

I thought that if part of the ship was in arc and at range 1, then Tactician doesn't trigger. Ranges are always calculated from closest to closest not closest to most convenient.l, no?

Otherwise, you could decide to target the back of that base with your TLT, it's at range 2 after all.

Here's the thing, for purposes of tlt, that wouldn't be the case, as for deciding range of weapons is done from closest point to closest point. What apostasus is asking for an example is a ship parallel to yours, with its base evenly splitting the R1-R2 line. For shooting, the closest point is in R1, but the base is also in arc and in R2. Does tactician trigger or not?

Personally I don't think it does, as I would judge the range specifications from a shooting standpoint, not just arbitrary range. But I would LOVE to be proven wrong here.

Some counter-points would be for instance autothrusters. Just because I am halfway out of your arc doesn't mean I get my out of arc bonus. And just because I'm straddling range 2-3 doesn't mean I get the bonus either.

There's the very rare case where the in-arc point of a ship is in R2, but the turret portion is in R1 for the benefit, or R3 for the purposes of the new mobile arc (a case which is mentioned in the new large scum ship) tactician will trigger while still technically outside or inside of R2.

Other than that I believe that if you are measuring a distance from a specific point (any point on the base to closest point for turrets and general range, or from the base in arc to the closest point in arc), you have to choose the closest distance.

Again, stop trying to interpret the cards and read the FAQ for tactician where FFG gives you an explicit answer:

Ships attacking with turret weapons must measure from
closest point to closest point when determining range.

The ship must be in your arc, and the closest point (including points out of arc) must be at range 2.

The specific bit of the FAQ in question.

Apostasus wrote:
So, I was poking through the FAQ for some other information when I reread the inside arc at range x section and I'm not sure if I understand it right... but it seems to imply that tactician triggers against the enemy ship if any part of the ship is in the primary arc at range 2.

Using the firespray example the ship range is calculated from closest to closest so it's range 1 for the purpose of determining attack dice. But part of the ship is inside arc at range 2, so tactician triggers.

The other example is where the TAP has no part of its base inside arc at R2. (Considering only the tactician question here)

So what happens when you have a ship where closest to closest is in arc at r1, but part of the base is in arc at r2? By my reading tactician would still trigger (though somewhat tangentially TLT would not b/c range is always closest to closest ).

I could be wrong here, but this would seem to make tactician a lot more useful against large base ships where the range for shooting is 1 but a good chunk of the base is at r2.

What say you?

Let me see if I understand you correctly Ship A has large ship B in primary firing arc at range 1, but some of the ship is within range 2 correct?
I believe that tactician would not trigger in this specific scenario. Why because the ship by the rules is at range 1 and not 2, if tactician said in arc within range 2 it would work. In the diagram it works because it was using a turret weapon and the range 1 was out of arc, while the portion in arc was at the range 2 area.

 Peregrine wrote:
Again, stop trying to interpret the cards and read the FAQ for tactician where FFG gives you an explicit answer:

Ships attacking with turret weapons must measure from
closest point to closest point when determining range.

The ship must be in your arc, and the closest point (including points out of arc) must be at range 2.

Actually, Peregrine, this is specifically declared as wrong in the FAQ. They specifically show a case where the turret is r1 but arc is r2. And the FAQ says that Tactician does trugger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Miradorm wrote:

Let me see if I understand you correctly Ship A has large ship B in primary firing arc at range 1, but some of the ship is within range 2 correct?
I believe that tactician would not trigger in this specific scenario. Why because the ship by the rules is at range 1 and not 2, if tactician said in arc within range 2 it would work. In the diagram it works because it was using a turret weapon and the range 1 was out of arc, while the portion in arc was at the range 2 area.

But Tactician specifically says "After you perform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at Range 2, that ship receives 1 stress token."

The enemy ship (parallel or not) is inside the portion of the firing arc that is at range 2. To me, and given that the FAQ has specifically said there's a difference between range measured for firing and range measure for Tactician.


Disclaimer: I have never run tactician in any of my lists and have no specific plans for any stress list. (In fact I mainly run Imperial aces so a broader definition of tactician is actually a bad thing for me). I just found this an interesting (possible) loophole that might bring some of the Rebel stress lists back to where they might compete against palp aces

Apostasus wrote:

Miradorm wrote:

Let me see if I understand you correctly Ship A has large ship B in primary firing arc at range 1, but some of the ship is within range 2 correct?
I believe that tactician would not trigger in this specific scenario. Why because the ship by the rules is at range 1 and not 2, if tactician said in arc within range 2 it would work. In the diagram it works because it was using a turret weapon and the range 1 was out of arc, while the portion in arc was at the range 2 area.

But Tactician specifically says "After you perform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at Range 2, that ship receives 1 stress token."

The enemy ship (parallel or not) is inside the portion of the firing arc that is at range 2. To me, and given that the FAQ has specifically said there's a difference between range measured for firing and range measure for Tactician.s

Its still range 1, if you look at the column at the left of the graph you will see the "At vs Within" section which explains it, and then read the section above the graph "Inside Firing Arc at Range X". For tactician to work in primary firing arc it has to be partially in range 2 and can extend into 3, but never in arc range 1 extending into 2.

Apostasus wrote:
So what happens when you have a ship where closest to closest is in arc at r1, but part of the base is in arc at r2? By my reading tactician would still trigger (though somewhat tangentially TLT would not b/c range is always closest to closest ).

If it's a non-PWT or Turret upgrade, Tactician doesn't trigger because "at" is always measured by the closest point. For Tactician on a non-PWT ship firing a non-Turret upgrade, if the closest point of a valid target is in your arc, the card triggers. If the closest point is at range 1 but part of the base is at range 2, Tactician does not trigger.

The only time this would be different is in a scenario like is described in the FAQ.

EDIT: Miradorm ninja'd me! What he wrote is accurate and the section he referenced explains it.

Apostasus wrote:
Actually, Peregrine, this is specifically declared as wrong in the FAQ. They specifically show a case where the turret is r1 but arc is r2. And the FAQ says that Tactician does trugger.

You are correct, the quote was from an older FAQ. WTF FFG, why do you keep your old FAQs up where they show up as the top search result?

Thanks @Miradorm for the reference. I stand corrected.

(I did have a sneaking suspicion that it was too good to be true, but part of me wanted to see big ships get a bit nerfed)