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So as I'm finally getting a chance to go through the HH book, I have come to start to see how anti worship of anything the space marines are.

In 40k do they worship the emperor? My understanding is they see him as a god like figure in all but the name of God, but do not actually worship him as one. Is this assumption still true? Or do they now worship him and simply put up with the eclesiarcy because they understand it's necessary for the IoM.

It depends. every chapter has it's own unique chapter cult. and they mostly do NOT worship the emperor as a god, HOWEVER, several chapters, notably the black templars, do in fact worship the emperor.

From my understanding (which may be years out of date) The marines see him as a paternal-esque figure, with only a few outliers worshiping him as a god. Also as far as I know it's just some unspoken arrangement that Marines don't go yapping to everyone that he's not a god, they understand the imperial creed is what holds the Imperium together.

I find the lines are blurry & never held to any consistency. It honestly reminds me that technically marines answer to no one besides the High Lords, and yet they're constantly being accused of heresy by the inquisition, etc. etc.

As I said though, MOST chapters don't regard the Emperor as a god, the best of men, but not a god. It's also a good point to note that there are still some Marines from the great crusade & horus heresy that yet live (Bjorn the Fell-handed for one) who would probably take offense to Marines worshipping the emperor as god.

They may call him a Man while the Ecclesiarchy calls him a God, but the way they treat him differs little from how the Ecclesiarchy does, except in terminology and specific ritual details. They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife.

The terminology differences may mean a great deal to them and to the Ecclesiarchy, but that just emulates so many religions in the real world, where hair-splitting has led to schisms and wars.

think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm , and think they will join him in the afterlife.

in fairness most of that is true, and depending on how you interpret things even the latter is

BrianDavion wrote:

think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm , and think they will join him in the afterlife.

in fairness most of that is true, and depending on how you interpret things even the latter is

That's not the point. The point is how they treat him, is basically treating him like a god, even though they may say he is a Man (or the Ultimate Man or the Perfect Man or some other semantic variation). Their activities are basically religious worship even if they don't call it such or deny it.

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm , and think they will join him in the afterlife.

in fairness most of that is true, and depending on how you interpret things even the latter is

That's not the point. The point is how they treat him, is basically treating him like a god, even though they may say he is a Man (or the Ultimate Man or the Perfect Man or some other semantic variation). Their activities are basically religious worship even if they don't call it such or deny it.

They think that small difference is very important.
That not a god idea makes them "true" to the original idea I'm there perspective.

Space wolves sometimes use allfather to refer to emperor.

Every Chapter is different. The Space Wolves would certainly see adulation of the Emperor as a god to be offensive.
The Black Templars on the other hand actively worship him.

The majority of chapters revere him as the leader of the Imperium and their ultimate progenitor (through the Primarchs) but they fall short of worshipping him as a true god.

 Corennus wrote:
Every Chapter is different. The Space Wolves would certainly see adulation of the Emperor as a god to be offensive.
The Black Templars on the other hand actively worship him.

The majority of chapters revere him as the leader of the Imperium and their ultimate progenitor (through the Primarchs) but they fall short of worshipping him as a true god.

What they do is active worship. Just because they lie to themselves about it and call it something else does not make it any less so.

To recap my earlier post:

Ecclesiarchy: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him a God.

Space Marines: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him something other than a God.

Except for names, titles, and ritualistic details, what they do is exactly the same. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

I miss the days when marines just clearly worshipped the god-emperor. I don't know why they felt the need to change it.

as I said saying ANYTHING about how Marines relate to the emperor is... iffy, because every chapter is differant. and yes many do, or defacto do, worship him. othbers don't.

I mean what evidance do we have that marines worship the emperor? defacto or not?

BrianDavion wrote:
as I said saying ANYTHING about how Marines relate to the emperor is... iffy, because every chapter is differant. and yes many do, or defacto do, worship him. othbers don't.

I mean what evidance do we have that marines worship the emperor? defacto or not?

What about the fact they pray to him, seek his blessings (and not in the metaphorical sense but believe his blessings/approval affect reality), think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. Those are all acts and beliefs of religious worship. Whether they call the Emperor a God or a Man or a Potato is irrelevant to the fact they are actually engaging in religious worship. They may differ from the Ecclesiarchy and from each other in matters of ritual or title or doctrine, but the nature of what they are doing is no different.

Didn't like the change to making templars worship the emp, but it has precedent with other chapters, hell, even Garro in 30k worships the Emperor and he is a legionary, imperial truth and all that.

So hypothetical if the big E came back, would most of the space marines go back to being fully against the idea of worshiping him?

I ask because if and when the 40k "end times" Happen, i could see it where the big E comes back, and then causes the IoM to split, with most of the space marine chapters siding with the Big E and a large amount of the human population freaking out.

Iracundus wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Every Chapter is different. The Space Wolves would certainly see adulation of the Emperor as a god to be offensive.
The Black Templars on the other hand actively worship him.

The majority of chapters revere him as the leader of the Imperium and their ultimate progenitor (through the Primarchs) but they fall short of worshipping him as a true god.

What they do is active worship. Just because they lie to themselves about it and call it something else does not make it any less so.

To recap my earlier post:

Ecclesiarchy: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him a God.

Space Marines: They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife. They call him something other than a God.

Except for names, titles, and ritualistic details, what they do is exactly the same. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

To be fair though all of that is true and they know it. This is a universe where praying to the right thing can actually give you super strength or bring grooblemonsters through the walls of reality.

Does anyone have a quote saying that most Space Marine Chapters don't worship the Emperor? I know the First Founding Chapters don't but it would be unsurprising if later ones (especially after the Second Founding) have become religious since most of the people on the planets they recruit from would be believers in the Imperial Cult. While they could brainwash them into no longer believing it stripping away someone's faith may not be the wisest choice in a universe with such temptations as Chaos can provide.

Backspacehacker wrote:So hypothetical if the big E came back, would most of the space marines go back to being fully against the idea of worshiping him?

I would assume that the Emperor would allow the worship to continue as it keeps the Ruinous Powers at bay. If he did try to change it it'd likely be slowly as otherwise he'd incite anarchy. Many would not believe he is who he says he is. I imagine the Space Marines would largely follow his edicts.

I agree with Iracundus. Many Space Marines do not worship the Emperor as god, rather they worship him as omnipotent man
Most Space Marines do worship him as a god (even if they call it different). Many of them already started to do so in the days of the Heresy, and it probably has only become more since then.

I agree with Bjorn the fel handed in this instance.

"Calling Him a God was what caused all this mess in the first place"

(Or it was something like that)

If I remember the Space Marines are the only imperial faction that don't see the Emperor as a divine being, but like anything with the Imperium there are the odd worshipper. The one thing they do all see him as is a paragon to be emulated alongside their primarch. This sorta dances on a line since they do believe that his every decision is correct, but do not (all) believe he is some sort of divine deity (he is a very smart, very powerful man, but a man nonetheless).

Being shown that he is fallible is one of the main reasons why Marines go rogue.

Of course, as with everything canon, take it with a grain of salt. GW will probably flipflop on this at some point as well.

Some notes that I culled from Lexicanum and such regarding various Chapters that worship the Emperor:

The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld). (IA v9, C:UM 2E, WH40K Comp, WD 99, C:Assassins 3E)

The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders". (Chapter Approved 2001, Blood of Asaheim(BL) )

The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed". (Chapter Approved 2001, IA v12)

The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes. (WH40K BRB 5E, C:UM, C: EoT, DW: Rites of Battle, C: SM 6E ebook)

The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious". (DW: Honour the Chapter, Legends of the Space Marines anthology, several BL novels/stories)

The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry". (IA v9)

The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshipping camp. (IA v4, v6, v7, v9, WD 101, WD 105)

And then there are the Storm Wardens, from FFG's Deathwatch RPG. Not a GW Chapter, obviously, but one more for the pile.

One can make arguments for the Angels Resplendent/Angels Penitent, the Brazen Skulls, the Celebrants, the Crimson Fists, the Templars of Blood, and the Novamarines, though these Chapters are not outright said to worship the God-Emperor (but elements to what lore there is about them suggests such an arrangement)

whats your source on the storm wardens being worshippers of the emperor?

I think praying holds less in line with actual worship and faith in the 40k world than it does in the Real World and more in line with magic. Space Marines don't pray to show faith, they pray to machine spirits, they pray to an undead psychic entity, they pray to get into contact with warp spirits, it has more in common with spoken invocation in a magic spell - they pray expecting results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A theory a mate tossed at me once - the big E knew he was going to be entombed on the Throne and worshipping from the masses would siphon off his power and prevent him recovering.

BrianDavion wrote:
whats your source on the storm wardens being worshippers of the emperor?

The tribal culture that they originate from worships the Emperor as an All-Father sort of god-figure, which carries through into the Chapter's culture with the woad-paint and such. This is further reinforced by the various mysticisms the Chapter practices, such as the prayer-wrapped stones they carry in what is, essentially, a gris-gris bag.

 Psienesis wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
whats your source on the storm wardens being worshippers of the emperor?

The tribal culture that they originate from worships the Emperor as an All-Father sort of god-figure, which carries through into the Chapter's culture with the woad-paint and such. This is further reinforced by the various mysticisms the Chapter practices, such as the prayer-wrapped stones they carry in what is, essentially, a gris-gris bag.

I'd be careful about drawing too many assumptions from that./ most space marine chapters take on some of the tradtions and practices of their home, it doesn't mean they all worship the emperor.

For the most part, they venerate him as a warrior and as their primogenitor, but not as a "god".

(Of course, there are going to be d-bag elements in any group that refuse to toe the official party line, and then you get things like word bearers.).

Well on the subject of emperor worship, why has no one, at least to my knowledge, pointed out that the work they all pull this worship from was written by a traitor primarch?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well on the subject of emperor worship, why has no one, at least to my knowledge, pointed out that the work they all pull this worship from was written by a traitor primarch?

Because virtually nobody knows the full picture. The Heresy is 10,000 years in the past and records were obliterated or altered to obscure what really happened. Any direct account from a CSM veteran of the Heresy would be dismissed as lies. The Inquisition might know more, but in a broad stroke sense, not necessarily the nitty gritty details of what happened or who wrote what 10,000 years ago.

The Lectitio Divinatus is written by Lorgar before the Heresy.
The Emperor chastises the Word Bearers for worshipping him.
Lorgar abandons the Lectitio and starts down the path to Chaos, eventually writing the Book of Lorgar instead.
Euphrati Keeler the Remembrancer joins the Great Crusade.
Somewhere in that period the Cult of the Emperor starts up in secret basing their belief in the divinity of the Emperor and the Lectitio Divinatus.
The Heresy happens.
Keeler demonstrates psychic powers.
The Cult of the Emperor regards Keeler as a Saint.
The Silent Sisterhood take Keeler in.
The Battle for Terra happens.
In the aftermath of the Emperor's internment, the Cult of the Emperor grows.
The Silent Sisterhood and the Cult eventually become the Ecclesiarchy.

Or something like that.

There was nothing secret about the Cult of the Emperor. There were billions of regular-Joe humans on Terra worshiping the Emperor while he was walking around there. Know what he did about it? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

The issue with the Word Bearers is not that they were worshiping him, but that they were expending far too much time and resources building temples and such when his plan for them was to be conquering new worlds. That they were building temples and monuments and such to the Emperor is coincidental, actually, but it allowed for the wrong lesson to be taken from Monarchia, which led to the fall of the Word Bearers. (cue dramatic music)

In an ironic twist, most of the worlds the Word Bearers conquered in the Great Crusade remain some of the most-loyal worlds in the Imperium, ten thousand years later.

 Psienesis wrote:
Some notes that I culled from Lexicanum and such regarding various Chapters that worship the Emperor:

The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld). (IA v9, C:UM 2E, WH40K Comp, WD 99, C:Assassins 3E)

The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders". (Chapter Approved 2001, Blood of Asaheim(BL) )

The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed". (Chapter Approved 2001, IA v12)

The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes. (WH40K BRB 5E, C:UM, C: EoT, DW: Rites of Battle, C: SM 6E ebook)

The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious". (DW: Honour the Chapter, Legends of the Space Marines anthology, several BL novels/stories)

The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry". (IA v9)

The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshipping camp. (IA v4, v6, v7, v9, WD 101, WD 105)

And then there are the Storm Wardens, from FFG's Deathwatch RPG. Not a GW Chapter, obviously, but one more for the pile.

One can make arguments for the Angels Resplendent/Angels Penitent, the Brazen Skulls, the Celebrants, the Crimson Fists, the Templars of Blood, and the Novamarines, though these Chapters are not outright said to worship the God-Emperor (but elements to what lore there is about them suggests such an arrangement)

Also the Black Templars (or at least the ones who would become so), who (in the person of Sigismund) got some serious grief from Dorn during the Heresy itself for wanting to do so.

There was nothing secret about the Cult of the Emperor. There were billions of regular-Joe humans on Terra worshiping the Emperor while he was walking around there. Know what he did about it? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Doing so, yes. Doing so openly, no. I agree he clearly didn't care that much - because he definitely could have made an effort to hunt them down, and didn't - but at the time the Lecticio Divinitatus-inspired mob and assorted others were meeting furtively in secret prayer meets, not doing so openly; so it wasn't simply a case of burning down more churches (the 'church' in outcast dead was essentially just a funeral hall and definitely wasn't dedicated to the emperor - at least to start with)

Remember that even if the Emperor did have issues with religion, (a) he clearly didn't mind being effectively deified that much (because he deliberately set things up so the Mechanicus would consider him Technology Jesus) and (b) there are occasional references to other religion surviving (Oll Person in Know No Fear - who admittedly isn't exactly 'normal' - and Hurtado Bronzi in Legion - who is - both mention being 'Catheric by devotion' and have what appear to be Christian crosses).



At the same time, when the Cult of the Emperor did start to get organised into a meaningful faction - with Euphrati Keeler playing wandering missionary between the various hidden sects, Malcador did respond by saying "stop that....." and sending Garro to try and catch her (again). The Emperor didn't react personally because this was post-Magnusite Incursion.

That they were building temples and monuments and such to the Emperor is coincidental

The Emperor was still actively and specifically adamant that he was 'was no god and would suffer no such belief in his realm', and 'The Last Church' makes clear he did have serious issues with religion.

To be honest, Lorgar was right; he expected the 'rights' of a God (immortality, essentially being a figure of near-worship reverence by the Mechanicus, the ability to fundamentally reshape the universe, the right to destroy ways of life and cultures of entire worlds based on the fact that 'he's right', absolute obedience based on threats he knew about but kept secret from you, and the right to determine what you could and couldn't know about the universe), but ultimately just didn't like people using the word 'God'.

Well on the subject of emperor worship, why has no one, at least to my knowledge, pointed out that the work they all pull this worship from was written by a traitor primarch?

Because this didn't all start with Lorgar.
The Lectitio Divinitatus was the best written and most eloquent tract on 'why-the-emperor-is-clearly-a-god-even-if-he-doesn't-like-being-called-one', and its writer was the most influential emperor-worshipper (that we know of!) but he certainly wasn't the only one. The Cult of the Emperor developed from dozens of people in dozens of places; it's just that once it started to coalesce into what ended up becoming the Temple of the Saviour Emperor (the Ecclesiarchy as was pre-Vandire), the Lectitio was one of the core documents used to articulate it's beliefs.

The fact that Lorgar wrote them, and he'd later turn traitor, doesn't make the words themselves any less valid. Hell, the assorted Horus Heresy Gulliman stories featuring the codex makes it clear that well over half of the codex's writings on siege warfare are plagiarised wholesale from Peturabo.