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If the new FAQ goes forth, how legal would this be: A CAD and a formation in an army, with the CAD supplying transports (drop pods) ito units in the formation? It would be a Space Marine army and both Cad and Formation would be same chapter. ( Would that make a difference if legal? Could you do two separate chapters and share drop pods?). Thanks for any info and thoughts!

Absolutely fine, so long as the units are from the same Faction. The rules for Allies only tells you to look at the chart if you have units in your army that are from different Factions. What Detachment the units come from makes no difference.

If they are of the same Faction they may start embarked in each other's Transport vehicles, even if from different Detachments.

The Allies rules (of which Battle Brothers is a part) are only relevant when considering how models from different Factions interact.

You say that with such conviction even though you were involved in the "Same faction, different detachments transports" thread. It just fell away after col_Impact's derailment was settled, but there was never a consensus on the original question.

OP: we don't know. The written text of the first half of the rules was copy-pasted directly from 6th; where the only detachments you could have were your primary and an allied(the primary was a CAD). The second half, the matrix and the definitions of the relationships, were all re-written. Every faction is battle brothers with themselves and that relationship cannot exist from the first half's rules.

So either we have a situation where alliance is based on detachment, or it is plain all units on the table(which means no unit can start the game in any transport ever).

I say it with conviction because it's literally what the rules for Allies say:



It has nothing to do with Detachments and everything to do with whether the units are from a different Faction.

You could theoretically have a detachment that contains models from different factions but are BBs with each other, and those units wouldn't be able to start in each other's transports, even though they're from the same Faction.

And for as many times as this has and will come up now that the FAQ is out: That is an exact copy-paste from 6th edition while everything following it is a newly written rule, and those rules are in conflict.

Prior to the FAQ it didn't matter if battle-brothers relationships were between detachments or all units.

With the FAQ it does; and rules written for a prior edition that are in confict with the rules changed for the current edition must be the first discounted.

What you are saying amounts to: complety discount the new matrix, tau and eldar are still battle brothers.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And for as many times as this has and will come up now that the FAQ is out: That is an exact copy-paste from 6th edition while everything following it is a newly written rule, and those rules are in conflict.

Prior to the FAQ it didn't matter if battle-brothers relationships were between detachments or all units.

With the FAQ it does; and rules written for a prior edition that are in confict with the rules changed for the current edition must be the first discounted.

What you are saying amounts to: complety discount the new matrix, tau and eldar are still battle brothers.

Is that rule from 7th ed rulebook or not?

If yes it's valid. Whether it was same in 6th ed or not.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And for as many times as this has and will come up now that the FAQ is out: That is an exact copy-paste from 6th edition while everything following it is a newly written rule, and those rules are in conflict.

Prior to the FAQ it didn't matter if battle-brothers relationships were between detachments or all units.

With the FAQ it does; and rules written for a prior edition that are in confict with the rules changed for the current edition must be the first discounted.

What you are saying amounts to: complety discount the new matrix, tau and eldar are still battle brothers.

No, what I'm saying is that you look at the factions for every unit in your army. Are there any units that are a different Faction to any other unit in your army? If not, then don't use the rules for Allies; use the core rules for friendly units as normal. If they are different factions to each other, however, then you consult the chart.

If you just ignore this section of the rules, then no unit may ever start embarked in a transport, regardless of their detachment, because ally status is determined per unit, not detachment.

I had already stated that going with a unit by unit with the matrix means that no unit may start in any transport.

I had always played it similar to 6th(since it was written for 6th) as a unit-by-unit from different detachments before the FAQ even.

Although straight unit-by-unit before the FAQ had everything function just fine. It is the FAQ that F'd everything up.

The literal rules have been posted and highlighted. It already says that you ignore the allies matrix when dealing with units of the same Faction in the same army. Hence, these units can start the game embarked in each other's transports.

Unit by Unit goes fine, because if one unit is in the same army and same Faction as another unit, then the Allies Matrix doesn't apply. They are not Battle Brothers with each other, because the game never looks to the Allies Matrix to begin with because they are both units of the same Faction in the same army.

If, while going Unit by Unit, the game sees they are the same Faction but from different Armies, or are different Factions in the same army, or are different Factions in different armies, then the game looks to the Allies Matrix.

 Yarium wrote:

Unit by Unit goes fine, because if one unit is in the same army and same Faction as another unit, then the Allies Matrix doesn't apply. They are not Battle Brothers with each other, because the game never looks to the Allies Matrix to begin with because they are both units of the same Faction in the same army.

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because it's a question that nags at me, not because I think you're wrong), if you don't consult the Allies Matrix when they're the same faction, then why do they bother listing a "Battle Brothers" level for when you have the same faction on both axes of the table? It would make more sense to say "not applicable"

 doctortom wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Unit by Unit goes fine, because if one unit is in the same army and same Faction as another unit, then the Allies Matrix doesn't apply. They are not Battle Brothers with each other, because the game never looks to the Allies Matrix to begin with because they are both units of the same Faction in the same army.

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because it's a question that nags at me, not because I think you're wrong), if you don't consult the Allies Matrix when they're the same faction, then why do they bother listing a "Battle Brothers" level for when you have the same faction on both axes of the table? It would make more sense to say "not applicable"

For games with more than two players. If you're doing 2v2 or something like that.

 doctortom wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Unit by Unit goes fine, because if one unit is in the same army and same Faction as another unit, then the Allies Matrix doesn't apply. They are not Battle Brothers with each other, because the game never looks to the Allies Matrix to begin with because they are both units of the same Faction in the same army.

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because it's a question that nags at me, not because I think you're wrong), if you don't consult the Allies Matrix when they're the same faction, then why do they bother listing a "Battle Brothers" level for when you have the same faction on both axes of the table? It would make more sense to say "not applicable"

I would guess it is because the "Armies of the Imperium" are listed as Battle Brothers, though there are a ton of different Factions in them (SW/BA/GK/DA/ AdMech/ AM/AS). This then tells you that the Factions included are all Battle Brothers with each other. For consistency, they probably used that for the rest of the armies in the matrix when listed referring to allying with themselves.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I had already stated that going with a unit by unit with the matrix means that no unit may start in any transport.

I had always played it similar to 6th(since it was written for 6th) as a unit-by-unit from different detachments before the FAQ even.

Although straight unit-by-unit before the FAQ had everything function just fine. It is the FAQ that F'd everything up.

Then why are you ignoring the rules I quoted again? Those rules prevent exactly what you're afraid of; if you judge faction relationship unit-by-unit, but don't look at the allies chart for units with the same Faction, then the Battle Brothers restriction doesn't come into play. Perfectly RAW, you don't have to ignore rules, and fits RAI.

doctortom wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Unit by Unit goes fine, because if one unit is in the same army and same Faction as another unit, then the Allies Matrix doesn't apply. They are not Battle Brothers with each other, because the game never looks to the Allies Matrix to begin with because they are both units of the same Faction in the same army.

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because it's a question that nags at me, not because I think you're wrong), if you don't consult the Allies Matrix when they're the same faction, then why do they bother listing a "Battle Brothers" level for when you have the same faction on both axes of the table? It would make more sense to say "not applicable"

We can only guess at the intent, but it could be to future-prof the rules against factions that fill the same row as other factions but are different factions in and of themselves, like Armies of the Imperium. IIRC this happened with some supplements, and might be the case for Renegades & Heretics, but I'd need to check the wording on those.

 Bi'ios wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Unit by Unit goes fine, because if one unit is in the same army and same Faction as another unit, then the Allies Matrix doesn't apply. They are not Battle Brothers with each other, because the game never looks to the Allies Matrix to begin with because they are both units of the same Faction in the same army.

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because it's a question that nags at me, not because I think you're wrong), if you don't consult the Allies Matrix when they're the same faction, then why do they bother listing a "Battle Brothers" level for when you have the same faction on both axes of the table? It would make more sense to say "not applicable"

For games with more than two players. If you're doing 2v2 or something like that.

Untrue.

2x2 isn't a relationship between units in Your army.

The allies rules have nothing to do with anything other than your army.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Unit by Unit goes fine, because if one unit is in the same army and same Faction as another unit, then the Allies Matrix doesn't apply. They are not Battle Brothers with each other, because the game never looks to the Allies Matrix to begin with because they are both units of the same Faction in the same army.

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because it's a question that nags at me, not because I think you're wrong), if you don't consult the Allies Matrix when they're the same faction, then why do they bother listing a "Battle Brothers" level for when you have the same faction on both axes of the table? It would make more sense to say "not applicable"

For games with more than two players. If you're doing 2v2 or something like that.

Untrue.

2x2 isn't a relationship between units in Your army.

The allies rules have nothing to do with anything other than your army.

If both players are on the same side, I would think it does apply, for the purposes of giving buffs and such to your partners units. I am unable to quote anything, but that's definately a HIWPI situation.

Can 2 players add units to the same detachment? Or does each player have to have their own units in their own detachments within their own armies?

There are no rules in the RB for 2v2 games, so that's not a plausible explanation.

The only reason I can think of for the same-faction-BBs on the chart are for situations where multiple Factions occupy the same row. Armies of the Imperium are a good example of this.

Still, completely irrelevant to the fact that you don't use the rules for allies if you are comparing units that have the same Faction.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Can 2 players add units to the same detachment? Or does each player have to have their own units in their own detachments within their own armies?

/facepalm

I was answering the question of why armies would be BB's with themselves in the rule book. That's all. And why wouldn't you use the allies chart in a 2v2 match?

Armies of the Imperium are the only multi-faction under one entry. Everything else is a single-faction.

The matrix and levels rules changed for this edition.

The very first part of the allies rules did not.

These changed and copy-pasted rules are in conflict.

The most logical reconciliation of that conflict is to err on the side ofthe changes. To err on the side of the copy-paste is to discount all the changes in 7th edition and just play 6th.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Armies of the Imperium are the only multi-faction under one entry. Everything else is a single-faction.

Renegades and Heretics use the same line as CSM, but are a different faction.

IIRC, many 6th edition supplements were worded similarly. This anomaly could simply be a way for those to make sense.

The matrix and levels rules changed for this edition.

The very first part of the allies rules did not.

These changed and copy-pasted rules are in conflict.

They are not in conflict. You're seeing something and are coming to the conclusion that the authors missed something. While this is a possibility, it is not the only possibility.

The most logical reconciliation of that conflict is to err on the side ofthe changes. To err on the side of the copy-paste is to discount all the changes in 7th edition and just play 6th.

We must have very different definitions of logical, then. Your solution:

a) Requires the players to ignore a section of printed rules; and
b) Stops all units from being able to start the game embarked in transports, even if they're in the same Detachment.

This cannot be right. My interpretation doesn't break anything and keeps the rules as written.

The "Battle Brothers" designation for units of the same Faction on the Allies chart is odd, but it doesn't break the game, and can be explained as simply trying to keep things open for future situations like Armies of the Imperium. That alone is no reason to completely disregard an entire rule.

General Hobbs wrote:
If the new FAQ goes forth, how legal would this be: A CAD and a formation in an army, with the CAD supplying transports (drop pods) ito units in the formation? It would be a Space Marine army and both Cad and Formation would be same chapter. ( Would that make a difference if legal? Could you do two separate chapters and share drop pods?). Thanks for any info and thoughts!

How I play it is:

Army List
Space Marine "Iron Hands" detachment #1
Space Marine "Iron Hands" detachment #2
Space Marine "Ultramarines" detachment
Grey Knights detachment

---
both Iron Hands may share transports on deployment
Ultramarines are limited to their own transports
Grey Knights are limited to their own transports

---
Reasoning:
Both Iron Hands chapters are of the same Faction. It really doesn't make any sense to limit this. Call it RAW or Houserule, but it's non-negationable to me at the table. Play it like that or find someone else.
While Ultramarines are of the same Faction, they're not of the same Chapter and as a houserule I treat that as the same as being of a different faction - I think that's what represents the spirit of the FAQ best. Therefore they may not embark on anything but their own transports during deployment. This is how I build MY Marine armies, but I'd still play someone who goes with the less restrictive rule as written (=may embark).
Grey Knights are a different faction, but battlebrothers - so they may no longer embark on anything but their own transports during deployment.

*edit* Oh - and on a 2v2, i treat it as 1v1 basically. the controlling players of each side have to arrange how they split stuff like the psychic phase. e.g. you still get d6+mastery levels as a team, how you allocate them is up to the two of you.

 Bi'ios wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Unit by Unit goes fine, because if one unit is in the same army and same Faction as another unit, then the Allies Matrix doesn't apply. They are not Battle Brothers with each other, because the game never looks to the Allies Matrix to begin with because they are both units of the same Faction in the same army.

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because it's a question that nags at me, not because I think you're wrong), if you don't consult the Allies Matrix when they're the same faction, then why do they bother listing a "Battle Brothers" level for when you have the same faction on both axes of the table? It would make more sense to say "not applicable"

For games with more than two players. If you're doing 2v2 or something like that.

Untrue.

2x2 isn't a relationship between units in Your army.

The allies rules have nothing to do with anything other than your army.

If both players are on the same side, I would think it does apply, for the purposes of giving buffs and such to your partners units. I am unable to quote anything, but that's definately a HIWPI situation.

The question is though, where in the rulebook does it say they're doing it for the reason of 2 x 2 games?

I think the answer of the different factions in Armies of the Imperium slot on the table is the answer I'm looking for. Thanks to everyone for the answers!

 doctortom wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Unit by Unit goes fine, because if one unit is in the same army and same Faction as another unit, then the Allies Matrix doesn't apply. They are not Battle Brothers with each other, because the game never looks to the Allies Matrix to begin with because they are both units of the same Faction in the same army.

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because it's a question that nags at me, not because I think you're wrong), if you don't consult the Allies Matrix when they're the same faction, then why do they bother listing a "Battle Brothers" level for when you have the same faction on both axes of the table? It would make more sense to say "not applicable"

For games with more than two players. If you're doing 2v2 or something like that.

Untrue.

2x2 isn't a relationship between units in Your army.

The allies rules have nothing to do with anything other than your army.

If both players are on the same side, I would think it does apply, for the purposes of giving buffs and such to your partners units. I am unable to quote anything, but that's definately a HIWPI situation.

The question is though, where in the rulebook does it say they're doing it for the reason of 2 x 2 games?

I think the answer of the different factions in Armies of the Imperium slot on the table is the answer I'm looking for. Thanks to everyone for the answers!

Oh, it doesn't say that anywhere. I was simply guessing at a reason that it was there in the first place. It bundled up "armies of the imperium" answer is the most likely the real answer, and just not one that had occurred to me. Cheers, and have fun!

"For the purposes of the Allies rules, the Renegade Knights Faction allies with other Factions in exactly the same way as the Chaos Space Marines Faction..."

Yet more evidence to suggest that Factions are listed as Battle Brothers with themselves to allow for new Factions to be added that share rows with existing ones.