Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK i'm hoping to kick off a discussion for BA and whether the new supplement makes them any better and why you think that is?

From what I can gather so far it look's like it isn't much use apart from a few odd's and sod's. The decurion thing look's OK but is it really a, or any, benefit? Especially with the rule's being the same and not cumulative?

The Archangel's formation look's OK as well apart from the cost. Is it any better than what's available in exterminatus for example?

ASM went up in point's from what i hear, if in pod's, but they do get eviscerator's now. Does anyone think that's a good idea?

Vindicator's and Predator's got squadron rule's as did Baal's to some degree I believe. A formation may be involved for the Baal's if I'm not mistaken.

Lucifer strike force aux formation sound's fun. Does anyone else think this is where most joy is to be had with this update?

I just really want to hear other's opinion's on what seem's to be, IMO, a missed opportunity for GW to bring the BA in to the mid table of army's?

I feel missing the point's break for tac termie's and land speeder's etc is a, as i said above, a missed opportunity to re-invigorate the army itself but hey ho what do I know.

What does dakka think of it?

I'll be getting a look at it officially tomorrow, since a few of my friends play BA.

From what I've seen in leaks, there are several assault-from-deepstrike options, and I think those might be useful. BA want to be in combat and have difficulty getting there. If that mitigates that problem, it could be a great help.

As I mentioned in the other thread, there are quite a few formations that I'm interested in trying out. One of the best things about the new book for me is that the new formations are largely for models I already own. By the time I've tried everything I want to, we'll be in 8e

And since it's a "weaker" codex (relative to many of those that my friends play), I will often not feel restrained in abusing some the better psychic powers -- for example like electrodisplacement to get BA or allies into cc.

I'm currently looking at incorporating a standard CAD with the Golden Host formation.

My CAD (Used instead of the Baal Strikeforce as Ob-sec is a big deal here) is generally a Jump Pack Librarian coupled with a Librarian Dread in a drop pod (JP Librarian being the warlord normally)

Troops are a drop pod Tactical Squad (10 man) and Cassor the Damned along with a 5 man B/P and CCW scout squad with Camo Cloaks.

Elites are Death Company, Lemartes, and a Jump Pack Command Squad (for the Librarian to attach to if need-be)

Fast Attack: Jump pack assault squad w/ 2x meltaguns and sergeant w/ dual melta pistols.

Heavy Support: Storm Raven (starts the game T:1 on Skyshield) - either the Death Company ride in this with Lemartes, or the Librarian + Command Squad start here.

Fortification: Skyshield Landing Pad (With Ready for Takeoff upgrade)

With this, I will field the Golden Host formation with Dante and 2x squads of Sang Guard, each 5 models strong.

Hoping to have some good fun with this. Nothing earth shattering, but should provide a great thematic and interesting looking force on the tabletop.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

I'll use the whirlwind squadron and the grav cannon devs, and that's about it. Everything else in this book is trash. Par for the course, GW.

There's basically nothing in this book worth giving up obj sec for. Nothing.

Can you use captain karlean as a captain for the archangels demi co? or demi co? I want that reroll that karlean gives!

The warlord traits are decent, the relics are pretty meh (two handed and Str User WTF?).

Overall it's a fun-ish looking book. It more or less encourages armor Spam (the way I used to play my 7th BA anyway). I dig the Golden host, the armored aincents and the Scouting predator/raider one.

I mean seriously Gee-dubs, why can't our two handed weapons(glaives, relics etc) get a fething strength bonus like everyone else's? Any reason we don't get LSS'? Do they not fit the BA theme perfectly? And why do our goddamn demi companies trade obsec for a Warlord trait reroll? I mean seriously...

I'm taking by grav cannons and vehicle squadrons and AV 13 spam and settling for that. Seriously. Two grav cannon dev teams in a rhino are something else that legitimately draws fire from other units. And the bitter pill of having to focus down a 65 pt whirlwind from long range just to get rid of shred is nice too.

For me, the Demi-Company has a great selection of models I love (Tacticals and Assault Marines, my awesome Captain model) and looking at the Devestators and Dreadnought as the only tax units I'd prefer to skip, I'm happy with it, if only for the love of the army itself, not the rules. The new Zealot at half strength rule is great for my Tactical Squads.

Archangels Intervention Force, I doubt I'll ever leave home without it, same for the Lucifer Armoured Task Force, although it does mean I'll have to backtrack on my joke about Blood Angel Techmarines not existing. Love the rules for both formations.

The rest of the rules I'm okay with, some just don't interest me, like Grav-Cannons (I really love close combat.) My only major gripe is points wise, a lot of this stuff can't be fielded properly below 2000 points

There's no reason to use the demi-company. Because Red Thirst is not very good at all in 7th ed.

What irritates me are the bunk rules that could have EASILY been fixed. Most of them being on my favorite models.


And yea, red Thirst is pretty bad. Especially in a demi company that is rocking mostly non-combat, or crappy combat units...

This new/updated book is just pretty trash and not worth the money. The Golden Host is potentially neat. However, because you if you attach a sanguinary priest to a sanguinary guard unit for FNP and +1WS, the unit cannot charge the same turn they arrive from deep strike (see space marine Skyhammer FAQ answer).

The death company formation would be neat if the chaplain didn't also have the disordered charge restriction like the red thirst does. Or if it didn't have a mandatory jump pack and melta pistol included in his price.

It's both a much-needed improvement and a spectacular missed opportunity, characterised by inexplicable decisions, laziness, and outright fluff-breaking nonsense.

The biggest issues are the pointless demi-company formation and the insistence on disordered charges from deepstrike - the BA 'flavour' being represented by redundant and contradictory special rules.

Then you have annoyances like 1st company captain Karlaen not being available to the 1st company formation, or offering a command choice of a single IC who then can't join the vast majority of units without utterly breaking their formations.

Then there's the straight up antagonism, like the VV / Terminator points discrepancies (LS too...?), lack of errata even in ebook versions (scouts, dreads) and lazy copy-and-paste (librarian powers, incomplete armoury lists)

That said, there is still a lot of nice stuff, but it could so easily have been so much better. I don't mean from a power gamer perspective - I've no illusions about us not being 'the best' - but there are so many occasions where the thought process, or lack of, is apparent. We're not asking the world, just a little care and attention.

Seriously though, that demi-company.

Really? I've always found the Red Thirst to be awesome, bane of anything with Initative 4 or lower. Especially now with the ability to get stronger with the counter attack because of Zealot at half strength.

I (will) use the Demi-Company because I love the models in it, as well as the flexabiliy it provides to my army.

Red thirst won't you beat anything you couldn't beat before. That's the problem. TWC and Wraith don't care if you are init 5. And you don't care if tac marines fight back.

If you're charging TWC and Wraiths you're in for a bad time regardless, Vindicators and Preds can handle those guys


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or TH/SS Terminators, I've found if you want to bog down something with 2+/3++, charge it with something in 2+3++

Put the Terminators from the formation into Blood Angels Drop Pods. Turn 1 Deep Strike assault with Inertial Guidance System. Formation states the whole thing arrives at the same time.

 Runic wrote:
Put the Terminators from the formation into Blood Angels Drop Pods. Turn 1 Deep Strike assault with Inertial Guidance System. Formation states the whole thing arrives at the same time.

The interaction of transports and the new formation deployment special rules are one of the things we're waiting on clarification from GW for - DPs aren't a dedicated transport choice for either Terminator unit, mind, so you'd need a CAD / BSF with them.

With these kind of special rules though, I've always assumed that if any one unit can't meet the deployment criteria, the whole formation can't deploy - and so throwing drop pod assault into the mix causes all kinds of (fun) headaches.

Could the Archangel's formation in combination with allied Ravenwing be an idea? Move them up the board and turn 2 have them deepstrike using locator beacons from the bikes for accurate charges?

Again. not got the dex for either faction, just theory crafting

DS + charge termies are pretty neat. Might even justify taking Sanguinor or Corbulo.

I'm beginning to like the Angelic host now. Purely for a way to get Dante in. I usually run 5-7 SG so another 3-5 won't hurt too badly.

Other than that this now seem's to be no more than a side-grade to exterminatus.

diepotato47 wrote:
If you're charging TWC and Wraiths you're in for a bad time regardless, Vindicators and Preds can handle those guys


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or TH/SS Terminators, I've found if you want to bog down something with 2+/3++, charge it with something in 2+3++

TH/SS Terminators are pretty terrible against TWC. TWC have a high volume of attacks at I4 to break 2+ before the Terminators get to attack at I1. Terminators neither have quality (S10) or volume of attacks to dent TWC in return.

The annoying thing about the supplement is GW continuing to push BA as an assault army, but they still lag behind SW in assault power

GW doesn't understand how assault works.

Bartali wrote:

diepotato47 wrote:
If you're charging TWC and Wraiths you're in for a bad time regardless, Vindicators and Preds can handle those guys


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or TH/SS Terminators, I've found if you want to bog down something with 2+/3++, charge it with something in 2+3++

TH/SS Terminators are pretty terrible against TWC. TWC have a high volume of attacks at I4 to break 2+ before the Terminators get to attack at I1. Terminators neither have quality (S10) or volume of attacks to dent TWC in return.

The annoying thing about the supplement is GW continuing to push BA as an assault army, but they still lag behind SW in assault power

It's not just SW my friend. SW and Demonkin are assault armies that actually work.

Vanilla C:SM laugh at BA assault (in)ability, so do Orks, Bugs and CSM, KDK, Demons and SW. Literally the only assault based army BA can whomp in combat is DE and even then it would be a close maych.

There's no melee unit that would like to meet buffed up TWC without anything to deny their buffs. Even other TWC. So, there's no real use of comparing termies or really anything else in raw fight with them. Termies have other things going on for them. Namely, ability to show up anywhere and emidiately charge. While twc might have to waste a turn dealing with that rhino that blocks the way, termies can just deepstrike/droppod right where you need them (a bit more triky with ds but you get the idea).

 koooaei wrote:
There's no melee unit that would like to meet buffed up TWC without anything to deny their buffs. Even other TWC.

It's not just the TWC. Wulfen, Skyclaws Bikers combat dreads all the way down the line to grey hunters can perform in combat. I mean compare them to Sang Guatd, DC, Furiosos, and BA assault troops. Little if any competition between the armies.



I could go on comparing units from all the melee armies,but what's the point? BA are in the unfortunate lot of "identity crisis" armies. Like DE and to a limited extent, bugs. They don't know what they want to do because they suck balls at everything except close range shooting. Angels blade sort of helped them edge into the assault realm, but their original weaknesses (lack of survivability, too few attacks with not enough strength) still remain. Some of the formations would be pretty awesome if not for 1 or 2 glaring weaknesses that could in theory be fixed (but ya know... BA formations ).

Angels Blade was a refreshing supplement until I more thoroughly read it and realized it was a shoddy patchwork of copy/paste, missed opportunities and poorly thought out formations with a caveat or 2 that stops it from being awesome.



SW on the other hand, are a solid assault army, that can perform as intended with appropriate USRs, units and formations.

I don't think wolfen have 'appropriate' rules.

Also, i see no reason to not be happy with DC. Rage, Fearless, FNP, Furious Charge, jumppacks and all for relatively cheap. They're a strong unit for what it's worth.

You guyz sound like some form of eldar. You know, like when they say: "We've got banshees => our codex is fine". Instead you say "we don't have TWC => our codex is bad". You've got other stuff. Other good combinations that work in maelstorm. Furioso dreads, DC, HF marines, now charging termies, cheap FNP priests that add WS to boot. Remember, their cost is comparable to painboyz that have 6+ armor and ld7, FC across the board and it's a way better CT for most things rather than counter-attack, hell, even fast predators have their uses. And what about Codex: thunder wolf wolves and wolfen wolves with wolf wolves on wolves? Yep, that's their whole codex.

No complaints about DC, other than they're not nearly reliable enough to live up to the hype. They don't make the charge, they get wrecked.

Fragiosos are extremely hit or miss as well. More times than not, they've got a single turn to pull their weight because the next turn it'll be dead as dillinger guaranteed (unless you spam them). And those cheap priests take up HQ slots, in an army that revolves around HQ's and elites. HF tac marines? Seriously? I mean at least there is an actual tac squad in existence that knows what it wants to do. Unfortunately, it's very bad at it. Heavy flamers sound nice until you realize everything bud DE, IG and Orks (the other gak tier armies oddly...) just laugh them off.

FC being better than CTs? Please tell me you're joking... if you aren't i can't think of a single way to reply that won't get me at least a temporary ban so I'll just go with a nose-crushing facepalm instead.

No disrespect man, but you sound like a clinician telling a working girl "Don't worry. You don't have AIDS. Syphilis, herpes and UTI yes, but at least it's not AIDS.".

BA do work amazingly great after you've been playing footslogging orks for 5 years ;D

I've had success running this units vs pretty competitive lists like centstars, iron hands with knights and eldar with WK, scatbikes and seer council. Sure, they're not even close to auto-win but not an auto-loose at the same time.

I don't doubt it.

Oddly enough BA can spam hard counter solutions for some of the circuit builds (melta for IKs, bodies and dreads for cent stars, templates for scat bikes). The sad part is where they have to make a TAC list or they hard counter a certain parts of an opponents list, but then the shoddy-ness of the rest of the BA List bottoms out and costs you the game.

As I've said before, with a few small tweaks, BA could be a solidly mid-tier book. Probably still wouldnt be able to hang with Khorne and Furries, but an immensely more fun/satisfying Marine army to play. Alas gee-dubs' "design team"... *sigh*


Oh and I absolutely agree with you on the wulfens double move result, and their "death blow" monkey business is one of the dumbest rules in the game. That is saying quite a bit too.