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If there is any interest, I'd like to potentially discuss all the units in the codex here, as well as forge world. Specifically, I'd like to see what units people have been using and having consistent success with, as well as the circumstances of said success (was it Maelstrom, Eternal War, ITC etc). I know IG is in a bit of a rough spot, but we do have a huge variety of units to draw from when including FW, and, as I'm sure most people don't have experience with each and every one of them, it would be helpful to pool experiences so that we might form a more comprehensive idea of which units are decent without each of us going out and buying them all. Stick to IG lists (Codex, ABG, Elysians, DKoK and so on).

I'll start with the units I have experience with, mainly in Maelstrom and ITC missions:

AM Codex:

HQ
CCS - Probably my favorite HQ due to the weapon/war gear options. Senior Officer orders are key as well, so much so that I find myself taking two of these units in infantry/artillery heavy lists. Fairly useless in a mechanized list because there generally isn't anyone to issue orders to, and 4 special weapons in a chimera is usually a waste. Good in all mission types (unless you are running a mechanized infantry list) mainly due to how versatile their load outs can be.

Yarrick - Good in a blob, but I find him very expensive for what he does. Also doesn't have stubborn for some reason. My experience with Yarrick is always the same; his blob dies around him and he is left alone tanking all the hits until I finally fail the 3+ revive roll. I don't find him useful.

Lord Commissar - I like this guy because he can hide in a Vendetta all game in order to deny the other side Slay the Warlord. He is also easy to attach to a mechanized squad in a Mech list. I've barely given any thought as to his wargear options/combinations because that's all I see him as useful for really; a cheap HQ choice that can be hidden easily in a list that doesn't need orders. I quite like him for those reasons.

Tank Commander - I really don't like the mandatory squadron. If I want a BS4 Russ (and I often do) I run the ABG list for the superior Tank Commander there.


Troops
Platoons - Good for a defensive blob. Can be buffed to ridiculous levels with allies (at a cost), but very mediocre without them. They are also very static; in my experience, if they leave cover they will be mowed down so quickly that they cannot actually make any forward progress up the board. However, I feel they have their place behind an ADL to protect the artillery in an inf/artillery list (it's not like you have any other options anyway). The Platoon Command Squad is a horrible tax that I usually never have a use for; the Junior Officer orders are mediocre, I don't want to waste points giving BS3 models anything other than flamers, and I don't want to waste Vendetta transport space on them either in order to bring those 4 flamers to their target. 4 Sniper rifles is alright because it's cheap, I suppose.

Veterans - Not much needs to be said about them. They are probably one of our best units, incredibly versatile and useful in just about every list/mission type.


Fast Attack
Vendetta - Great vehicle, useful in every mission type, but I would never take it out of the codex. You can get the totally superior vintage version in the ABG list.

Sentinels - I don't like the Scouts, but I like the armored variety en mass, most especially in the Emperor's Talon Recon Company. I do find single model units of them useful as cheap tar pits in a mechanized infantry, armored, or infantry based list. For their price I don't think I've ever been disappointed with them and I think they are underrated. I like them with either the heavy flamer, auto cannon or multilaser depending on what they are going to be doing.

I don't find anything else in the Codex list useful in the fast attack slot.


Heavy Support

Wyverns - I don't own any but people sing their praises no doubt for good reason. For 65 points I can see why people consider them an auto include.

Leman Russ - I love them thematically and aesthetically, but they always struggle to be useful for me. The Exterminator is at least reliable and probably the variant I find most consistently useful. The Punisher is totally outclassed by the Vulture, the ordnance versions are terribly overpriced, the vanquisher is only useful in the ABG list, the Eradicator does have a place, but I don't like it because killing GEQs is one thing that Guard doesn't seem to struggle with already.

I find every other heavy support unit in the codex is either better off taken, in some form or another, out of a FW list, or simply isn't useful for what it costs.





I will update this as I have time.

Troop :

Platoon : 50 platoon with inquisitor and 5 autcanon, behind an ADL.
Cost a lot, but usually works very well, be it at surviving or putting so much pressure on a huge part of the board that it denies a lot to my opponent. See vendetta for SWS suicid squad.

Fast Attack :
Valkyrie is good to transport full squad, plus, multiple rocket pod is kinda nice to force tons of saves. I mostly use it for veterans.

Vendetta : i really like it to transport very small squad... such as.. suicid special weapon squad. 3 demolishing charge ALWAYS get their point back, and the vendetta serves both as tank hunter and flyer hunt.

Demolisher : math-hammer. If you're not sure to have enough luck, use this. I mostly use it to deal with broadside, obliterators, centurions and ofc, termies. Plus, ordinance PA 2 is kinda efficient at tank hunting. pretty resilient and good DISTRACTION CARNIFEX

Vanilla battle canon version is also fine but... i never get enough us for it unless i wish to run mobile force, i'm mostly a blob+infantry player, and battle canon is outclassed by basilisk.

Manticore : can't say it enough, the emprah sent us his best killing machine in the form of the manticore. i mostly run two of them, not squadrons, and i try to maximize their damage output by using prescience on them. They're versatile as it gets. Sniping IC in the middle of a squad ? Destroying vehicles ? even better, vehicles squadrons. Instant Death on pretty much everything, the issue would be the AP, true, the cost, true, the random part... true... limited ammunition ? hardly ever get to that, your enemy most likely will target the gak out of them because they can apply insane threat at the other side of the board.

Basilisk : str9ap3, infinite rang(or almost) what can we say about it ? only 2+ and high cover save units can ignore it.

Wyvern : well, the only things that's really "bad" about it, is the explosion range, not ordinance, small blast is always hard to get multiple models hit, thankfully, it's 4 twin linked shred ignore cover blast. Insanely good against hordes and snipers like units in covers, still decent against elites armies 2+/3+ saves isn't enough to guard against it. I mostly run 3 of them in a squadron and usually make their point back at first turn. good pressure, low cost.

Commissars : I have hard time using them, i find them subclass inquisitors, and since i'm playing anti xenos fluff wise, inquisitors take the place of the commissars.

Scions.. Now they're hard to play with, i don't see how to make them useful. Their price is over the top for T3, str3 shots, 4+ save... They're still decent, i just didnt find the way to use them correctly.

Hellhounds : and variants, they're sick, but the meta i'm used to play in is heavy shooty anti tank... they're don't live through first turn because my opponent always know what they can do, and they fear this.

ratling : most of the time, they die after they're shot at. i don't know how to use them, prolly.


I find pretty much every unit to be good, or to become good with the introduction of allies or formations.
The hard part is to combine a force good enough to be able to deal with the type of mission you'll be playing, against the type of player you'll be playing against.

If the type of mission is random, you'll need either to be very very very specialized and good at what you specialized or... be very good to counter everything.

Then again, what's your list aim : winning a tournament ? i don't know, i would prolly focus my list to counter powerhouse instead of counterinr everything. If you're playing casual game, then play something fun, as long as it's not total garbage and your opponent isn't a dick, it should work.

For me, the biggest issue is to deal with MC. Riptide and Wraithknight are pain in the a**. Why ? I'm unlucky, my opponents are lucky. I don't know how to deal with them except for using gravs from allies... or having enough luck to roll for the shred of target psychic power.

Conscripts: I'd argue second best value unit in the book after wyverns (when combined with a priest or two for fearless + hymns). Walk 40 or so up the table and assault anything you can hurt or FRFSRF BS2 lasguns. For their points they are stronger than almost other infantry out there!

I'd probably field these as standard troops if I didn't need a platoon to unlock them...

I like Yarrikk. Had him win me games with his 3+ comeback. Don't forget, he can issue orders. So, attach him to a platoon or better conscripts and he's good to go. When this unit gets wittled down, just jump to another unit.

A lot of things work. Here are a few highlights:

Things that work best:
- Wiverns. Absolute best.
- Artillery formation. Ignore cover/tl basilisks or manticore. Don't forget to get master of ordnance and a bosspole for the comsquad as well. I've had games when this cheapo master of ordnance did more damage than 2 basylisks and a manticore combined.
- Psycana + VSG. Get them out of harm's way and enjoy 2-3 units of daemons every turn.

Things that are good:
- Conscripts. If you run platoons and can spare $ and time on a bunch of 3 ppm dudes, go for it. they need a priest and/or comissar. They'd be in the "work best" category if not for the $ and time investment they require. Oh, also, a platoon. But if you run platoons anywayz...
- Eradicators. Best leman russ out of the whole line if you ask me. Relatively cheap, has a nice gun that synergises well with hb sponsons and a hull hb. Always has targets. Way more durable than a wivern. Usually deals less damage point per point but is more versatile as it can still hurt av10-11 better and even put a wound or two on a mc/fmc/something invisible.

HQ choices: You really can beat taking the Company Command Squad, no matter what gear you take for it, the main reason to take it is for the Senior Officer special rule. Giving out 2 orders a turn is indispencible.
The Lord Commissar is good if you need a little more fighting power in your infantry blob of choice.

Troop choices: Infantry Platoons are great if you have the models for it. Nothing like manuvering a Platoon of 50 models as a combined squad and firing 150 lasgun shots at short range. Based on a law of averages, a 5 man terminators squad will have to make 50 (2+) armor saves, good luck termies!
Veteran Squads are a good choice when given a ride with a Chimera or a Valkyrie. You can outfit them for a specific role and send them forth to secure forward objectives.

Elites choices: I have yet to purchase any of them so far. I find that IG Elites to be underwhelming to say the least.

Fast Attack choices: Vendettas are the best AA and AT choice the AM have in their list. You can not go wrong with taking your extra Heavy Weapons Team bits LasCannons, and fit them right on the wing peg holes. They more than pay for their points.
Armored Sentinels are okay when used properly for the weapons system it has been given. If you use a Heavy Flamer armed Sentinel on a Squad of Terminators, the other player should laugh at when you fail to cause any casualties and continue to laugh when he wrecks your AS in his turn in his assault phase. Using your AS weapon on the right target is essential to using this unit correctly.

Heavy Supprt choices: Leman Russ Exterminator tanks are worth their weight in platinum when opposing Space .Marine armies. Especially so, when given 2 side sponsor Plasma Cannons. I have tabled many a Space Marine army with a full Squadron of 3 Executioners.
The Basilisk is a good support Artillery piece to have on the field. Its near unlimited range, Strength 9, AP3, will wreck most any infantry you will come across. The large blast and Ordnance template is great for laying down Pinning fire on squads and can be fired indirectly as an added bonus. Just make sure you keep a Squad around it to prevent it from being assaulted.
Lastly, the DeathStrike Missle carrier is a High Risk, High Reward, type of vehicle. On a centered hit it can destroy half of the opposing army in one shot. On the flip side, if you are firing it into your own forces, you can kiss them good bye as well. We all know how scatter dice can be fickle at time. It also has a warm up period before the missile can be launched, so they can be susceptible to an early game assault if left unprotected.

This concludes my report of the 91st Cadian Guards. Long live the Glorious Sentinels!

Rough Riders: horribly useless units that are just as squishy as guardsmen and hit just a touch harder. There is no "learn how to us them correctly" to them, which makes them even worse of a unit. When doing everything right, they are still terrible. They are also an auto include in every army for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SYKOJAK wrote:

Troop choices: Infantry Platoons are great if you have the models for it. Nothing like manuvering a Platoon of 50 models as a combined squad and firing 150 lasgun shots at short range. Based on a law of averages, a 5 man terminators squad will have to make 50 (2+) armor saves, good luck termies!

Based on averages that's 25 wounds, not 50. Still a good amount, but not enough to take out the unit unfortunately.

Things that have proven a liabiilty for me against Muhreenz:

-Leman Russ Battle Spam
-Imperial Guardsmen Foot Tide
-Mechvets with special weapons
-Mechvets without special weapons
-Chimerae
-One Vendetta is never enough
-MT units

Things that proved somewhat useful:

-The one time I brought a Helhammer, and misread the blast size of it's main gun to be MUCH bigger.
-The one time I didn't miss with a battlecannon I scored a hit on some marines.
-Not using my IG

 Ignatius wrote:
Rough Riders: horribly useless units that are just as squishy as guardsmen and hit just a touch harder. There is no "learn how to us them correctly" to them, which makes them even worse of a unit. When doing everything right, they are still terrible. They are also an auto include in every army for me.

I've had good results with a min squad of rough riders with a meltabomb sarge. They put out a decent amount of ini5 s5 ap3 on the charge that is really good nowadays as you're gona face lots of bikers. Yep, they're squishy but very fast and act great as a counter-charge hidden somewhere out of los or moved on a flank.

The Good:




The Not So Good:

Are variant IG lists acceptable here? Because the Renegade and Heretics list can make for some compelling counts-as and perfectly WYSIWYG army list for your guard armies with some stronger elements. Downside is that the list is a little one dimensional, relying on massed artillery and large foot blobs.

Still, can't complain about massed rapier platforms and earthshaker or thudd gun batteries.

 koooaei wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Rough Riders: horribly useless units that are just as squishy as guardsmen and hit just a touch harder. There is no "learn how to us them correctly" to them, which makes them even worse of a unit. When doing everything right, they are still terrible. They are also an auto include in every army for me.

I've had good results with a min squad of rough riders with a meltabomb sarge. They put out a decent amount of ini5 s5 ap3 on the charge that is really good nowadays as you're gona face lots of bikers. Yep, they're squishy but very fast and act great as a counter-charge hidden somewhere out of los or moved on a flank.

Just one unit? I guess I can see how that would be a good use of 60 points, but it's also only 5 T3 wounds with a 5+ save. Which is not going to fair well against the twin linked bolters bikes have- even in over watch.

Wyverns are yet to disappoint me. I've had the most success running three in a single battery; limits potential targets but often wipes out a whole unit in one round of shooting. It's not unexpected for Wyverns to make back their points and then some in a single turn.

I run a mech list which come with very mixed reviews. I'm in it for the fluff and the love of tanks. Pask in a Punisher with an Exterminator buddy is my go-to HQ and Warlord, and the sheer amount of shots that are put out per turn are extremely effective. In addition to the HQ, I usually field two standard LRBT for some AP3 pie plates.

I've had a lot of success running allied MT, rather than as elites within the AM/IG army. My reason for doing so is the unique orders that MT commanders get, one of which gives the target unit preferred enemy. I've had great success deep striking two five man suicide melta squads and a command squad with four plasmas (orders to avoid 'gets hot').

Those are the three effective units/choices in my army so far.

 Ignatius wrote:
Rough Riders: horribly useless units that are just as squishy as guardsmen and hit just a touch harder. There is no "learn how to us them correctly" to them, which makes them even worse of a unit. When doing everything right, they are still terrible. They are also an auto include in every army for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SYKOJAK wrote:

Troop choices: Infantry Platoons are great if you have the models for it. Nothing like manuvering a Platoon of 50 models as a combined squad and firing 150 lasgun shots at short range. Based on a law of averages, a 5 man terminators squad will have to make 50 (2+) armor saves, good luck termies!

Based on averages that's 25 wounds, not 50. Still a good amount, but not enough to take out the unit unfortunately.

Looks like someone is paying attention! Good catch!

 chrispy1991 wrote:
The Good:

-Fast attack: Despite what people say, I have never had a bad experience with Hellhounds. Give them a multi-melta on the hull, and watch them become a thorn in your opponent's side if they don't deal with them quickly. Keep in mind that str 6 torrent flamer it has will ID tau, guard, and eldar infantry, and wounds most TEQ's and MEQ's on a 2+. It is EXTREMELY easy to get it into range as it is a fast vehicle, and so it can scoot around the board at cruising speed every turn and fire both its guns at full BS. 12 inch torrent plus 12 inch movement plus the flamer template itself is quite a good threat range. Additionally, unlike chimeras, these have AV 12 on front AND side, so moving them up won't expose weaker armor.

I agree with you here but if I deploy my Hellhound, it's always dead turn one or severely crippled because people know what it's capable of.

ExFideFortis wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
The Good:

-Fast attack: Despite what people say, I have never had a bad experience with Hellhounds. Give them a multi-melta on the hull, and watch them become a thorn in your opponent's side if they don't deal with them quickly. Keep in mind that str 6 torrent flamer it has will ID tau, guard, and eldar infantry, and wounds most TEQ's and MEQ's on a 2+. It is EXTREMELY easy to get it into range as it is a fast vehicle, and so it can scoot around the board at cruising speed every turn and fire both its guns at full BS. 12 inch torrent plus 12 inch movement plus the flamer template itself is quite a good threat range. Additionally, unlike chimeras, these have AV 12 on front AND side, so moving them up won't expose weaker armor.

I agree with you here but if I deploy my Hellhound, it's always dead turn one or severely crippled because people know what it's capable of.

That's why I bring three individual units

The way(s) I use my guard:

1) gunline foot: lots of platoons 50 men deep(like 3 or 4 platoons); each gets an alternating set of 2 or 3 lascannons and heavy bolters(2 of 1, 3 of the other in 1 platoon, switch the set for the next) these are blobed by weapon with grenade launchers in the heavy bolter squads and plasma in the lascannon. The las cannons will receive bring it down and the heavy bolters fire on my target or FRF,SRF. My HQs are 1 or 2 CCSs with auto cannon, medic, and plasma(grenade launcher if I need to shave off 10 points). My PCSs will have 3 flamers, a medic, and a p-fist on the officer, they will be my forward elements along with a single vet squad with sgt harker 2 flamers and a heavy flamer along with the demolitions and forward sentries doctrine. Commissars go in most blobs and the commissar and every sgt also gets a power sword(yes, sword; although a maul is also more effective than you would think with S5 vs the axes S4, I do not just fight TEQs so AP 2 does not matter as much, and most things with T6+ also has the armour save to ruin my day. A S4 axe is never going to get the AP 2 vehecle damage table bonus so why bother) The rest of my points go into Ratlings and Sanctioned Psykers along with the slotless Primaris(ML2). If I still have points left it goes to an ADL, or a network of ADL and Bastions(all with quad guns)

2) Mechanized: 5-6 units of Vets half in Chimeras(plasma, melta, and Flamer, doubled up all specials the same in each unit; drop a flamer unit for 5 units of vets)with a Lord Commissar and Primaris Psyker. One Plasma Vets gets the Grenadiers Doctrine and maybe demolitions, they go in a Valkyrie. The Flamer unit is led by Harker as described above. Fast attack is then 2 units of 2 armoured sentinels with plasma cannons. Heavy support is a single squadron of 2 hydras and then 2 squadrons of Russes(2 executioners and either 2 punishers, vanquishers, or 1 of each. I forgo Elites, but if I have the points I add in a Stormsword.

3) Artillery Company: for this we break out the Cadian Battlegroup: 1 tank commander as Command element(Executioner and MBT), 1 emperor's shield Company as troops, and then 2 emperors wrath(1 with 2-4 bassilisks split into 2 squadrons and a Manticore, the other is 2 individual hydras and a deathstrike). Every CCS has a MotO.

4) Armoured Company: again Battlegroup; CCS as Command in a Chimera, Emperor's fist as Core(variants vary), Infantry Platoon in Chimeras as auxiliaries(cheap and simple), and then a super heavy and/or an Emperor's Talon.

 Ignatius wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Rough Riders: horribly useless units that are just as squishy as guardsmen and hit just a touch harder. There is no "learn how to us them correctly" to them, which makes them even worse of a unit. When doing everything right, they are still terrible. They are also an auto include in every army for me.

I've had good results with a min squad of rough riders with a meltabomb sarge. They put out a decent amount of ini5 s5 ap3 on the charge that is really good nowadays as you're gona face lots of bikers. Yep, they're squishy but very fast and act great as a counter-charge hidden somewhere out of los or moved on a flank.

Just one unit? I guess I can see how that would be a good use of 60 points, but it's also only 5 T3 wounds with a 5+ save. Which is not going to fair well against the twin linked bolters bikes have- even in over watch.

Maybe they worked for me cause they were a supporting element for the blob. A lot of opponents try to hide in melee with platoons. So, they get stuck in than hope to either outkill the blob or hit and run at the end of your turn, which is the worst case scenario for us. And here comes the cavalry with their lances to reliably kill off 3-5 bikes on the charge and emidiately pay off. Than they can just run around and score or deny charges. They can even do damage to vehicles with a melta bomb.

Not saying they're amazing. Just not useless. They can be decent in certain scenarios. And close to useless in others. But it's not a big loss for how relatively cheap they are. Definitely like them more than ogryns.

 koooaei wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Rough Riders: horribly useless units that are just as squishy as guardsmen and hit just a touch harder. There is no "learn how to us them correctly" to them, which makes them even worse of a unit. When doing everything right, they are still terrible. They are also an auto include in every army for me.

I've had good results with a min squad of rough riders with a meltabomb sarge. They put out a decent amount of ini5 s5 ap3 on the charge that is really good nowadays as you're gona face lots of bikers. Yep, they're squishy but very fast and act great as a counter-charge hidden somewhere out of los or moved on a flank.

Just one unit? I guess I can see how that would be a good use of 60 points, but it's also only 5 T3 wounds with a 5+ save. Which is not going to fair well against the twin linked bolters bikes have- even in over watch.

Maybe they worked for me cause they were a supporting element for the blob. A lot of opponents try to hide in melee with platoons. So, they get stuck in than hope to either outkill the blob or hit and run at the end of your turn, which is the worst case scenario for us. And here comes the cavalry with their lances to reliably kill off 3-5 bikes on the charge and emidiately pay off. Than they can just run around and score or deny charges. They can even do damage to vehicles with a melta bomb.

Not saying they're amazing. Just not useless. They can be decent in certain scenarios. And close to useless in others. But it's not a big loss for how relatively cheap they are. Definitely like them more than ogryns.

Gotcha. The whole useless thing was more hyperbole on my part, as clearly I don't think they are completely useless as I bring a unit every game just because I find them aesthetically pleasing and fun to try and get value out of.

But other than the supporting role you've mentioned the only way I can see them being effective at all is giving them flamers. That way they can use their speed to get to spots not attainable by the infantry to use the weapons.

I've had good success with a minimum sized squad of rough riders with double flamers. They are fast and able to position themselves well to make good work of that template. Then you can charge the survivors with a couple hunting lances and probably make their points back, Of course if they get shot at they are going to die but that's most things in the imperial guard book.

I have also had huge success with Bullgryns. I run mine as a 5 man squad with attached priest. Sgt has maul and invuln and the rest keep the slab shields. I usually sit them in front of my lines and use them like an aegis that can counter charge. If your opponent isn't loaded out with Str 10 or Str D they are incredibly resilient with T5 and 3+Sv that can be rerollable in combat. The other good use of them is as mobile cover for a battle tank. Camo+slab shield+bullgryns are intervening models is a pretty impressive save on an AV 14 chassis thundering towards your lines with a demolisher cannon.

My army is a strong advocate for the turret mounted heavy flamer on the Chimera, unfortunately after having nearly all of them initially equipped with well glued multi-lasers.

The number of times the mobility + 360 degre targetting for the template has saved my crispy bacon is phenomenal.

My first auto-include is the naked Demolitions Doctrine veterans (in a chimera), who with bs s8 ap1 have made double or more of their points back on nearly every second occasion they appear. Even the 1 melta bomb per turn dealy is actually not that big a deal, since strictly speaking you're only paying for 2 of them anyway.

Plasma Eradicators are the mainstay of my battle line; at 150 pts they provide a solid foundation for any army to build around, and are cheap enough to be semi-expendable.

The Executioner is a 'sometimes food' in that i've found the best way to run them is in pairs with heavy bolters. It's important to remember that the plasma sponsons fire *separately* to the main gun, so you will almost always have killed the majority of their target squad before you can resolve the second volley. HBolters on the other hand allow mopping up, and keep the Exec under the 180 mark.

Finally, i'd like to remind folk that with Montka, we can now take 1+ tank commanders on their own in Battleforged armies. It took me entirely too long to realise this. Multiple Punishers with BS4 is a Big Deal, especially if paired with plasma eradicators who can split fire when necessary.

The Wyvern as been spoken for, and that right good so I need not elaborate.

Nowadays in nearly every game I augment the above with Forgeworld goodies. Here's why:

1. The Punisher vulture is the best flyer in the armory, and quite possibly the game, only contested by the DFTS augmented Vendetta . Statistically you're getting something close to 9 wounds against t5, which is utter murder for both Thunderwolf Cavalry and a threat to Centurions - quite apart from the effect it has on t4 and lower. On top of that the vector dancer component means it's constant threat to the whole table.

2. The Hades Drill is absolutely hilarious because it can not only provide deep strike assault to demolition veterans, but can deep strike in such a way that it will kill invisible units with s8 ap1 *large blast*.

3. The ABG Vanquisher with it's optional small blast Instant Death cannon was the joy of my existence until my first Imperial Knight.

4. The Trojan Support Vehicle with its "cool, I give tanks preferred enemy" ability is phenomenal, especially on the aforementioned Vanquisher. It's amusing to use on a Hellhammer too.

5. The ABG Manticore battery with s9 ap2 7" blast is much under rated. 3 such impacts will ruin the day of nearly anything, especially if you can score twin linked.

6. The Marauder Destroyer, while far from the optimum choice, is a safe way to tie up a huge ammount of points in something that simply won't die. Even w/o DFTS the ability to simply wipe all of a battle company's free transports in one turn cannot be understated. The 8 hit apoc barrage is just a nice extra

Since we're talking tactics, I'll point out I like my HWTs, but as individual squads the tax is huge. 105 points for a unit that will die to 3 S6 wounds (or vice versa)? I have to stick my lascannon said way back in my lines in ample cover and out of sight to come close to surviving long enough to be relevant. Plus to make these units truly useful it would take a further tax of a commissar for reliable orders or a babysitting prescience primaris.

That said, how the tarnation do you get any use out of Heavy weapon profiles when you have to move your blobs and/or individual squads around objective games (most games)? Snap firing? Ew. Please mention how you make HWTs work, besides simply saying "I don't."

Combined Infantry Squads parked in your backline is how I do mine. Two squads with two Autocannons merged together. Hardly a game winning unit since its a measly 4 BS3 S7 shots most turns, but can be somewhat hard to shift against shooting attacks if they're sitting in 4+ cover (especially if you Go to Ground, and if you feel like it you just order them to get back up next turn). Plus if something T4 or less gets close you can FRFSRF the gak out of it with lasguns.

I second GoonBandito. The defensive platoon is generally worth its points (particularly with an attached priest for fearless + potentially lethal war hymns if the enemy gets too close). It makes for a VERY secure objective. The autocannons are just an additional set of guns to ping transports at long range while the unit holds this objective.

This is even more effective if you have CCS hanging around nearby. 2 autocannons in a blob can do a little more than expected when combined with your choice of tank hunter or ignores cover. It makes their mediocre damage output a little more reliable.

I'd also say that autocannons are a good buy for a PCS hanging around backfield. Having a couple of these units can be useful in finishing off units (e.g. a rhino with 1HP left or a lone special weapon trooper who has survived his squad being wiped out). They're not powerful units, but they make the PCS less of a tax when unlocking a platoon.

I would never take heavy weapons in their own units though, just far too fragile and expensive. In theory they should be a unit that would work great in a bunker to increase their survivability, but with their awful damage output they just aren't worth the investment :(

I take heavy weapons teams but I sit them in a void-shielded Fortress of Redemption.

Anyone shooting at them has to take down the AV12 shield, then they get a 4+ cover save. They generally survive for quite a while - the enemy chooses to shoot at my Veterans instead of dealing with the protected HWT's.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Since we're talking tactics, I'll point out I like my HWTs, but as individual squads the tax is huge. 105 points for a unit that will die to 3 S6 wounds (or vice versa)? I have to stick my lascannon said way back in my lines in ample cover and out of sight to come close to surviving long enough to be relevant. Plus to make these units truly useful it would take a further tax of a commissar for reliable orders or a babysitting prescience primaris.

That said, how the tarnation do you get any use out of Heavy weapon profiles when you have to move your blobs and/or individual squads around objective games (most games)? Snap firing? Ew. Please mention how you make HWTs work, besides simply saying "I don't."

Sadly there isnt a whole lot of reliable ways to make HWTs work these days, they really do need a total rework or a big price reduction. I have found some interesting success with 2-4 infantry squads combined on top of a Skyshield with lascannons and a CCS + Primaris/Inquisitor for divination. But once again, thats a big investment for a few measly ignore cover twinlinked lascannons.

Now no one here has mentioned Artillery carriages yet! One of the gems of forgeworld (and an insanely easy conversion if you have plasticard and pretty much any artillery model ever made) they are crazy resilient at T7, can come as either earthsaker or medusa (i prefer the medusa, most things wont be out of 36") and you can give them orders. Nothing beats an ignore cover str 10 ap 2 blast. I usually run 2 with max crew members and will either include a high LD character like a lord commissar, inquisitor, or primaris, or go for broke and add in Yarrick for a truly unkillable unit parked behind an Aegis and bubble wrapped behind some combined platoons. And all for a low low price! If you want to be particularly mean to your drop podding friends sprinkle in Coteaz and watch the tears flow when they land (as long as the scatter goes well)

I think I've just about come full circle on Platoons. I liked them for their staying power, then hated them for their lack of mobility and firepower and the tremendous investment required to make them killy, and now that I'm starting to use the Emperor's Fist more I'm starting to embrace them again for immobile, hard to shift tank defenders and objective holders. As you've all alluded to above, you just need to embrace them for what they are; a completely defensive, hard to shift unit.

I don't even think I'm going to give them any upgrades (I would give them auto cannons if I had the points, but I don't) because I might as well make full use of FRFSRF on targets that present themselves and leave all the actual damage dealing to the BS4 Russes and Hellhammer. I use to give them all manner of ICs and upgrades to make them a melee threat (which drives their cost way up) but now I'll just use them as a tarpit and when they are wiped out, unload on the victors with 2 BS4 Punishers. When they are kept cheap, I actually think they are pretty good now.

ExFideFortis wrote:
I think I've just about come full circle on Platoons. I liked them for their staying power, then hated them for their lack of mobility and firepower and the tremendous investment required to make them killy, and now that I'm starting to use the Emperor's Fist more I'm starting to embrace them again for immobile, hard to shift tank defenders and objective holders. As you've all alluded to above, you just need to embrace them for what they are; a completely defensive, hard to shift unit.

I don't even think I'm going to give them any upgrades (I would give them auto cannons if I had the points, but I don't) because I might as well make full use of FRFSRF on targets that present themselves and leave all the actual damage dealing to the BS4 Russes and Hellhammer. I use to give them all manner of ICs and upgrades to make them a melee threat (which drives their cost way up) but now I'll just use them as a tarpit and when they are wiped out, unload on the victors with 2 BS4 Punishers. When they are kept cheap, I actually think they are pretty good now.

I agree, I have had some success with the new emperors shield formation running the 15 10 man MSU units with melta bombs on the sgt. they are there to clog the board, tarpit units, and be generally annoying and draw fire. i try to keep them as cheap as possible, and the melta bombs are there to allow some light tank hunting or at least a perceived threat for enemy armor and MCs (i used to use Krak grenades until the FAQ)

Following this.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think the Emperor's Fist is one of the best formations we have, though that may not be saying much. The Emperor's Wrath is a close competitor but you are paying a lot of tax just to gain ignores cover on fragile Basilisks and a Manticore, and you can do that with no tax already via artillery carriages. BS4 Vanquishers, Punishers and Exterminators are great, significantly better than they are at BS3, and even the Eradicator and Executioner benefit (the ordnance versions of course are sadly still irrelevant). That much AV 14, especially with the Enginseer's battlefield doctrines, holds up very well vs all shooting but str D and we have quite a few ways to tarpit and speedbumb melee threats. Drop pod meltas are mitigated easily enough. Not to mention you really aren't paying much tax as the Enginseer can be quite useful.

I think it's really the only semi viable way to field Russes right now, because a Punisher, for example, loaded out with HBs at BS3 is mediocre, but at BS4 it's probably quite worth the points.

It will also enable you to run the Cadian Battlegroup, so you can throw in some CBG buffed auxiliary platoons for bubblewrap quite easily at 1850 points.

ExFideFortis wrote:
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think the Emperor's Fist is one of the best formations we have, though that may not be saying much. The Emperor's Wrath is a close competitor but you are paying a lot of tax just to gain ignores cover on fragile Basilisks and a Manticore, and you can do that with no tax already via artillery carriages. BS4 Vanquishers, Punishers and Exterminators are great, significantly better than they are at BS3, and even the Eradicator and Executioner benefit (the ordnance versions of course are sadly still irrelevant). That much AV 14, especially with the Enginseer's battlefield doctrines, holds up very well vs all shooting but str D and we have quite a few ways to tarpit and speedbumb melee threats. Drop pod meltas are mitigated easily enough. Not to mention you really aren't paying much tax as the Enginseer can be quite useful.

I think it's really the only semi viable way to field Russes right now, because a Punisher, for example, loaded out with HBs at BS3 is mediocre, but at BS4 it's probably quite worth the points.

It will also enable you to run the Cadian Battlegroup, so you can throw in some CBG buffed auxiliary platoons for bubblewrap quite easily at 1850 points.

I disagree, I think the bonus you get from the Steel Host formation is better, and the Hydra is a far more useful tax unit than the Enginseer. The bonuses to tank shock and penetrating hit protection hardly ever come into play because I don't really think the people who wrote the rules for this, or people who think those rules are actually good, actually have played lists with alot of Leman Russ Tanks. IG used to be my main army all through 6th and 7th until Adeptus Mechanicus came out, and even then I still played them, always heavy on Leman Russes and as soon the as the Steel Host came out I ran it. You used to be able to use Steel Host to get re-rolls on Gets Hot for Executioners but GW recently took that away from us with the FAQs.

My point is, the extra rules besides +1 BS don't actually do anything for the IG player. Leman Russes die to 3 things- Grav, Close Combat, and D weapons. Whether the glancing hits are coming from grav, close combat, haywire, or a high ROF weapon it doesn't matter. The LR still suffers from 3 hull point syndrome, people don't kill them with penetrating hits (unless you're play a friendly game where your opponent actually took Lascannons, melta, or lances). So what do you have, the same units except you're changing out a Hydra for single dude that can easily be killed off, that really doesn't actually do anything unless you invest points in him, and even then your opponent is usually killing any tanks they shoot at in one single turn.

Emperors Fist is really not that great. It's either worse than or equivalent to the Steel Host depending on if you value 1 point greater ballistic still (better for Exterminators, Punishers, and Vanquishers) or re-roll 1's to wound (better for battle tanks, Demolishers, Eradicators, etc.). I think I would rather have the Hydra over the techpriest.