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Hello Dakkanites, I have a query. I have a tournament coming up on Saturday and I can't decide between a Stormlance or a Demi-company as my Core unit in a Fist of Medusa formation (Iron Hands). Which do you think is better, for what situations? I intend on running them fully mechanized anyway (I am more of a fluff gamer than a competitive one) so I have plenty of rhinos, I just can't determine whether the Doctrines + Obsec will be better than the Mobile Firebase + Clear and Sweep?

I am assuming that regular Demi-companies are the way to go, otherwise I would have seen more Stormlances lately. But I think it might play into the strengths of my Iron Hands, so I was considering giving the Stormlance a shot.

Stormlance is better if your in a play environment where the bolter shots can put in work. A lot of players forget that 8 bolter shots equals a lot of dead stuff to non imperium armies. Than you can jump back in the rhino for safety.

I'm thinking that with grav tactical squads it can really benefit because they get salvo. Pop out, blast away, then jump back in and cruise off? With Iron Hands IWND and a techmarine on a bike running around to improve repairs, that should help keep the rhinos alive longer (or require more firepower to be spent killing it). Also, it is almost like jetpacks for my infantry... even if their rhinos are popped they can shoot and then move.

I'm thinking the best way to utilize this is to combine it with a small CAD. That way, the obsec units can move in behind the front lines of objective sweepers and take the objectives. I intend to make them heavy backlines, such as Centurion Devastators and stuff I can't get in a Stormlance anyway. I also want to make my tactical squads in the storm lance full-strength, so that they can maximize their firepower output.

For Fist of medusa - take an armored task force core. Tactical squads are garbage - avoid them like the plague. The vehicles in medusa get POTMS withing 12" inches of an ironhands IC and +1 to their IWND. This is a huge benefit. Techmarine is required but hes awesome for you anyways then - 3 single vindicators is what I like to do. 3 Dakka preds is pretty cheap and not to bad of a tax too.

 CKO wrote:
Stormlance is better if your in a play environment where the bolter shots can put in work. A lot of players forget that 8 bolter shots equals a lot of dead stuff to non imperium armies. Than you can jump back in the rhino for safety.

No such environment exists. 8 bolter shots is garbage against nearly every foe.

 Xenomancers wrote:
For Fist of medusa - take an armored task force core. Tactical squads are garbage - avoid them like the plague. The vehicles in medusa get POTMS withing 12" inches of an ironhands IC and +1 to their IWND. This is a huge benefit. Techmarine is required but hes awesome for you anyways then - 3 single vindicators is what I like to do. 3 Dakka preds is pretty cheap and not to bad of a tax too.

Thanks but that's not the point of this topic. I am looking for comparisons between the Stormlance and the regular Demi-company.

Everytime I want to try out new formations for Space Marines I just can't compare any to Gladius. Objective Secure and Free Transports is just too good to second guess any other Detachment.

That be said, you want to know whether Stormlance is worth it over Demi-Company. For similar reasons, I'd always go with the Obsec over special rules.

If you were to compare the two side by side, you are asking yourself, is twin-linked weapons (while aiming at a unit that is on an objective) and the ability to shoot 8 bolters and a friend better than everything being Obsec and psuedo-TL shooting/melee (for 1 turn)... I'm going to have to go with obsec.

The tax you have to take in these formations is a little overwhelming. Personally I only consider the formations good for obsec and free transports. Obviously, you wouldn't benefit from the latter but that's an army preference.

I never expect the 3 Tacs, 1 Dev, and 1 Assault squads to do anything except maybe hold an objective. So in my mind, it would be ideal to give them objective rather than a situational TL and shoot & scoot.

Martel732 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Stormlance is better if your in a play environment where the bolter shots can put in work. A lot of players forget that 8 bolter shots equals a lot of dead stuff to non imperium armies. Than you can jump back in the rhino for safety.

No such environment exists. 8 bolter shots is garbage against nearly every foe.

I am mistaken in my post what I was trying to say is that when you combine the bolters with razorbacks and a special weapon! Imagine a las/plas razorback with a unit of marines with a plasma gun. Everyone wants to completely eliminate the enemy but if you kill 1-2 scat bikes you greatly reduce the number of str 6 shots coming at you. Warpspiders are t 3 the bolters hurt them a lot easier than you think.

Okay that's a lot different than 8 bolter shots. The plasma might force a jink.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay that's a lot different than 8 bolter shots. The plasma might force a jink.

The bolters might force a save that kills 33% of the time.

 CKO wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay that's a lot different than 8 bolter shots. The plasma might force a jink.

The bolters might force a save that kills 33% of the time.

You say that like we should be impressed

If your going Fist of Medusa, you have to go...

A. FNP Deathstar build
B. Tank spam with tech marines build.

Like others already said... those 2 formations suck lol

 CrownAxe wrote:

 CKO wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay that's a lot different than 8 bolter shots. The plasma might force a jink.

The bolters might force a save that kills 33% of the time.

You say that like we should be impressed

I am not trying to impress anyone I am saying that bad things can happen to your opponent when they start rolling dice even if its just 2 or 3 dice.

Really the issue is getting within 12" without getting shredded. Yeah, there's drop pods, but that only gets you one shot.

Your inside a rhino/razorback getting close is not an issue. No one looks at 5 marines with a plasma gun in a razorback as a serious threat when they have command squads on bikes with grav-guns with improve feel no pain saves on the field. Stormlance gives tact squads the ability to use their entire arsenal and be safe its not game changing but it hurts.

There are certainly other arguments to be made for other formations in competitive play, BUT if we are looking purely at the Stormlance and Demi, the Demi is better in every scenario. Gets you a tac doctrine when you need that crucial reroll, and ObSec. Plus, it allows you to have drop pods, or to not buy transports, which the Stormlance doesn't. Since I assume you'll have a command squad on bikes in the Fist of Medusa, to benefit from all those FNP buffs, I recommend a Demi to give them ObSec. The Stormlance buffs really pale in comparison. The only time you'll benefit anything more than a few bolter shots from getting out of your transport to shoot is if you have a razorback. And, at full points (IE not in BattleCo) a razor isnt that good. A pod or Rhino in a Demi will let you shoot out the top/DS and that TL heavy bolter isnt worth 20 points. You'll get to shoot your special weapons anyways, so do it out of a rhino and get ObSec. Or, go pods.

(Again, if you are going fist of medusa, there are certainly other builds besides the two you requested comparison of, such as the armored task force)

 CKO wrote:
Your inside a rhino/razorback getting close is not an issue. No one looks at 5 marines with a plasma gun in a razorback as a serious threat when they have command squads on bikes with grav-guns with improve feel no pain saves on the field. Stormlance gives tact squads the ability to use their entire arsenal and be safe its not game changing but it hurts.

I'm going to shoot a very different kind of weapon at the razorback, though. The best counter for the command squad might be CC tarpit, freeing me up to shoot all the AV 11 transports. Remember that the shooting list always gets to choose its targets.

Martel732 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Your inside a rhino/razorback getting close is not an issue. No one looks at 5 marines with a plasma gun in a razorback as a serious threat when they have command squads on bikes with grav-guns with improve feel no pain saves on the field. Stormlance gives tact squads the ability to use their entire arsenal and be safe its not game changing but it hurts.

I'm going to shoot a very different kind of weapon at the razorback, though. The best counter for the command squad might be CC tarpit, freeing me up to shoot all the AV 11 transports. Remember that the shooting list always gets to choose its targets.

Stormlance keeps the tact squad safe and I am not about to play the theory game so you are right okay!

I'm just being devil's advocate here. Being a BA player, it's always better to get the free transport, trust me.

I know that the demo-company is better I was pointing out the good with the storm lance.

If the storm lance revolves around popping in and out of transports, you have to accept that your opponent might put extra emphasis on disabling them. AV 11 is a superior target for S 6/7 with AP worse than 3 anyway.