Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,

I think the AM heavy weapon teams should have more weapon options. An option for multi-lasers, plasma cannons and multi-meltas in infantry squads would be awesome. Maybe even grav cannons.

I would especially like to see plasma cannons as the theme for my guard army is plasma spam.

What do you think? Would you like to see this or do think the AM already have enough heavy weapon options?

Ed

Looking at how Heavy Weapon Teams are modeled any of those weapons would look strange. Plus only the Plasma Cannon would have any practicality. Either of the last weapons have no threat range with Imperial Guard.

Sure more options is nice but if the options are terrible you won't take them.

Making the squad and the weapons cheaper would be a big start.
Giving Mortars ROF 2 would be even better.

I'd like to see Multi-Lasers, yes. Plasma cannons might be tough to pull off... but Multi-Meltas? There's not enough range to be practical as a sit'n'shoot weapon.

With so many issues with Guard in the current edition, this would be really low on my list of things to change.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Making the squad and the weapons cheaper would be a big start.
Giving Mortars ROF 2 would be even better.

I think the mortar's ROF is fine, it just needs an increase in strength and AP (decrease in AP )

 edbradders wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Making the squad and the weapons cheaper would be a big start.
Giving Mortars ROF 2 would be even better.

I think the mortar's ROF is fine, it just needs an increase in strength and AP (decrease in AP )

I would rather have 2-3 shots per tube, so that you can really simulate a massed mortar barrage.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 edbradders wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Making the squad and the weapons cheaper would be a big start.
Giving Mortars ROF 2 would be even better.

I think the mortar's ROF is fine, it just needs an increase in strength and AP (decrease in AP )

I would rather have 2-3 shots per tube, so that you can really simulate a massed mortar barrage.

Maybe a new order which both company commanders and platoon commanders can issue called "Fire for Effect" which can be issued to mortar squads which lets them fire D3+1 shots per mortar for that turn?

In my experience, mortars don't have a very high ROF in real life. They can go 1-12 shots per minute which can be upped to 20 shots per minute, with a well trained crew, for short periods.

Ed

I can see no reason why they could not include a multilaser or a Plasma Cannon on the same sprue. Replace the mold's sand bags with those 2 weapons.

More multilasers would help the IG a lot.

SYKOJAK wrote:
I can see no reason why they could not include a multilaser or a Plasma Cannon on the same sprue. Replace the mold's sand bags with those 2 weapons.

Multilasers, fluffwise, require vehicle or gun carriage mounts for the cooling systems and power generation. They aren't man portable like Lascannons can be. Plasma Cannons are considered in a similar vein; plus it's hard enough to get Guardsmen to volunteer to carry a rifle variant that could explode. How many weapon teams do you think would volunteer to be part of a bigger boom?
Additionally, Plasma Cannons are in the book as part of the Techpriest Enginseer's Servitor retinue.

If you want to make an argument for multilasers, then make the argument for Guard to get Rapier weapon carriages as part of the codex with some archaic/weird weapon options.

A Rapier weapon carriage with a set of twin-linked multilasers, a quad mortar, or some other weirdness would be a great little addition and add a bit of a mobile heavy weapon option to the Guard.

 Kanluwen wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
I can see no reason why they could not include a multilaser or a Plasma Cannon on the same sprue. Replace the mold's sand bags with those 2 weapons.

Multilasers, fluffwise, require vehicle or gun carriage mounts for the cooling systems and power generation. They aren't man portable like Lascannons can be. Plasma Cannons are considered in a similar vein; plus it's hard enough to get Guardsmen to volunteer to carry a rifle variant that could explode. How many weapon teams do you think would volunteer to be part of a bigger boom?
Additionally, Plasma Cannons are in the book as part of the Techpriest Enginseer's Servitor retinue.

If you want to make an argument for multilasers, then make the argument for Guard to get Rapier weapon carriages as part of the codex with some archaic/weird weapon options.

A Rapier weapon carriage with a set of twin-linked multilasers, a quad mortar, or some other weirdness would be a great little addition and add a bit of a mobile heavy weapon option to the Guard.

The fluff on individual weapons is meaningless in the tabletop game. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to have multilasers.

No where in the fluff does it say Riptides are immune to standard imperial heavy weapons, but they are.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
I can see no reason why they could not include a multilaser or a Plasma Cannon on the same sprue. Replace the mold's sand bags with those 2 weapons.

Multilasers, fluffwise, require vehicle or gun carriage mounts for the cooling systems and power generation. They aren't man portable like Lascannons can be. Plasma Cannons are considered in a similar vein; plus it's hard enough to get Guardsmen to volunteer to carry a rifle variant that could explode. How many weapon teams do you think would volunteer to be part of a bigger boom?
Additionally, Plasma Cannons are in the book as part of the Techpriest Enginseer's Servitor retinue.

If you want to make an argument for multilasers, then make the argument for Guard to get Rapier weapon carriages as part of the codex with some archaic/weird weapon options.

A Rapier weapon carriage with a set of twin-linked multilasers, a quad mortar, or some other weirdness would be a great little addition and add a bit of a mobile heavy weapon option to the Guard.

The fluff on individual weapons is meaningless in the tabletop game. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to have multilasers.

Sure there is. It's exactly the reason I posted. That's why Multilasers have traditionally been on vehicles rather than infantry.

Additionally, I would much rather see Rapiers make an appearance in the Guard list than adding more crew served weapons. There's already a rather nice selection of heavy weapons(Mortar, Autocannon, Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter, and Lascannon) that just get routinely ignored to start with. Why add another option that will get probably get ignored in favor of Melta/Plasmavets?

Nowhere in the fluff does it say Riptides are immune to standard imperial heavy weapons, but they are.

Because of the fact that standard Imperial heavy weapons haven't been seriously updated for longer than some 40k players have been alive.

And MCs are ridiculous at this point.

Tradition just means nothing to me. IG need efficacy, and the multilaser is 3/4 of a scatterlaser. Of course, it's not nearly as good on a heavy weapon team as a jetbike, so maybe it wouldn't help at all.

Nowhere in the fluff does it state that MCs can soak 6X the firepower of tank, but they can. Fluff arguments are 100% hollow in crunch to me.

Martel732 wrote:
Tradition just means nothing to me. IG need efficacy, and the multilaser is 3/4 of a scatterlaser. Of course, it's not nearly as good on a heavy weapon team as a jetbike, so maybe it wouldn't help at all.

If the yardstick we're going to use is the Eldar jetbikes being given all scatter lasers, then this is an absolutely pointless discussion to be having.

Realistically what we need for Heavy Weapon Teams to become more viable is a complete and utter overhaul of Imperial heavy weapons. End of story.

Nowhere in the fluff does it state that MCs can soak 6X the firepower of tank, but they can.

Because of the fact that MCs have _____________ and tanks do not have have _____________ .

*The answer is actual saves as standard rules and not having been held to the 25% concealment rule that vehicles have been.

Fluff arguments are 100% hollow in crunch to me.

You want a crunch argument?

Look at the Deathwatch book and the first time players have actually been excited for a Heavy Bolter option in how many editions?
It took the thing being shifted to Assault 3 with the same stats and being given a Heavy Flamer strapped to the gun for 20 points rather than 10 points to get that effect.

It doesn't matter how many new weapon options you give IG heavy weapon teams, they'll always be lackluster given that they're T3 and subject to being doubled out.
They'll always be lackluster given that they're paying the same points cost for their heavy weapon options as a Marine, yet being BS3 instead of BS4.
They'll always be lackluster given that if taken as part of an Infantry Squad, the squad moving around beyond coherency means that they have to move and are snap shooting.
They'll always be lackluster because Imperial heavy weapons were designed for a game that hasn't really been the same as the timeframe of those stats being cemented how long ago?

Face facts here, Martel. Adding Multilasers won't make Guard weapon teams better. Making the weapon options for them(and in turn, all Imperial and to an extent Chaos armies) better will make the Guard weapon teams measurably better. There will still be work to be done, but getting the weapons to the point where people are actively taking them and having to make choices would be a minor victory in and of itself.

Well, it will make them a little better, because the multilaser is better than any of their current choices. But an overhaul of the weapons would make them a LOT better.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, it will make them a little better, because the multilaser is better than any of their current choices.

Is it really though?

Multilasers are S6 AP6 and Heavy 3 with a 36" range.
I can take autocannons that are S7 AP4 with 48" range and Heavy 2.

The reason Scatter Lasers are so great is that the other options(Shuriken Cannons and Shuriken Catapults) are relatively lackluster and the big downside to them(Heavy) is negated by the Jetbike itself.

But an overhaul of the weapons would make them a LOT better.

It would make basically every Imperial(and Chaos Marines as well) army better, if we're going to be brutally honest.

Adding in Rapier platforms would be a big-no, massive-boon. Forget Heavy Weapon Teams. Much as we would all love to deploy Infantry AT guns and mortar batteries they are laughably ineffective. Rapiers are by far the better choice.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Adding in Rapier platforms would be a big-no, massive-boon. Forget Heavy Weapon Teams. Much as we would all love to deploy Infantry AT guns and mortar batteries they are laughably ineffective. Rapiers are by far the better choice.

Conceptually speaking, there's room for both options in the game.

Rapier platforms could be used for the heavier stuff that is not man(or even dual man) portable--such as a Laser Destroyer Array, a Quad Mortar, or even something new and weird. Given that Rapiers are Artillery as well, it gives them a new and interesting spot to occupy within the IG book.

Heavy Weapon Teams could be removed from Squads(Veteran, Command, etc) and instead be something that is purchased with the squad, but operates separately. Give them the current weapon options, once revised with new statlines and point costs, the ability for Mortars to have multiple fire modes(and for Vox-Caster equipped squads to reduce the scatter), and the squad becomes immune to Instant Death and voila. You are on your way to fixing things...but there'd still be a hell of a lot more work to do.


Guard, as an army, are the only army which realistically should have included rules for fortifications within their codex. It's silly that Tau got unique fortifications and fortifications within their books before Guard did.

And yes, while one can argue "Guard don't need unique fortifications, they can just take normal fortifications!"...the same can be said for Tau.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, it will make them a little better, because the multilaser is better than any of their current choices.

Is it really though?

Multilasers are S6 AP6 and Heavy 3 with a 36" range.
I can take autocannons that are S7 AP4 with 48" range and Heavy 2.

The reason Scatter Lasers are so great is that the other options(Shuriken Cannons and Shuriken Catapults) are relatively lackluster and the big downside to them(Heavy) is negated by the Jetbike itself.

But an overhaul of the weapons would make them a LOT better.

It would make basically every Imperial(and Chaos Marines as well) army better, if we're going to be brutally honest.

Multilasers DO kill 50% more meqs.

I'd like to see centurion style weapons teams. Exo suits designed to allow a single man to provide mobile fire support to squads. They replace the teams in squads and carry lighter, assault versions of heavy weapons withshorter range. Heavy weaponsquads remain unchanged and carry the proper full sized weapons.

 HANZERtank wrote:
I'd like to see centurion style weapons teams. Exo suits designed to allow a single man to provide mobile fire support to squads. They replace the teams in squads and carry lighter, assault versions of heavy weapons withshorter range. Heavy weaponsquads remain unchanged and carry the proper full sized weapons.

That's almost what Sentinels are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about making them Artillery-Lite? They are T5 4+?