Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I know some excellent ideas regarding wych cult rules have been posted on here before, but I thought I'd toss my own ideas out there. Below is the wych cult detachment. I took a page from the Pale Court's book and made it a sort of "tool box" for giving personality to your force. This detachment does strictly make wyches better, but I think that's offset by how lackluster most wych units are right now and by the fact that, outside of reavers, you have almost zero anti-vehicle potential in this detachment. Which means you'll probably have to bring along some allies to crack open armor and deal with mechanized forces. I'd kind of like to do a more extensive redesign of Power From Pain, but I thought that Blood Sport would be an easier, simpler-to-explain way of giving it a nudge in the right direction without dramatically redesigning the official PFP rule.

A couple key concepts I was going for:
* Make HQs more customizeable
* Make blood brides better by giving them buffs over normal wyches.
* Make wych weapons appealing again.

What do you think? Is it awesome? Is it boring? Does the potential for Reaver spam make it completely unbalanced? Is it simply too complicated?

DARK ELDAR DETACHMENTS

WYCH CULT DETACHMENT
Mandatory: 1-2 Succubi, 2-6 Wyches
Optional: 0-3 Elites, 0-3 Fast Attack
Note: Lelith Hesperax may be taken in the place of a succubus in a wych cult detachment.
Requirements: All units taken as part of the wych cult detachment must be “cult units.” Cult units include succubi, blood brides, wyches, hellions, and reavers.

Special Rules:
Blood Sport: If a unit (friend or foe) has been slain in close combat since the end of the last dark eldar turn, treat the current turn as being 1 higher for purposes of the Power From Pain table. This affects all units in the dark eldar army, not just this detachment.

Crowd Pleasers: To better draw the attention of influential patrons, wych cults often cultivate their own violent gimmicks and specializations. Each wych cult detachment in your army may select two of the following special rules. Different wych cult detachments may select different special rules.

-Slow Bleed: The gladiators specialize in inflicting slow, lingering deaths that extract every last ounce of agony from their prey. They parry and doge with uncommon grace all while denying their victims the mercy of a swift death. Wych units in the detachment improve their dodge save by 1 (normally making it a 3+) if they opt to make one less attack with each model in the unit. Bloodbrides improve their dodge save by 1 but do not need to sacrifice attacks to do so.

-Performance Enhancers: The wych cult is known for its diverse and potent collection of battle potions. When rolling for your combat drugs, roll an additional d6. Reroll the second d6 until it provides a different result from the first d6. Units from a wych cult detachment with this special rule may opt to take the result from the second d6 rather than the first.

-Death Racers: The many reaver gangs that occupy the cult’s arenas are impossible to track up close. Instead, audiences follow their movements by the crimson mist that trails in their wake. A detachment with this special rule must include 3 units of reavers, increases its available Fast Attack slots by 3, and reduces the mandatory number of wych units to 0. Additionally, Succubi in this detachment may be mounted on a reaver jetbike for 20 points and may take a blaster or heat lance and a grav talon or cluster caltrops at the same points costs as reavers.

-Beast Mistress: Some succubi make a point of forging close ties to the wandering beast master tribes despite their male-dominated nature. Beast master bands that allow themselves to be tied to the patronage of influential wych cults are inevitably required to extend some amount of authority and arcane knowledge to their new sponsors, though such sacrifices are always made grudgingly. Beasts in a wych cult detachment with this special rule gain the Power From Pain rule as they gain a taste for the escalating violence of the arenas. Additionally, beastmaster units within 12” of a succubus from a detachment with this rule may use the Succubus’s leadership in place of their own. Succubi from a detachment with this special rule may take a beastmaster skyboard for 10 points.

-Arena Darling: No one knows how to throw the crowd into a frenzy like the pre-eminent mistresses of the arena. When a unit containing a succubus or siren destroys an enemy unit, count the turn number as being 1 higher than normal until the end of the next dark eldar turn for purposes of Power From Pain. This affects all units in the dark eldar army, not just this detachment.

-Daredevils: The arenas of this wych cult are full of cruel traps designed to punish the slow and unwary. Only the swiftest and most sure-footed of warriors can survive long on such a stage. Units from a detachment with this rule gain Move Through Cover and may add 3” their run and charge distances.

-Arena Arsenal: The arena prides itself on its warriors’ ability to perform awe-inspiring stunts with their unusual weapons. Wych weapons in a detachment with this rule provide the following additional benefits:
* Shardnet & Impaler: A model with a shardnet and impaler reduces the attacks of enemy models within 2” by 1 (to a minimum of 1). Multiple shardnets & impalers stack. This ability has no effect on monstrous creatures or walkers. Bloodbrides, syrens, and succubi reduce the number of attacks by 2 instead.
* Hydra Gauntlets: A model with a hydra gauntlet gains d3 attacks when fighting with hydra gauntlets. Bloodbrides, syrens, and succubi gain d6 attacks instead.
* Razorflails: Armor saves made against a wound inflicted by a razorflail take a -1 penalty. Bloodbrides, syrens, and succubi treat razor flails they wield as having the Rending rule.

The detachment itself is great, my only quibble would be Succubi should be 1-3 (fluff-wise a cult is ruled by 3 Succubi, so it'd be impossible to run a full cult in a single detachment) and perhaps add a single heavy support slot. Remember that Razorwing Bombers and at a stretch Void Ravens usually are piloted by Reaver Jetbikers who were successful enough to afford the upgrade in speed. Therefore they could be included as cult units, giving the detachment a little more variety.

You could also include a Crowd Pleasers centered around them, perhaps allowing them to jink at -2 Bs instead of snap shotting.

smaller quibbles are that you should clarify that dedicated transports are cult units when taken transports for cults units. The Reaver Succubi should gain skilled rider. I'd like to see a Hellion based Crowd Pleaser, like allowing them to jink, because your detachment does nothing to fix them.

Quite a while ago I tried to do something very similar to you here which I had some good feedback and was able to fully finish it. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/655196.page
And I would probably argue that you could split this into a decurion type force to clean things up. You obviously have specific units in mind with each of the crowd pleasers, it might clean things if you simply attached the crowd pleaser trait to an auxiliary detachment you have in mind instead of what you're currently doing. But that's just a preference taste for me, having so many sandbox options makes balancing every possible combination hard.

I like the 1-3 Succubi idea. I'd also condense the detachment benefits to 2-3. No other detachment has that make benefits

Also don't forget that Beastmasters are part of the Wych cult and should be an available unit.

I'd also condense the detachment benefits to 2-3. No other detachment has that make benefits

Indeed. The options are nice, but a few, better benefits would probably be a nicer choice.

An appropriate term for "Crowd Pleasers" would be "Knife That Stays The Blade" - it's the formal term for it amongst the Dark Eldar.

Blood Sport seems a bit off, though. As written, it benefits if any unit slays any other unit. One end or the other (the unit triggering it or a radius of effect) should be tied to the detachment, surely? Otherwise three kabalites stabbing three guardsmen trigger a rule in a detachment neither of them are part of.


I would build several separate detachments - generic wych squads and bloodbrides in one, then 'bolt-ons' of other units with appropriate rules. I wholeheartedly support making wych weapons and bloodbrides better, though.

I'd recommend the following concepts:

1) Improving the dodge save - specifically letting it work against overwatch, as well as maybe a reroll under certain circumstances.

2) One of the nice tricks dark elder used to have was a 'disarming' rule with wytch weapons that halved an enemy's weaponskill and removed their additional close combat weapons. Possibly resurrect?

3) I'd agree with having 3 succubi. Either in the detachment or as a command element bolted onto a wych/bloodbride core.

4) Also note that a lot of Razorwing pilots are ex reaver pilots, and some still dogfight in the arena.

I really appreciate all the great feedback, guys! I sincerely thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The detachment itself is great, my only quibble would be Succubi should be 1-3 (fluff-wise a cult is ruled by 3 Succubi, so it'd be impossible to run a full cult in a single detachment) and perhaps add a single heavy support slot. Remember that Razorwing Bombers and at a stretch Void Ravens usually are piloted by Reaver Jetbikers who were successful enough to afford the upgrade in speed. Therefore they could be included as cult units, giving the detachment a little more variety.

You could also include a Crowd Pleasers centered around them, perhaps allowing them to jink at -2 Bs instead of snap shotting.

smaller quibbles are that you should clarify that dedicated transports are cult units when taken transports for cults units. The Reaver Succubi should gain skilled rider. I'd like to see a Hellion based Crowd Pleaser, like allowing them to jink, because your detachment does nothing to fix them.

Quite a while ago I tried to do something very similar to you here which I had some good feedback and was able to fully finish it. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/655196.page
And I would probably argue that you could split this into a decurion type force to clean things up. You obviously have specific units in mind with each of the crowd pleasers, it might clean things if you simply attached the crowd pleaser trait to an auxiliary detachment you have in mind instead of what you're currently doing. But that's just a preference taste for me, having so many sandbox options makes balancing every possible combination hard.

I recall you're excellent Dark Olympiad! Part of my goal here was to make something a bit simpler than a decurion, but I see how many of the optional special rules are sort of lack luster next to others. Things like Arena Darling seem unlikely to be taken if it means giving up Performance Enhancers, for instance. I've been convinced that a decurion is the way to go. Even though I personally find them minorly annoying most of the time. Expect a more substantial update soon.

Good catches regarding various fluff points and on pointing out that flyers are often Reaver pilots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I like the 1-3 Succubi idea. I'd also condense the detachment benefits to 2-3. No other detachment has that make benefits

Also don't forget that Beastmasters are part of the Wych cult and should be an available unit.

To clarify, the Wych Cult detachment above doesn't give you all those benefits; it gives you Blood Sport and your pick of two more special rules. It's very similar to a Pale Court which gives you automatic 6" run moves and your pick of two other special rules. You're right about the 3 succubae thing though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

locarno24 wrote:

I'd also condense the detachment benefits to 2-3. No other detachment has that make benefits

Indeed. The options are nice, but a few, better benefits would probably be a nicer choice.

An appropriate term for "Crowd Pleasers" would be "Knife That Stays The Blade" - it's the formal term for it amongst the Dark Eldar.

Blood Sport seems a bit off, though. As written, it benefits if any unit slays any other unit. One end or the other (the unit triggering it or a radius of effect) should be tied to the detachment, surely? Otherwise three kabalites stabbing three guardsmen trigger a rule in a detachment neither of them are part of.


I would build several separate detachments - generic wych squads and bloodbrides in one, then 'bolt-ons' of other units with appropriate rules. I wholeheartedly support making wych weapons and bloodbrides better, though.

I'd recommend the following concepts:

1) Improving the dodge save - specifically letting it work against overwatch, as well as maybe a reroll under certain circumstances.

2) One of the nice tricks dark elder used to have was a 'disarming' rule with wytch weapons that halved an enemy's weaponskill and removed their additional close combat weapons. Possibly resurrect?

3) I'd agree with having 3 succubi. Either in the detachment or as a command element bolted onto a wych/bloodbride core.

4) Also note that a lot of Razorwing pilots are ex reaver pilots, and some still dogfight in the arena.

"Knife That Stays the Blade" sounds awesome, but is also something of a mouthful. For now, I'll probably stick with "crowd pleasers" if only because it's easier to say when explaining rules to my opponent.

Good catch on Blood Sport. The intention is that it's only triggered by units from the Wych Cult detachment but that it benefits all dark eldar. In the same way that crowds gather to drink in the suffering of an arena fight, nearby warriors might drink in the pain of a wych's victim on the battlefield. The proposed revision that I"ll be posting shortly should clarify this.


I think you're right about beefing up wyches and 'brides. To address your specific suggestions...

1. That's sort of what Slow Bleed is meant to accomplish. It makes wyches more survivable in melee and allows them to tarpit enemies well. I see people pairing this with shardnets when they want to keep enemies pinned down. While I frequently see people wishlisting dodge saves against overwatch and have no real objection to this addition, I personally don't find overwatch to be the real problem with wyches. Either overwatch was already going to devastate them, or else it will be insignificant enough not to make much difference. I'd be happy to roll this in somewhere, but it seems inelegant to tie it to one of my already overly-complicated rules. Suggestions?

2. I too played with the original dark eldar codex! (And the weird pseudo update that added the rule you're referring to.) That rule was great and really helped wyches in a tarpit role. I was seeking to recapture something similar with my version of the shardnet rules. Do you feel this does a poor job of serving a similar role? I like the idea of having variety within wych weapons, and the shardnet is definitely the go-to tarpit option.

3. Consider it done. Please check in soon for an update.

4. So noted. I may steal some content from AlexIsAwesome for their benefit, or I may simply make them an auxiliary option for the decurion.