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If I have a unit that has Rapid Fire weapons, can I fire the Rapid Fire weapons with some and Assault weapons with the rest and then charge with the units that used the Assault weapons, leaving the Rapid Fire dudes stationary but still within coherency?

No, they charge as a whole unit. One guy without Relentless can slow the whole unit down.

Nope, in 7th the individual models count. You can fire rapid fire on some models and assualt on others and still charge. But it means that the models firing rapid fire can't charge themselves which most likely will limit your assault as you have to stay in coherency when all is said and done.

Roknar wrote:
Nope, in 7th the individual models count. You can fire rapid fire on some models and assualt on others and still charge. But it means that the models firing rapid fire can't charge themselves which most likely will limit your assault as you have to stay in coherency when all is said and done.

Units charge, not individual models.

Check the rules for rapid firing, only the model firing may not charge, p42. With some models able to to charge you can still pick the unit to charge and be able to do it.

I'm pretty sure there was even a bit bout that in the faq draft but I'd have to check.

The unit charges with speed of slowest model, or something like that?

Roknar wrote:
Check the rules for rapid firing, only the model firing may not charge, p42. With some models able to to charge you can still pick the unit to charge and be able to do it.

I'm pretty sure there was even a bit bout that in the faq draft but I'd have to check.

Again, units charge and not individual models. What you're trying to do is charge individual models.

And I'm saying the unit can charge. The restricion is only for the model that shot. Since some models are able to charge, the unit as such can indeed charge and make it into combat.
The way you actually perform the charge is then on a model per model basis and would see some of them staying mobile but still within 2 inch of a model that is within base combat or more likely in this case, just stay within unit coherency.

This means that you pretty much have to be standing right next to the unit you want to charge if you want to charge them but it's possible. Of course that depends on what you mean by the unit charges.
I'm saying that if even a single model is able to charge the unit can attempt to charge, but if you're saying that if even a single model cannot charge then the unit can't? then yes you're correct.

HIWPI is that only a single model needs to be able to charge to allow a unit to charge. And since the restriction is only for the models firing rapid fire, it's possible to still charge for the unit.

 Ghaz wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Check the rules for rapid firing, only the model firing may not charge, p42. With some models able to to charge you can still pick the unit to charge and be able to do it.

I'm pretty sure there was even a bit bout that in the faq draft but I'd have to check.

Again, units charge and not individual models. What you're trying to do is charge individual models.

While I would generally have agreed, post the new FAQs I think this is a little muddier?

Fur example IC plus wulfen can still charge after running, when normally this would have been prevented. Only one jump pack gives the whole unit a reroll, etc.

And again, the unit consists of all of the models. If a model fires a rapid fire weapon, that model can not charge and thus the unit can't charge. You're still trying to charge with individual models and not the unit, and the rules require that you charge with the unit.

I was trying to wrap my brain around the weird squads for Deathwatch.
So basically, fire only Assault weapons, models with "relentless" or pistols if you want to charge.
So in their case, use the fancy combat shotguns, the bikes in the footslogger squad (plus Terminators) can fire since they are relentless (splitfire too for the bikes!) and the two fancy heavy weapons are both fully assault. The jump troops (again Deathwatch) remove the penalty for "disordered charge" (keep +1A) where I think assaulting more than one squad is a bit painful these days.

Any rapid fire (on a non-relentless model) at all and no charge can happen.

Pretty much how I figured things would go.

Exactly, the unit consists of all models. One model doesn't fire a rapid fire weapon, that model can charge and thus the unit can charge.
I understand your reasoning but I disagree that their referral to the unit is an all or nothing deal. To me it's no more inclusive than saying a group of people can't start a fire because one person in that group doesn't know how to. It only needs one person to for the geoup to succeed. And likewise, here only one model needs to be able eligible to charge.

At this point, I don't see anything in the rules that points to either interpretation being more correct than the other.

Roknar wrote:
Exactly, the unit consists of all models. One model doesn't fire a rapid fire weapon, that model can charge and thus the unit can charge.
I understand your reasoning but I disagree that their referral to the unit is an all or nothing deal. To me it's no more inclusive than saying a group of people can't start a fire because one person in that group doesn't know how to. It only needs one person to for the geoup to succeed. And likewise, here only one model needs to be able eligible to charge.

At this point, I don't see anything in the rules that points to either interpretation being more correct than the other.

Again, you're still trying to charge individual models and not the unit. This is not supported by the rules. That one model in the unit that can't charge means the unit can't charge.

Gotta agree with Ghaz on this one.
Assault moves are clearly done at the rate of the slowest model. I don't have my BRB right now, so I cannot find the exact page number, but if 1 model in the unit cannot charge, neither can the rest of the unit.

Can 'models" charge that have not fired heavy/rapid fire weapons? Sure, but they will charge at the speed of the slowest model in the unit, which in this case cannot charge, so neither can any other model models.
Also think of it this way: If 1 model in your unit successfully makes it's charge move, then the entire unit is considered to have charged, allowing every model to make pile-in moves and attack. So if the entire unit charged, so did the model that fired the Rapid-fire weapon, which we all agree it cannot do.

There really is no way to look at this situation that will allow you to fire Rapid-fire weapons and charge. Better get those Psykers out and roll on Biomancy if you want to get Relentless that badly

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Roknar wrote:
Exactly, the unit consists of all models. One model doesn't fire a rapid fire weapon, that model can charge and thus the unit can charge.
I understand your reasoning but I disagree that their referral to the unit is an all or nothing deal. To me it's no more inclusive than saying a group of people can't start a fire because one person in that group doesn't know how to. It only needs one person to for the geoup to succeed. And likewise, here only one model needs to be able eligible to charge.

At this point, I don't see anything in the rules that points to either interpretation being more correct than the other.

No.

Page 45 in the main rulebook:

:"Some units are disallowed from charging. Common reasons a unit is not allowed to declare a charge include:

The unit is already locked in close combat (pg 47)
The unit Ran in the Shooting phase (pg 38)
The unit has Gone to Ground (pg 38)
The unit shot Rapid Fire weapons, Salvo weapons, Ordnance weapons or Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase (pg 41-42)"

If a model in the unit fires a rapid fire weapon, the unit is considered to have fired a rapid fire weapon. It is an all or nothing. A tac squad doesn't get to charge if they all fire bolters except for a sergeant who fires a bolt pistol. If they had wanted to let the unit charge, they would have said the unit could charge but the models that fired Rapid Fire weapons could not move.

EDIT: To address Galef's point the last sentence on page 45, in the Roll Charge Range section, says "if a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model." Models not getting to move is different from models not getting to roll their normal move, so the speed of the uniit's charge would be zero, unless you want to claim that it's not two different rolls even though it's two different speeds. It's pretty obvious what they mean, though.

Take a unit of tactical marines. One throws a grenade, all the other fire their boltguns. The guy who threw the grenade used an assault weapon, and doesn't have the "no charge" restriction.
If you think that having a single model in the unit that can charge allows the whole unit to charge (even if it means that the guy who rapid fire are not allowed to move during the assault), then the above scenario would be common practice in pretty much every game. I think we can safely assumed that's not RAI.

RAW, doctortom's argument seems pretty clear to me.

The common reasons part is just an example and would indeed apply if the entire unit shot. I don't see that as conclusive evidence. And even then it says "fired weapons" as opposed to the unit fire "a" rapid fire weapon.
The part about moving at the slowest speed on the other hand would indeed stop the rest from charging.

I missed that, thanks.
I still believe that "the unit" doesn't necessarily mean all or nothing. It would stop them from charging, but not fighting once they pile in. All it does is stop them from reaching combat imo. I can't think of any scenario where that might matter but yea.

Its simple permission based.

The unit by default has permission to charge until it does something to take it away.

The moment it fires a gun that removes the permission to charge the whole unit looses permission.

Firing a assault weapon does not grant permission to charge, it just doesn't effect it. The argument that the guy shooting a pistol or whatever grants charge permission is flawed.

Thanks for clearing things up! I guess this is all the more reason why I think that the ability to equip Deathwatch Veterans with Shotguns and Boltguns is intentional.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
the ability to equip Deathwatch Veterans with Shotguns and Boltguns is intentional.

...unless we have other information (like an errata), EVERYTHING in a codex is most definitely understood to be intentional.

Roknar wrote:
The common reasons part is just an example and would indeed apply if the entire unit shot. I don't see that as conclusive evidence. And even then it says "fired weapons" as opposed to the unit fire "a" rapid fire weapon.
The part about moving at the slowest speed on the other hand would indeed stop the rest from charging.

I missed that, thanks.
I still believe that "the unit" doesn't necessarily mean all or nothing. It would stop them from charging, but not fighting once they pile in. All it does is stop them from reaching combat imo. I can't think of any scenario where that might matter but yea.

If someone said to you, "Have you driven cars before?" You wouldn't say, "No, I've only ever driven one car before." Perhaps it's a matter of language here, but I can tell you the use of the plural in this case does not actually specifically mean weapons in the plural.

It's very simple. Did the unit shoot Rapid Fire weapons, Salvo weapons, Ordnance weapons or Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase?

It fairly plainly doesn't have to have been the entire unit.

Roknar wrote:
The common reasons part is just an example and would indeed apply if the entire unit shot. I don't see that as conclusive evidence. And even then it says "fired weapons" as opposed to the unit fire "a" rapid fire weapon.

Based on THAT a Captain with a Boltgun would be able to charge after firing it as it's "a rapid fire weapon", not "rapid fire weapons". I wouldn't allow that as it clearly includes "I only have one RF weapon firing".