Lightning Claws & Power Fist Clarifications

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**Zingraff**

I'll assume this is something of a newb question, but I've had a look at my Calth MkIV Marines, and the way the Lightening Claws are treated in the kit, is basically as a physical "upgrade" of the Power Fists, in that you glue the claw on to the fist.

I'm obviously a Space Marines novice, but I can't figure out whether adding the claw part turns the Power Fist into an entirely different weapon, or it becomes both Fist and Claw. I'm going to assume I should treat it solely as a Lightning Claw, because having it represent both is both expensive and impractical.

**konst80hummel**

They are 2 different weapons.

**vulk4n**

You are right in treating it as just a Lightning Claw. There is no Lightning Claw/ Power Fist combo weapon (That I'm aware of)

**MechaEmperor7000**

It's just a way for GW to make the kit more modular. If you look at other lightning claws, they're literally power fists with wolverine claws on the back. But back then either plastic technology wasn't good enough to separate them like this, or the model in question doesn't have both options.

**Zingraff**

Great, thank you all for confirming what I had already suspected, and for your rapid replies!

On the matter of Lightning Claws and Power Fists, which would you recommend as melee weapons for SM Sergeants?

**MechaEmperor7000**

Power Fists if you must give him something, but squad sergeants should remain bare unless you have the points; they only have 1 more attack than the baseline trooper and since both are specialist weapons, he won't get the other +1 attack, and 2 (3 on the charge) attacks is usually not enough to kill anything that your squad isn't already equipped to fight.

The reason the Power Fist is somewhat useful is if you get caught with a Walker or vehicle within charging range and you didn't fire a heavy weapon; the Fist has a much better chance of popping the walker/vehicle than using the stock krak grenades. However you can just break and run for it if you don't have fearless (and you automatically disengage from other vehicles), which is why it might be easier to just go bare-bones.

**Zingraff**

So if I'm going to equip my sergeants differently at all, I should consider combi-weapons, or pistol & sword then?

**MechaEmperor7000**

I prefer to go with a single combi-weapon that's the same as the squad's Special Weapon. If you must tool him up for close combat I would still go with the Power Fist; he doesn't have enough special rules or attacks to make full use of a normal power weapon, other dudes can tank hits for him, and a Power Fist can either rip through tanks or Instant Death enemy characters that doesn't have T5 or higher.

**Nevelon**

A combi to match the squad’s special is the stock answer to “what do I give my sergeants” It generally helps the squad do a better job at what it’s supposed to be doing.

If you don’t want to give them a combi, just keeping the basic bolter or going with the classic BP/chainsword is probably your best option.

If you want to give them a CC toy, the power weapon/BP is probably your best option. I’m not a big fan of fists on sarges. They are expensive for a 1W 3+ armor save guy who can be challenged out and killed before he strikes. If you are worried about tanks, a melta bomb might be a better use of points

Lightning claws are not a terrible choice if you want to keep the bolter. (This is relevant for units like sternguard who really don’t want to give up that special ammo)

Things like chapter tactics, if you plan on having a character with the squad, etc can make a big difference in gearing up sarges. When it doubt, you can always magnetize.

**Zingraff**

I think I'll go with combi-weapons then. Before this thread gets relocated to the Tactics section, how useful are Flamers on Marines?

Coming from Guard, BS4 and template weapons seems like such a waste, instinctively I feel BS4 is more suited for plasma or melta. I just don't have the practical experience to know whether I should equip my marines with flamers or not.

I've also considered the relative lack of pistols and swords in the kit, and found out I'm better off setting those aside for the Command Squad I need to equip.

**Nevelon**

Zingraff wrote:
I think I'll go with combi-weapons then. Before this thread gets relocated to the Tactics section, how useful are Flamers on Marines?

Coming from Guard, BS4 and template weapons seems like such a waste, instinctively I feel BS4 is more suited for plasma or melta. I just don't have the practical experience to know whether I should equip my marines with flamers or not.

I've also considered the relative lack of pistols and swords in the kit, and found out I'm better off setting those aside for the Command Squad I need to equip.

Flamers work fine. Think if it as boltering everything under the template, but auto-hit and ignore cover. As it’s shooting the same sort of thing as the rest of the squad, it makes the whole unit better at it’s job (killing light infantry, spamming wounds on other troops)

Plasma also does a great job vs. the normal stuff tacs are shooting at, but actually has some killing power. More expensive though, and occasionally kills you.

Melta is an odd duck. A single shot is not statistically going to do much, but add the combi (and MM) and you can get a reasonable chance to pop a tank. Which is often worth the bolter guys just standing around for a turn. It’s not so much making the squad better at what it should be doing, but letting it threaten a whole other class or targets, for just a moderate amount of points. As tac squads tend to be heading upfield anyway, getting a little melta there can be very useful.

**MechaEmperor7000**

One of the better ones is Grav followed by Plasma. Grav is just awesome at hurting things, but it's lack of shots is what hurts it. Plasma guns are more generalists; it has the strength, AP and decent volume of shots to threaten anything short of a horde army (which are not that common nowadays)

**Zingraff**

Unfortunately I'm constrained to what was included in the box, and there aren't any grav weapons.

When I assemble a Guard army, I normally avoid equipping common troopers with Plasma and Melta weapons, because their BS 3 doesn't make it worthwhile, and Plasma backfires too often.

I might create 4 squads of tacticals then, with two sergeants armed with combi-flamers and two with combi-plasmas, leaving out combi-meltas.

**vulk4n**

I know you said it is a Betrayal at Calth box. I definetly recommend putting a power fist on the Sgt. as in 30k you can give squad Sgt's Artificer Armour. Usually allows them to deliver quite a bit of pain in any challenge they find themselves in.

**Nevelon**

vulk4n wrote:
I know you said it is a Betrayal at Calth box. I definetly recommend putting a power fist on the Sgt. as in 30k you can give squad Sgt's Artificer Armour. Usually allows them to deliver quite a bit of pain in any challenge they find themselves in.

A good point here. 30k is a whole different kettle of fish then 40k.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Indeed. In 30k you can have entire squads of special weapon guys instead of just one-per squad.

**vulk4n**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Indeed. In 30k you can have entire squads of special weapon guys instead of just one-per squad.

So are you planning on running it as a 30k box set or using it to create a 40k marine army. Because that will really affect what you end up building. Have you looked into 30k rules at all, the Betrayal at Calth boxset really sets you up to make a fairly solid Vet based Legion army

**Zingraff**

vulk4n wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Indeed. In 30k you can have entire squads of special weapon guys instead of just one-per squad.

So are you planning on running it as a 30k box set or using it to create a 40k marine army. Because that will really affect what you end up building. Have you looked into 30k rules at all, the Betrayal at Calth boxset really sets you up to make a fairly solid Vet based Legion army

I'm planning to do a 40k army and my miniatures will represent regular tactical marines. I've found a solution to my problem though, I've purchased enough bits on eBay to allow me to create two alternative combi-bolter sergeants (I needed additional crested helmets & cingulum belts as well). That way I'll have 4 squads of tactical marines and 6 sergeants, the sergeants armed accordingly: 2x combi-flamer, 2x combi-melta, 2x combi-plasma. In addition to those, I'll have enough parts to make alternative special weapon troopers, and equip a command squad (I have the equivalent of 5 MKIV SM boxes).

**Nevelon**

If you want to keep your options open, consider magnets. I use 2mm ones for shoulder mounts on many of my sarges.

**nekooni**

Zingraff wrote:

I'm planning to do a 40k army and my miniatures will represent regular tactical marines. I've found a solution to my problem though, I've purchased enough bits on eBay to allow me to create two alternative combi-bolter sergeants (I needed additional crested helmets & cingulum belts as well). That way I'll have 4 squads of tactical marines and 6 sergeants, the sergeants armed accordingly: 2x combi-flamer, 2x combi-melta, 2x combi-plasma. In addition to those, I'll have enough parts to make alternative special weapon troopers, and equip a command squad (I have the equivalent of 5 MKIV SM boxes).

That's pretty much the best setup you can do. Basically you want to have access to the matching combi-weapon OR just give them the default loadout (Bolt Pistol & Boltgun). Probably the best (although most expensive) solution is to have a matching combi weapon sarge for each special weapon guy you have.
And you can always run your spare Combi sarges as Sternguards, those really like to stack combi-weapons in a squad (4x Combi-melta with special ammunitions is really tasty)

**Lord Blackscale**

vulk4n wrote:
You are right in treating it as just a Lightning Claw. There is no Lightning Claw/ Power Fist combo weapon (That I'm aware of)

Spoiler:

Close enough, right?

**MechaEmperor7000**

Lord Blackscale wrote:
vulk4n wrote:
You are right in treating it as just a Lightning Claw. There is no Lightning Claw/ Power Fist combo weapon (That I'm aware of)

Spoiler:

Close enough, right?

Technically those are chainfists

Sorry, but I just had to have a snark moment.

**Lord Blackscale**

Hence the "close enough". lol