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I've had some pretty good success running a "Monster Mash" list with a LOC, Fateweaver, Be'lakor mixed with a Screamerstar. It usually runs in a double CAD, and is pretty resilient with lots of warp dice. I've found the weak point to be Be'lakor surprisingly, he just isn't that strong for his points cost in the list. So I'm thinking about trying to remove him for a Warpflame host to get more control of the Warp Storm table, as well as adding in the extra strength of shooting from flickering fire and the Exalted Flamers keeping my backfield scary to anything. What would you add/change? Also, any idea on converting normal flamers into Exalted Flamers? I don't really want to buy 5 burning chariots.

+++ Warpflame Host 1846/1850 Points +++
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Detachment 1: Daemonic Incursion
>> Command: Daemon Lord
Kairos Fateweaver (300 Points)
….WARLORD, Staff of Tomorrow, Mastery Level 4

>> Command: Daemon Lord
Lord of Change (330 Points)
….Impossible Robes, Mastery Level 3, 2x Greater Rewards, 1x Lesser Reward

>> Core: Warpflame Host
Herald of Tzeentch (170 Points)
….Disc of Tzeentch, Exalted Locus of Conjuration, Paradox, Psyker Level 3

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (99 Points)
….11x Pink Horrors
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (99 Points)
….11x Pink Horrors
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (99 Points)
….11x Pink Horrors
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (99 Points)
….11x Pink Horrors

Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch (50 Points)
Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch (50 Points)
Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch (50 Points)
Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch (50 Points)
Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch (50 Points)

>> Auxiliary: Daemon Flock
Chaos Furies (35 Points)
····5x Furies
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Detachment 2: Combined Arms Detachment
+ HQ +
Daemonic Heralds (150 Points)
Herald of Tzeentch
….Exalted Reward (Grimoire of True Names), Disc of Tzeentch, Psyker Level 3

+ Troops +
Nurglings (45 Points)
….3x Nurglings

Nurglings (45 Points)
….3x Nurglings

+ Fast Attack +
Screamers of Tzeentch (125 Points)
….5x Screamers
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I really like the look of it. My only suggestion would be to drop one unit of horrors in favor of another Exalted Flamer and 2 more Screamers. Other than that looks pretty good and I can't wait to try it out myself


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I just looked through my Battle Scribe files and found that I had nearly the same thing built with just a couple tweaks.

-Warpflame host has 7x Flamers, 1 unit of 11 Horrors, and 1 unit of 10

- CAD has 1 unit of Nurglings and 1 unit of 11 Horrors.

- Screamers bumped up to 7

Puts you down a couple units, but I'm of the mind that the Screamer Star needs 7 minimum. This configuration has better damage output in the form of 2 D3 more S10 shots or 2 more Torrents. Having a unit of Horrors in the CAD with an Exalted Flamer bunkered in it has the added bonus of making one objective absolutely undeniably yours until they kill the whole thing dead because of the interaction between Corruption and ObSec.

Overall I like the concept a lot. I just need to get a handle on how to best use the Flamers. Mostly when and how many to bunker with horrors and when to run them solo. Two units running around with 2++ rerollable and Fatey flying around with a 3++ rerolling 1s most of the time should be tough and when Fateys warlord trait and the +1/- 1 line up for warp surge you've got one hell of a durable army. I also need a better grasp of when to go all out for witch fires and when I need to save some for buffing/summons. I usually err in favor of summons and buffs lowering my damage output at times.

Cool ideas. A 5 screamer unit makes me a bit nervous, especially against first turn alpha strikes but I wanted 4 units of Horrors for an extra chance at Possession/CE/Sacrifice.

I do like your suggestions (especially about the obsec horrors + corruption flamer ). I will definitely give them a try if I find the 5 screamers to be too squishy. Thanks for the feedback, let me know how your version goes if you end up fielding it.

Don't get to play too often unfortunately but this will definitely be the next thing I'll try

Why is Fateweaver your WL? The Incursion already gives you all you need to stop the "bad" results, so you don't need his WL trait. If you make the LoC the WL and roll on the TZ traits, you could get a much better trait, possibly giving all Tz units within 9" a +1 invul. Combine with Cursed Earth and profit

 Galef wrote:
Why is Fateweaver your WL? The Incursion already gives you all you need to stop the "bad" results, so you don't need his WL trait. If you make the LoC the WL and roll on the TZ traits, you could get a much better trait, possibly giving all Tz units within 9" a +1 invul. Combine with Cursed Earth and profit

Hmmm I hadn't thought about this. You can easily pop him in the CAD too to make it rerollable too. I was thinking of keeping Fatey as Warlord, not because the Incursion benefit isn't good, but because the two combined seems pretty cool for hitting army wide +1 invuln more often seems pretty awesome.

On 2 D6 you need to hit 9, 10, or 11 in order to get the army-wide +1 invul. Even with FWs re-roll to Warpstorm, those odds are not that reliable.
However, it you place the LoC in the CAD, you get to re-roll his WL trait, rolling on Tz, of course, giving you much better odds of getting +1 invul every turn for him and any Tz unit near him. And even if you don't get that Trait, the only "bad" roll would be "6", which you can re-roll.

And even then, FW still has the once per turn re-roll that you could use for the Warpstorm. If either roll is a 5/6, but the other roll is a 1/2, you could re-roll the 1/2 and the chances of now rolling a total of 9, 10, or 11 is actually pretty decent.
Imagine having the +1 WL trait, then the Warpstorm +1 and someone just cast Curse Earth. Yeah everyone has a 3++ re-rollable, unless withing 9" of the LoC. Those units have a 2++ re-rollable. This can only happen if the WL has that trait

Good points. I believe the article I read talking about Using Fateweaver and the Incursion benefit together was specifically mentioning his reroll and not the WL trait. Don't know why I didn't put that together yet. Even more stoked on trying this list now.

I like fatey even with incursion cause it lets me keep his re roll for the grimoire if needed for extra safety, so his role for me goes from storm protection to grimoire safely.

Combining his WL trait with the incurison gives a really good chance of getting a "good" result (10, 11, or 12). I do agree the LoC being WL is enticing, and I have used it before. He's more durable in most cases, but the forced Ld from the robes can sometimes be an issue I've found.

I will probably try both to see what works best, if you dump the LoC in a CAD. I really always miss re-rolling that warp storm when i don't have it though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that the GW FAQ let's you roll all your powers on Change if you're part of the Incursion, I could make the LOC warlord and try to find points to get a foot Herald with the Endless Grimoire. From what I've been trying to cut to fit it, I lose too much since I'd have to remove 1 unit of Horrors, and make each unit only 10 man.

That means I'd be down 4 warp charges (losing 5, but gaining 1 for the new herald). Not sure if that's worth it, it brings the dice total down to 17 Warp Dice. Maybe there's another way to do it?

Did you mean grimoire of true names? The endless one seems pretty bad imo. But I just started daemons recently so I could he wrong

 Galef wrote:
On 2 D6 you need to hit 9, 10, or 11 in order to get the army-wide +1 invul. Even with FWs re-roll to Warpstorm, those odds are not that reliable.

Actually, the odds are not that bad.

Kairos warlord trait alone get you ~42% chance of getting the +1 invul with an incursion.
If you add the possibility to use the single D6 reroll per turn instead of reroll the whole warpstorm roll, then you get ~53% chances to get the +1 invul.

UncleanOne wrote:
Combining his WL trait with the incurison gives a really good chance of getting a "good" result (10, 11, or 12). I do agree the LoC being WL is enticing, and I have used it before. He's more durable in most cases, but the forced Ld from the robes can sometimes be an issue I've found.

I will probably try both to see what works best, if you dump the LoC in a CAD. I really always miss re-rolling that warp storm when i don't have it though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that the GW FAQ let's you roll all your powers on Change if you're part of the Incursion, I could make the LOC warlord and try to find points to get a foot Herald with the Endless Grimoire. From what I've been trying to cut to fit it, I lose too much since I'd have to remove 1 unit of Horrors, and make each unit only 10 man.

That means I'd be down 4 warp charges (losing 5, but gaining 1 for the new herald). Not sure if that's worth it, it brings the dice total down to 17 Warp Dice. Maybe there's another way to do it?

Cant really think of a more points efficient way to get Endless Grimoire in there, but if you do go that route I'd take the Paradox Herald as your warlord to most efficiently use all the WC3 powers on that table. (And buy lots of exalted chariots lol)

 RabbitMaster wrote:

 Galef wrote:
On 2 D6 you need to hit 9, 10, or 11 in order to get the army-wide +1 invul. Even with FWs re-roll to Warpstorm, those odds are not that reliable.

Actually, the odds are not that bad.

Kairos warlord trait alone get you ~42% chance of getting the +1 invul with an incursion.
If you add the possibility to use the single D6 reroll per turn instead of reroll the whole warpstorm roll, then you get ~53% chances to get the +1 invul.

I guess "not reliable" was not the right term. I meant that the divergence of possible results was much higher with a 2D6 roll, that with a since re-rollable D6 roll

You make FateWeaver your WL mainly to prevent the 2,3 & 4 result on the Warpstrom, or to get ballsy and try to risk rolling the 10. The Incusion bonus makes it impossible to ever be stuck with the 4 result (arguably the worst) and gives you the ability to re-roll Instability if you take a 2 or 3. So while FW really sets you over the top for Warpstorm protection, he isn't really needed for it.
I have been playing Daemons since their original codex dropped back in 5th. I have used Fate Weaver only once or twice and have never had a game in which the Warpstorm significantly affected the outcome against me.
If you are really that worried about the Warpstorm, don't play Daemons.

Using Fateweaver as WL in an Incursion is good, but using a LoC WL in a CAD alongside an Incursion can potentially turn your a Tzeentch army into god-mode.

-

I was just talking numbers there, that's it.

And I agree. Already having the incursion +1/-1 bonus and reroll instability (so it's almost impossible to get hurt by the warpstorm), I would definitively try to put somebody else than Fatey as the warlord.
First because those new Tzeentch traits are almost all awesome, but also because it gives the ennemy even less incentive to shoot at Fatey since he's not granting Slay the Warlord anymore.

Yeah, I hadn't even thought about FW giving up Slay the WL. Wouldn't the LoC with 2++ re-rollable be a better way of denying Slay the WL?

If you take the LoC as warlord then you have to decide if he's part of the Incursion or the CAD.

>> If he's part of the CAD then he can re-roll his WL trait (giving ~33% chance of getting the +1 invuln trait).

>> If he's part of the Incursion then he gets corruption (meh),re-roll instability checks (pretty good), and can roll all his powers on Change if you want.

So there's a good question, which is more useful? I'd have to vote for the Incursion. If that's the case, I think I'd rather go back to Fateweaver with the guaranteed good trait. I think both options are decent though, I just like to take as much randomness out of Daemons as possible. I almost always roll Soulblaze as my warlord trait anyways lol.

If you are running Fateweaver, you already have all the Change powers (most of which are not great). I always roll Malefic on my LoC, horrors, DPs, pretty much any psyker that isn't Belakor.

Same. LoC for President 2016.

UncleanOne wrote:
If he's part of the Incursion then he gets corruption (meh),re-roll instability checks (pretty good), and can roll all his powers on Change if you want.

You don't have to be part of the incursion to use the new psychic powers. They technically replace the table in the codex so anybody can use them.

So it's really only reroll the trait vs reroll instability.

 RabbitMaster wrote:

UncleanOne wrote:
If he's part of the Incursion then he gets corruption (meh),re-roll instability checks (pretty good), and can roll all his powers on Change if you want.

You don't have to be part of the incursion to use the new psychic powers. They technically replace the table in the codex so anybody can use them.

So it's really only reroll the trait vs reroll instability.

That not what he said. he said you get to roll all of your powers on the change discipline, as opposed to only half his powers (thanks to the errata from the draft FAQ)

 CrownAxe wrote:

 RabbitMaster wrote:

UncleanOne wrote:
If he's part of the Incursion then he gets corruption (meh),re-roll instability checks (pretty good), and can roll all his powers on Change if you want.

You don't have to be part of the incursion to use the new psychic powers. They technically replace the table in the codex so anybody can use them.

So it's really only reroll the trait vs reroll instability.

That not what he said. he said you get to roll all of your powers on the change discipline, as opposed to only half his powers (thanks to the errata from the draft FAQ)

True but I think I'd much prefer to have the LoC in a CAD as Warlord. You're very rarely going to have him roll all on the Tzeentch table as you'll generally get much more function and versatility out of rolling on divination, malefic or both.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 RabbitMaster wrote:

UncleanOne wrote:
If he's part of the Incursion then he gets corruption (meh),re-roll instability checks (pretty good), and can roll all his powers on Change if you want.

You don't have to be part of the incursion to use the new psychic powers. They technically replace the table in the codex so anybody can use them.

So it's really only reroll the trait vs reroll instability.

That not what he said. he said you get to roll all of your powers on the change discipline, as opposed to only half his powers (thanks to the errata from the draft FAQ)

Yeah my bad, I read too fast so my brain farted a bit.

True but I think I'd much prefer to have the LoC in a CAD as Warlord. You're very rarely going to have him roll all on the Tzeentch table as you'll generally get much more function and versatility out of rolling on divination, malefic or both.

I agree. Never felt the need to go full discipline of Change on my LoC. My favorite is the full divination because it complement nicely the LoC exept scrier's gaze. Well, now I assume perfect timing is crap for the LoC since it doesnt work on witchfires anymore but still, 4 out of 6 good powers and a good primaris in bonus. And usually, the malefic spells are covered by my heralds + kairos.

The Change powers are super good with the big chart now. Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway are both good still, but the Nova and D-Shot can both be very handy to have (and having 2 of each is real good). I'm strongly considering going LoC Warlord now, but trying to fit an Endless Grimoire in so he can have all the powers. I'm still tinkering with the best way to fit it (costs 80 points minimum to give it to a naked level 1 herald).

I honestly don't see Divination being that great these days, you no longer really need the 4++ power since he comes with the robes now. Prescience is useful sure, and the re-roll wounds/saves thing is good, but otherwise I think it's outmatched.

UncleanOne wrote:
The Change powers are super good with the big chart now. Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway are both good still, but the Nova and D-Shot can both be very handy to have (and having 2 of each is real good). I'm strongly considering going LoC Warlord now, but trying to fit an Endless Grimoire in so he can have all the powers. I'm still tinkering with the best way to fit it (costs 80 points minimum to give it to a naked level 1 herald).

I honestly don't see Divination being that great these days, you no longer really need the 4++ power since he comes with the robes now. Prescience is useful sure, and the re-roll wounds/saves thing is good, but otherwise I think it's outmatched.

If I had exalted chariots to spam I'd definitely consider it but I don't and I still think divination and Malefic are quite useful in this list. Misfortune makes the 3 or 4 D6 S7 flickering fire you're throwing out from the Paradox Herald scary to pretty much anything and having Cursed Earth on the LoC itself gives it much more freedom of movement to operate indepently. Granted I haven't really used the new nova too much so experimenting with that a little more might change my mind. At the same time you have to find the 80 points for the Herald with endless Grimoire and I'm just not sure I'm willing to make the sacrifices for it.

Just a quick note.
Endless grimoire can only be taken by a herald and will only know all the Change powers if he is also the warlord.

I forgot about Misfortune. I agree I can't make the necessary cuts to fit I'm the Endless Grimoire without missing what i did cut. If the LOC is warlord then 1/3 of the time you won't need cursed earth due to his trait (assuming you always re roll looking for trait # 3). But you may be on to somrthing. I'm gonna give it a shot with him as warlord in the CAD.

 Rypher wrote:
Just a quick note.
Endless grimoire can only be taken by a herald and will only know all the Change powers if he is also the warlord.

A Herald has to hold it, but it just specifies your warlord knows all the Change powers. There's no restriction on who the Warlord is (unless they changed it in the FAQ which I didn't see). Basically the Herald reads your Warlord a bed time story before the game, and teaches him the powers.