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Hey, I've been doing a thought experiment for how I'd add a little more balance to competitive 40k by adjusting points values for units, formations and equipment. Most units and rules shouldn't be too unbalanced if they are appropriately costed. I think the easiest place to start adding a little balance would be the top 5% or so of units/formations/equipment that are considered undercosted, and to add a little points-cost to them. The aim is not to make it so they are outright weak, but to reduce their utility to something in the region of most other higher-end units. I'd still expect them to be played (and be strong) but playing them would cost a little more than before.

So with this in theory in mind, I've compiled a completely arbitrary list of points adjustments. There are a few things I'm going to state in advance:

1: I know this is completely arbitrary, and just my own personal thoughts on how I'd make the game a little more balanced for competitively-minded players
2: I know there would still be units/formations that are stronger than others, but the aim is to make a few more army builds viable, not bring vast balance to all of 40k (which I'm sure isn't possible in a game so complex)
3: I've not included forgeworld units in this, as I am not familiar with most units.
4: I compiled the list largely based on a couple of polls I ran a while back. I could do an 'top 10 most undercosted equipment' poll but I can't be bothered. So apologies if my equipment ideas are a bit lacking! Here are the links if interested: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/680011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/698254.page
5: Something similar could be done with the units considered weakest in 40k and I might have a go at them sometime in the future if I get bored.

So here are the suggestions. All points are IN ADDITION TO normal points cost Costs per unit, formation and equipment would be paid separately.

General:
Any model armed with a grav weapon costs +5pts, aside from grav pistols (which cost no extra) and centurion grav cannons which cost +15pts on top of normal.
Every psychic mastery level in an army costs +5pts


Space Marines:
Any codex space marines character on a bike with any of (shield eternal, gorgons chain or artificer armour) +30pts
Each space marine biker (not scout bikers or attack bikes) +3pts
Tigurius +10pts
Gladius strike force costs an additional 20pts per free transport used
Skyhammer anihilation force +50pts
Librarius conclave +25pts per librarian included
Centurion grav cannons option +15pts (as mentioned above)

Tau:
Each riptide +20pts
Each ghostkeel +15pts
Each broadside with HYMP +10pts
Each stormsurge +30pts
Optimised stealth cadre +60pts
Riptide wing +20pts per riptide in it (jn addition to riptide bonus cost)
Piranha firestream wing +10pts per piranha

Eldar
Wraithknight +100pts
Windriders +5pts per model, shuriken cannons +5pts scatter lasers cost +10pts (both in addition to normal upgrade cost)
Warp spiders +5pts
Farseer +10pts
Wraithguard +3pts per model
D-cannon vaul's wrath batteries +10pts per model
Aspect host +20pts
Battlehost +30pts

Space Wolves
Thunderwolves +10pts per model
Wulfen +5pts per model
Iron priests on thunderwolves +10pts
Wyrdstorm brotherhood +20pts

Necrons
Wraiths +5pts per model
Tomb blades +5pts per model
Decurion +100pts
Canoptek harvest +30pts

Chaos and Daemons
Chaos cyclopia cabal +30pts
Fateweaver +20pts
Belakor +20pts
Grimoire of true names (if used in an army containing fateweaver) +30pts
Impossible robes +20pts
Paradox +15pts

Dark angels
Librarian conclave +50pts
Darkshroud +10pts
Black knights +5pts per model
Ravenwing bikers +3pts per model

Other
Admech war convocation +200pts
Tyranid hive-tyrant twin linked devourers +25pts
Astra militarum wyvern +10pts
Astra militarum priest +10pts
Grey knight dreadknight +10pts
Imperial/Renegade knights +15pts
Inquisition servo skull +10pts

So there you have it. Thughts? Say if you attended a tournament where these changes were added to the standard comp, would it make for a better gaming experience? And might it help to open up different playstyles with less frequently used units?

 DoomMouse wrote:

Tyranid hive-tyrant twin linked devourers +25pts
Astra militarum wyvern +10pts
Astra militarum priest +10pts

Yey, kick a gakky codex while it's down! Srsly though, the AM Priest is hardly amazing.

Leman Russ variants -25pts

As a horde guard player I respectfully disagree. The rest of the codex is pretty shocking, but 35pts would still be a bargain for zealot and war hymns in a large blob. He also has the (slightly unreliable) power to make battle brother allies get a 2+ re-rollable save in close combat, which is crazy for 25pts. That's why I always take three priests in my lists

Let me take war convocation for 150 points of free upgrades and pay 200 points to get that ...

I would strongly disagree with this, there are ways to counter most armies aside from fething D weapons for nothing, seriously, 45 points for a D weapon on eldar cmon!

Problem is not the other players, its that your playing a horde army of guard. Guard horde is weak. Just the other day my RW DW army just steam rolled guard. Problem is not the other codexes is that the guard one is weak. They rely on vehicles so much, which are very pooy right night.

I didn't see -125 pts for a land raider on there.

the_scotsman wrote:
Let me take war convocation for 150 points of free upgrades and pay 200 points to get that ...

Is it not closer to approx 700pts of free stuff provided you take everything it'll let you?

The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

A storm surge cannot purchase FNP. It also dies to tank shock if it's nailed down to the ground. It is also only toughness 6. It's a squishier knight that shoots more.

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

A storm surge cannot purchase FNP. It also dies to tank shock if it's nailed down to the ground.

You're right. It can't purchase it. IT GETS IT FOR FREE.

Don't let tanks close to your Stormsurge. Shouldn't be too hard. You are the godly tau.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

A storm surge cannot purchase FNP. It also dies to tank shock if it's nailed down to the ground.

You're right. It can't purchase it. IT GETS IT FOR FREE.

Don't let tanks close to your Stormsurge. Shouldn't be too hard. You are the godly tau.

hes right you know

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

A storm surge cannot purchase FNP. It also dies to tank shock if it's nailed down to the ground.

You're right. It can't purchase it. IT GETS IT FOR FREE.

Don't let tanks close to your Stormsurge. Shouldn't be too hard. You are the godly tau.

Ah, so it does. I forgot GCs had FNP naturally, thanks for correcting me. I've been playing this wrong for awhile then. Also I thought dark eldar could tank shock on turn one?

Well everyone's disagreeing with each other over small points. Would it be fair to say it could make for an interesting tourney at least if used?

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

A storm surge cannot purchase FNP. It also dies to tank shock if it's nailed down to the ground.

You're right. It can't purchase it. IT GETS IT FOR FREE.

Don't let tanks close to your Stormsurge. Shouldn't be too hard. You are the godly tau.

Ah, so it does. I forgot GCs had FNP naturally, thanks for correcting me. I've been playing this wrong for awhile then. Also I thought dark eldar could tank shock on turn one?

I may be talking out my butt here, but can't the stormsurge still stand a decent chance via death or glory?

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

A storm surge cannot purchase FNP. It also dies to tank shock if it's nailed down to the ground.

You're right. It can't purchase it. IT GETS IT FOR FREE.

Don't let tanks close to your Stormsurge. Shouldn't be too hard. You are the godly tau.

Ah, so it does. I forgot GCs had FNP naturally, thanks for correcting me. I've been playing this wrong for awhile then. Also I thought dark eldar could tank shock on turn one?

Don't anchor vs Dark Eldar. Just kill them with normal firepower.

 Zaku212 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

A storm surge cannot purchase FNP. It also dies to tank shock if it's nailed down to the ground.

You're right. It can't purchase it. IT GETS IT FOR FREE.

Don't let tanks close to your Stormsurge. Shouldn't be too hard. You are the godly tau.

Ah, so it does. I forgot GCs had FNP naturally, thanks for correcting me. I've been playing this wrong for awhile then. Also I thought dark eldar could tank shock on turn one?

I may be talking out my butt here, but can't the stormsurge still stand a decent chance via death or glory?

I believe the errata cleared up the raw by saying "Ye, it just dies" poof. Considering this was just clearing up stuff that seemed odd in the raw, I think it's safe to say it just dies. I could be wrong though.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Zaku212 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

A storm surge cannot purchase FNP. It also dies to tank shock if it's nailed down to the ground.

You're right. It can't purchase it. IT GETS IT FOR FREE.

Don't let tanks close to your Stormsurge. Shouldn't be too hard. You are the godly tau.

Ah, so it does. I forgot GCs had FNP naturally, thanks for correcting me. I've been playing this wrong for awhile then. Also I thought dark eldar could tank shock on turn one?

I may be talking out my butt here, but can't the stormsurge still stand a decent chance via death or glory?

I believe the errata cleared up the raw by saying "Ye, it just dies" poof. Considering this was just clearing up stuff that seemed odd in the raw, I think it's safe to say it just dies. I could be wrong though.

It goes poof cos it can't move out of the way, you can opt to not move to do a death or glory attack. (in fairness now the Stormy has a str of 6 so idk if that will even help unless GMC get something to augment that.)

 Zaku212 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Zaku212 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

Stormsurge is way undercosted with a 4++ invuln and 5++ FNP. Stormsurge should be 600 pts.

A storm surge cannot purchase FNP. It also dies to tank shock if it's nailed down to the ground.

You're right. It can't purchase it. IT GETS IT FOR FREE.

Don't let tanks close to your Stormsurge. Shouldn't be too hard. You are the godly tau.

Ah, so it does. I forgot GCs had FNP naturally, thanks for correcting me. I've been playing this wrong for awhile then. Also I thought dark eldar could tank shock on turn one?

I may be talking out my butt here, but can't the stormsurge still stand a decent chance via death or glory?

I believe the errata cleared up the raw by saying "Ye, it just dies" poof. Considering this was just clearing up stuff that seemed odd in the raw, I think it's safe to say it just dies. I could be wrong though.

It goes poof cos it can't move out of the way, you can opt to not move to do a death or glory attack. (in fairness now the Stormy has a str of 6 so idk if that will even help unless GMC get something to augment that.)

I just checked the faq and it says if he's anchored he auto dies. Idk if gmc gives him some sorta magic help from getting nuked by a commissar in a tank wanting to bang his sword at his knees, but it seems the storm surge just poofs out of existence because of a devide by 0 error or something.

Also op I'd lower the price of vespid and kroot, as well as kroot shapers hounds and krootox.

*hopes for discussion about balance of 40k*

*gets long RAW debate about stormsurge anchoring and tank shop*

*goes to sleep for the night*

Yeah lowering points for some weak units might be an idea. I may have a go at that at some point, but I suspect it might be a bigger job!

 DoomMouse wrote:
*hopes for discussion about balance of 40k*

*gets long RAW debate about stormsurge anchoring and tank shop*

*goes to sleep for the night*

What did you expect ? lol

changing points is not going to balance a thing, they need to overhaul the rules for the problem units IE tau stuff being labeled as creatures and not walkers for one.

@Backspacehacker

I don't think it'd be a problem if they were appropriately costed. Might feel a bit unfluffy with them resembling vehicles, but just because they are MCs doesnt make them inherently inbalanced. It's a points cost thing. The tyranid tyrannofex (like the riptide) is a shooty MC with a 2+ save, but it's overcosted and therefore not used often.

Considering the purpose of having "points" is to create a more balanced game where you can have unequally powerful units but still have two armies being roughly equal, yes, we should be using points to balance the game. It's the entire purpose of points.

I would not participate in a tourney where the organizer just arbitrarily raised the price of some units.

Pricing units based on how one feels they should be priced is how GW does it. That's how we got the mess that is 40K's balance in the first place.

If you determined some methodology to how units should be priced and then applied it to EVERY unit in the game, then maybe. However, I would expect the price of some units to go down along with others going up.

There's gobs of things that need points adjustments. However, points are increasingly a secondary concern. Army construction is so loose as to make restrictions largely pointless, and formation bonuses so powerful, that points become increasingly irrelevant, and small changes aren't going to make much difference. Tossing a measly 50pt tax onto an insanely powerful formation like the Skyhammer isn't going to do that much when they're bringing potentially several several multiples of that tax worth of freebies into play, likewise 10pts onto something like Tigurius just isn't going to make any meaningful difference that won't be made up by cutting something trivial somewhere else.

One could probably go through every unit in the game and make some adjustments. However, without some reign in on freebies and stat-line/special rule inflation, minor points adjustments aren't going to majorly impact the big problems.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I would not participate in a tourney where the organizer just arbitrarily raised the price of some units.

Pricing units based on how one feels they should be priced is how GW does it. That's how we got the mess that is 40K's balance in the first place.

If you determined some methodology to how units should be priced and then applied it to EVERY unit in the game, then maybe. However, I would expect the price of some units to go down along with others going up.

This.

Really the main problem units in the game are just the MC, and FMC because their supposed counterpart, vehicles, are very weak this edition. If vehicles were on par with them, we would not see this problem.

IMO There are quite a few ways to very easily balance the problem armies.

option 1) some MC need to be made into walkers or vehicles.

Option 2) Give vehicles a saving throw before their armor is hit.

Even tuning their points does not change the fact that MC right now are really strong and give one turbo fire power is stupid. Altering points is just going to make people either trim their armys to take them still, or out right not take them period which is not a real solution.

Another thing i really wish they would do, and even I myself would need to adjust for this, make formations cost points to take, thats how it worked when they first dropped. For example if i wanted to run 3 WW in the formation for the bonus, i think it was like another 150 points or something ontop of the model cost for those special rules.

 Jaxler wrote:
The pirhana wing isn't that great really. People seem to forget that drones are just drones. Also a storm surge is a 420 point model with a 3+ save, if anything it's pretty balenced. Broadsides are only toughness 8. Drop pod marines with melta tend to bake them.

I hope that is a typo about the Broadsides because otherwise you need to re-read the Tau codex

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I would not participate in a tourney where the organizer just arbitrarily raised the price of some units.

Pricing units based on how one feels they should be priced is how GW does it. That's how we got the mess that is 40K's balance in the first place.

If you determined some methodology to how units should be priced and then applied it to EVERY unit in the game, then maybe. However, I would expect the price of some units to go down along with others going up.

Why not? We encourage tournament organizers to do it with the actual rules themselves.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Well everyone's disagreeing with each other over small points. Would it be fair to say it could make for an interesting tourney at least if used?

Did you expect anything else?
For the most part what I can see is each person arguing why their own faction shouldn't recive any point increase.

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't see -125 pts for a land raider on there.

Thus making it better than a Predator in every way. Cheaper, more accurate gun platform, transport capacity, +1 Front AV, +2 Side AV (I think Preds have 12 there), +4 Rear AV. Oh, and +1 HP.

Yes.. 125 points for a Land Raider. Totes fair.