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In a nutshell they do many things right and had done much more right.
They do many things wrong but it is easy to see potential for easy improvement.
It can be maddening to watch.
40k is "broken" according to me and my friends.
So we build and paint our models and wait.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Really? <-- and I mean that honestly. I'm actually a bit surprised that you're waiting for a company who provided you with a rules set that you don't enjoy to suddenly provide you with one that you will enjoy.

They did in 5th!
Do you honestly think people just sit around and say "oh well, I guess I will not play then..."?
We do get some use out of it but we usually have to "craft" scenarios to ensure the balance.
We always have a standing agreement of switching armies if you do not think it "fair" enough.
We did switch a few times and it can be comedy gold remembering the other guy's army rules.
Pickup games however are pointless to us.

Especially when they've been on the same design path since 1998. Are you expecting an Age of the Emperor game to come out soon?

Hope springs eternal?
I had been playing 40k since second edition so I am kinda invested in the game, garbage rules now or not.
Do not ask how many models I have, nevermind metal ones.
My first and main army(ies?) is a freaking ton of CSM that used to have daemons which I have quite a few old metal ones kicking around.
You understand some bitterness there somewhere right?

I would recommend finding other rules sets in the mean time and getting some games in. Fubar and the One Page rules sets would be a place to start, but I like SuperSystem by Four-Color Studios. It's a comic book super heroes miniature game with a very, very complete build system. You can make it work with 40k stuff very easily. It's not free though.
Where I would start:
https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/

Thanks for the recommendations but I have participated in many a lively alternative rules discussion.
The alternative rule sets are not near as easy as modifying what we have.
Usually it just boils down to a house-rule list we keep updating as we go.
Hence why it is so irritating GW does not change a few fundamental rules to the game and it could play so much better.

<edit>It boils down that for us to go out and play / visit with new folk we play a different game (X-wing, Battletech, Malifaux) or get to know the new person and hammer out an "armistice" before we meet again to play.

Just before those good old "3.5" days I remember complaining hugely that any army I chose NEVER had guess weapons.

Black Templars I had were not allowed whirlwinds (Armageddon Codex) because they needed to "see their enemy die". CSM seeing the Defiler come along was a happy time.

I have a fair bit of Iron Warriors and I never got around to fielding a Basilisk... my impression was it was barely worth the points.

The above discussions do highlight the fact that many codexes that came before had many exciting things in them.

GW has a TON of lore/fluff.
Why do we play games based on these kinds of things or say movies?
We want to play/simulate what we saw/read as a game.

Any time game rules prevent a player from creating events like in the literature is viewed as a failure of the game.

This above statement is one of the main sources of GW "hate".
They seem to forget what makes the game exciting.

Hmmmm... picked up some Deathwatch to stick my toe back into 40k
I really know how to pick armies that suck.
They definitely are not "complete" in themselves.
BUT I LIKE Deathwatch from the fun they were in the past.
I knew this was going to be a bit of an uphill battle with the "Sternguard" stealing their thunder with the special ammo.

One lesson learned that is really killing GW is "Do not make rules for models you do not have.".
These mixed groups with bikes and jump packs and then a strange mix of leaders who cannot pick said bikes or jump packs because they have not made the model yet.

So there are a few holes in selection for that army, strange choices where the "best equipped" marines in the universe have less selection than vanilla SMs.
Plus the special rules for DW is worse than the Imperial Fists for shooting misses.

Plus their flyer is happily advertised as a troop transport that can fly in and deliver troops "like a drop pod"... ummm no.
I defy anyone to use it for that purpose.
Fly in from reserve, hover, deploy troops at the earliest 3rd turn (2nd if starting on landing pad).

Again, you write a bunch of fluff, people get all excited that the new army comes out and the silly gits cannot write any rules to reflect the fluff they describe!

Let me pause for a moment:


It is a similar feeling I got with Skitarii where certain elements seem incomplete or "broken" (not in a good OP way).
The models are awesome but you scratch your head as you try to get decent use of them on the table.

 Cryonicleech wrote:
It's changed a lot over the years, and thus it's the best possible target for vitriol.

You never hear people complain more than when they are used to a certain level of service and then you take it away.
It USED TO be pretty clear many of the more public employees were fans of the game as well as the provider of services.
The view the past couple years is that upper management could barely restrain themselves of making fun of their customers.

I am happy with many good choices they have been making recently, the various game / starter packages is a good step at addressing need and making great "pick-up" games to get people into the 40k universe without buying a full army.

BUT my continuing gripe is they release new models and try to fit the rules to the models made and no further.
So if they rush an army out the door you get these "incomplete" armies that are not fleshed out: they NEED allies in order to function.
I despair to ever see complete armies with inherent strengths and weaknesses ever again: we can mix and match to suit if you do not have a favorite army that is less than optimal.

But like the advent of the first "Apocalypse" rules, they are bent and determined for you to be able to play "anything you want!!!" because it is cool BUT you will never ever have a "proper" competitive game.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
[The cynic in me says that the rules are that way because GW don't make that exact model and are so paranoid about 3rd parties that they won't make rules for things that cannot be built specifically from a single kit, and the optimist in me says that they just didn't realise they wrote it that way (like the way Chaos Terminator weapon options are worded in the current Codex). And the worst part is, neither is a good option. When you're optimist option is that they just don't know how to write rules, what hope is there?
So even if they fixed up their core rules, the books for the armies are still atrocious.
And then you remember that the Eldar Codex exists, and you begin to believe that they design everything in a vacuum.

I agree with much of what you said.
My first / main army was Chaos in general (CSM, Daemons all gods) then Inquisition in general (Grey Knights, Inq., now Death Watch), Black Templar, AM/IG (originally to be conscripted into Inq.) and Skitarii. I sure know how to pick a whole lot of suck, rules wise.

I am absolutely certain GW is making rules ONLY for whatever they managed to make for models.
With the lawsuit they pretty much learned that you got the rights if you got the model so if your competitor gets it out first, they are in trouble.
What they choose in the Deathwatch codex can ONLY be that since it is so targeted (HQ that does not get a bike, but gets a jump-pack, etc.).
Correction, not ONLY, the Deathwatch Darkstar is a fine example of a specifically made "troop transport" and it completely sucks in doing that.

They should just wave the white flag and mark-up the models and do like Warmahordes and put the rules on cards and occasionally sell expensive update card packs.
Broken codex's with supplements as they release new models is irritating.

Another alternative is make White Dwarf more expensive and release full sheet (heavy stock) rules for any and all models as they are released. It would also address my issue of not being able to keep up on what everyone's armies do since there is so much material and expensive. A bit of 6th edition and mostly 7th edition is the first 40k where I did not know what all the armies do, I really am dependent on my opponent knowing their stuff and being honest. Heck, they can make a nice expensive BL compilation that gets updated people could subscribe to electronically.

Again, there are many other more "humane" ways to monetize and still get rules out that do not need to be written by committee.
This is why GW gets to be "demonized", they are so close to being able to do things right and somehow wander off the path.

I do agree that there is some truth when you see the memes:

Herzlos wrote:
I always took that playing for fun argument as meaning they pop open some beers and throw some dice without really bothering with the rules.
To be fair, that's largely how we had to play 40K; making half of the game up on the fly just to keep it flowing, and not paying too much attention to balance or fairness.
The added bonus is that we pay such little attention to the rules that there's no reason to keep up to date on them

Madness!
My friends like games for competition so getting too loose with them gets us all upset.
As GW rules get more strange we keep having to write down house rules to keep things moving.
The discussions/arguments/debates sometimes reached epic proportions so getting it written down was to protect us from repeating the process again.
We are a bit stuck: we love the 40 models and stories but the rules.... not so much.
So we make it work with a few tweaks.
I just wish we get to tweak less and play more.

 Azreal13 wrote:
b) there's been 30 years to nail it all down.

They appear to subscribe to "change for change sake".
We still see certain models are written out of the rules only to appear again many years later.
Good models become not as competitive then good again.
There is this rather cyclical turning things on their head to get the people who just got into the game a year or two ago to get something else.
If you have been in this for a decade or so you know that your model will be seen again eventually.
My 28mm original Obliterators I pull out on occasion to blow minds.
My original metal Deathwatch upgrade bits and models I have that were waiting for this new Codex for instance.We are just facing an unprecedented "special rules bloat" of proportions not seen in 40k ever.
30 years to nail it down... unfortunately it has been "patches" applied not doing a lessons learned and re-write the rules to fix the problems and streamline things.
Plus with the Armageddon type rules for Allies, there is no freaking way you can balance armies as they stand now: too many combinations to deal with.
I keep looking at the Bolt Action rules and think that those rules are what 40k should be today.
Just the I-get-first-turn-I-win has had so many work arounds applied it is ridiculous (deep strike, night fighting, reserves, purchased/points cost terrain, shrouded/invis, target closest model and opponent ensures he is kitted as a tank, not allowing getting into melee first turn... etc.).

Yeah, I had been looking forward to Deathwatch.
Spending $500 kinda creeps up in a hurry even with extra space marine bits lying around (Note: GW site USA site prices at this time, Canadian in brackets).
I was looking for a well "rounded" army but it will still need to be Allied with my IG/AM, BT or more strangely GK.

So, for a barely functional army of 44 models (specifically the DW models), I had the pleasure of spending over $500 US funds.
Yeah, these prices are not for the faint at heart.
Am I happy?
Yes, I have models I want.
Is my wallet happy?
It may speak to me later when it stops smoking and is resuscitated with a few paychecks.
My more competitive player self is all upset and screaming at me until I figure out which army to be allies with and he may quiet down.
Promising to myself to paint up an Imperial Knight in Deathwatch colours is calming things down marvelously.
Can I arm him with special ammo? PLEASE?

In summary though starting a new army or in this case another army is seriously expensive and is a HUGE barrier to anyone with a casual interest: there is nothing casual about the cost. Buying a few of those mini-game boxes is a good way to get to play and eventually lead to some army to play.

GW really is haunted by their past practices as stark contrast to their present behavior.

They had their own forums where all things GW were there, organized with articles.
Now in this day and age of social networking, they still have an internet presence that is a shadow of what it once was.
They literally were ahead of the curve in engagement with their customer base that other industry would have killed for.
This is where they come across as "nothing is free", there were many awesome articles that are gone (maybe look in "time machine").

Back when Apocalypse was released, those formations were sold with an actual deal.
They literally were good enough I HAD to buy them because I knew I wanted that many anyway and it would be more expensive otherwise.
These "one-click" purchases are... strange, bordering on insulting... no deal (in some cases more expensive!) like somehow bundling them together is a huge service because clicking on all those models is such a chore... please.

We joked that White Dwarf was one big advertisement, but many years back it had actual customer/hobbyist letters, articles and armies in it that gave a feeling of being part of a culture and engaged. Visions and weekly WD was the first time in a decade I did not buy any WDs, it literally seemed to have nothing of note in them. Maybe I am overly critical, but I collected some 12 years (every single month) of WD until this change. Bought the first two months (just to be sure) deemed it a waste of money and moved on. I am happy to see it come back to something that gives a little more to the hobbyist: it does not have to be the same to me, change is ok.

Sponsored competitions forced us to improve our game and required the "fully" painted miniatures. I remember feeling grateful to get to play great games on great boards with each of us complimenting the other's hard work in making it all look awesome. I hope they get back to this. Pulling out on this still seems is like not taking ownership of the game. They are able to ignore the hard questions on how to make the game competitive (which it cannot easily be at this time).

Demonize GW? They are like a girlfriend that wont even give you a kiss but loves you taking them out for a dinner and a movie.

 auticus wrote:
Yep, the ceiling for a lot of people seems to hover at around $250 for an entire force I've observed. GW games you can't really do that.

Yeah, I "started collecting" Deathwatch.
Look at the bill for this (pricing as of 2016/09/06):

Codex: Deathwatch $50 ($60)
Deathwatch Watch Master $25 ($30)
Deathwatch Librarian in Terminator Armour $30 ($35)
Deathwatch Terminators $50 ($60) x2 = $100 ($120)
Deathwatch Kill Team $35 ($43)x3 = $105 ($129)
Kill Team Cassius $65 ($80)
Deathwatch Bikers $60 ($70)
Corvus Blackstar $65 ($80)

Total:
$500 (On the nose American... wow, I did not expect that... oh yeah: plus tax)
$604 Canadian
Nevermind a few drop pods, Rhino and landraider are getting pulled from my "warehouse" to fill in the rest.
Oh yeah, picked this up on sale: Start Collecting! Space Marines $85 (Yikes! $100 on Canada prices)

So it is a bit extreme in cost that is for sure, it at least shows that the "start collecting" bundles are a great help for the pocket book so I will not grumble too hard in that direction.
You buy two of those kits and it falls within the pricing you outlined for a reasonable force.