Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Need someone to check the math on the Coherian Host inside of a revenge formation:

Rules: Harlequins have a 5++ base. Revenge gives a re-roll on a save of 1. Coherian host gives a pseudo FNP on a 6+ (except it ignores ID and D weapon attacks!)

Math: (1/3) + ((1/6)(1/3)) + (1/6) =.56. ===> In other words your 33% base chance to save is a 56% if a troupe is part of both the Coherian host AND Revenge formation. An increase of ~23%, or essentially a 4.5++ Save.
Coherian alone: (1/3) + (1/6) = .5 ==> 50% or 4++

Just want to make sure that math is correct, as I'm by no means a math major and there are a few easy errors to make in there.

Background: Getting back into the game after a long hiatus, and want to run space elf ninja clowns. Trying to figure out if running a full Revenge formation is worth all the taxes (don't think it will be). As noted above 4.5++ is nice, but it will only apply to Coherian units, and requires I take 2 more DJs than I want, a Solitaire I'm ambivilant about, and a unit of JBs I don't want. If I'm doing the math right, the increase from Coherian -> Coherian + Revenge is a very marginal upgrade in suitability for several hundred points of tax in an already tax heavy army. Just wanting to make sure this math is right before I write off the Revenge formation as a tax heavy monster who's buffs don't come near to making up for the wads of suck you're forced to take....again.

Well, a unit can only be a part of one formation, so you can't double dip the Coherian units with a Revenge formation.

I don't understand how you could be part of both formations.

 Dash2021 wrote:
Coherian alone: (1/3) + (1/6) = .5 ==> 50% or 4++

You can't sum probabilities like that. The 1/6 from the pseudo FNP is only applied if you fail the save, so it's (1/3) + (2/3)*(1/6) = 0.44.
You can see that otherwise, a 4+ save then a 4+ FNP would give an invincible unit with your formula (because you would have 1/2 + 1/2), whereas it saves 75% of the wounds (1/2 + (1/2)*(1/2) = 0.75).

While you can take the Death Masque units in the Revenge, you cannot take the Host and Revenge in the same formation. They are two separate formations.

However as someone who has run the Coherian host I can promise that the extra 6+ has saved my ass multiple times, probably more then it should've. Not to mention Eldrad is a great force multiplier. I've been running the host plus the Heroes path + Dark Artisan coven formation in 1500 and it's been working for me.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
While you can take the Death Masque units in the Revenge, you cannot take the Host and Revenge in the same formation. They are two separate formations.

However as someone who has run the Coherian host I can promise that the extra 6+ has saved my ass multiple times, probably more then it should've. Not to mention Eldrad is a great force multiplier. I've been running the host plus the Heroes path + Dark Artisan coven formation in 1500 and it's been working for me.

Kind of off-topic, but what do you roll on with Eldrad?
Runes of fate and telepathy are a bit meh I think (expect for invisibility of course). Santic is better I find, and Eldrad can mitigate perils pretty well, but it's more expensive in a way (having to use warp charges or rerolls to remove perils, which would not have occurred on non-sanctic disciplines).

I've been rolling runes of fate with a single roll on telepathy. I know I'm losing out on pychic focus but when rolling runes of fate there is usually something worth swapping for guide and with telepathy I always take shriek. Guide, Doom, Fortune and Eldrich Storm are great for Harlequins and psychic shriek works alongside mask and coven.

fresus wrote:
I don't understand how you could be part of both formations.

You can't sum probabilities like that. The 1/6 from the pseudo FNP is only applied if you fail the save, so it's (1/3) + (2/3)*(1/6) = 0.44.

Just to finish off the theoretical math:
Coherian = 0.44 as shown above
Revenge = (1/3) + (1/6)*(1/3) = 0.39

So, Coherian gives you a better overall save in a direct comparison.

Soon as I was adding multiple probabilities I knew I needed to have someone check it, cause the math seemed a bit wonky. Thanks for the checks.

Interesting. I was under the impression that you could take the coherian as part of your Revenge formation, ergo keeping coherian buffs. I'm assuming same applies for the masque detachment as well (picking up the book tomorrow, so don't have exact rules to work with). Not sure that it'll be worth while with the list I have in mind to run coherian, as I'd like to have a large troupe squad. As nice as an EW FNP eldrad would be to run with the quins, the two smaller squads seem very awkward without a transport or access to shadow seers. I've got other plans for the DJ, so that'd leave them very literally hanging in the wind waiting to get knocked over by a stiff breeze. May just stick to Eldar CAD and Harley Masque detachment instead, subbing in the DJ +/- the bikes.

 Dash2021 wrote:
Soon as I was adding multiple probabilities I knew I needed to have someone check it, cause the math seemed a bit wonky. Thanks for the checks.

Interesting. I was under the impression that you could take the coherian as part of your Revenge formation, ergo keeping coherian buffs. I'm assuming same applies for the masque detachment as well (picking up the book tomorrow, so don't have exact rules to work with). Not sure that it'll be worth while with the list I have in mind to run coherian, as I'd like to have a large troupe squad. As nice as an EW FNP eldrad would be to run with the quins, the two smaller squads seem very awkward without a transport or access to shadow seers. I've got other plans for the DJ, so that'd leave them very literally hanging in the wind waiting to get knocked over by a stiff breeze. May just stick to Eldar CAD and Harley Masque detachment instead, subbing in the DJ +/- the bikes.

Both Coherian and Revenge are separate formations, and neither Death Masque nor Codex: Harlequins has a giant meta-formation that allows two formation bonuses. So, unfortunately, you get to pick either or (for bonus at least). Inriam's Spectre and the Blades of Fate rules are totally worth running, but the Troupes are a little odd. Their inherent bonuses (run + charge or run + shoot) would make them interesting to put in a different formation, but their static wargear is something to really analyze in whatever roll you are planning to stick them in.

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:
Soon as I was adding multiple probabilities I knew I needed to have someone check it, cause the math seemed a bit wonky. Thanks for the checks.

Interesting. I was under the impression that you could take the coherian as part of your Revenge formation, ergo keeping coherian buffs. I'm assuming same applies for the masque detachment as well (picking up the book tomorrow, so don't have exact rules to work with). Not sure that it'll be worth while with the list I have in mind to run coherian, as I'd like to have a large troupe squad. As nice as an EW FNP eldrad would be to run with the quins, the two smaller squads seem very awkward without a transport or access to shadow seers. I've got other plans for the DJ, so that'd leave them very literally hanging in the wind waiting to get knocked over by a stiff breeze. May just stick to Eldar CAD and Harley Masque detachment instead, subbing in the DJ +/- the bikes.

Both Coherian and Revenge are separate formations, and neither Death Masque nor Codex: Harlequins has a giant meta-formation that allows two formation bonuses. So, unfortunately, you get to pick either or (for bonus at least). Inriam's Spectre and the Blades of Fate rules are totally worth running, but the Troupes are a little odd. Their inherent bonuses (run + charge or run + shoot) would make them interesting to put in a different formation, but their static wargear is something to really analyze in whatever roll you are planning to stick them in.

I had assumed from the first posts. I was originally under the, mistaken, impression GW had done us a solid by making the detachment slotable in either the Masque or Revenge slots ala the Eldar mix-n-match formations. Should have known better, but you can't blame me for being optimistic.

I'm not sold on the Blades...yet. 2 man bike squads are pretty easy to blow off the board even with a 4+ re-rollable. Spectre is likely going to sit with a group of Dark Reapers and a Shadow seer for an unmovable fire base. 2 Str 5 AP3 re-rollable jink ignoring shots + shroud +/- Veil is an anti meta powerhouse.

 Dash2021 wrote:

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:
Soon as I was adding multiple probabilities I knew I needed to have someone check it, cause the math seemed a bit wonky. Thanks for the checks.

Interesting. I was under the impression that you could take the coherian as part of your Revenge formation, ergo keeping coherian buffs. I'm assuming same applies for the masque detachment as well (picking up the book tomorrow, so don't have exact rules to work with). Not sure that it'll be worth while with the list I have in mind to run coherian, as I'd like to have a large troupe squad. As nice as an EW FNP eldrad would be to run with the quins, the two smaller squads seem very awkward without a transport or access to shadow seers. I've got other plans for the DJ, so that'd leave them very literally hanging in the wind waiting to get knocked over by a stiff breeze. May just stick to Eldar CAD and Harley Masque detachment instead, subbing in the DJ +/- the bikes.

Both Coherian and Revenge are separate formations, and neither Death Masque nor Codex: Harlequins has a giant meta-formation that allows two formation bonuses. So, unfortunately, you get to pick either or (for bonus at least). Inriam's Spectre and the Blades of Fate rules are totally worth running, but the Troupes are a little odd. Their inherent bonuses (run + charge or run + shoot) would make them interesting to put in a different formation, but their static wargear is something to really analyze in whatever roll you are planning to stick them in.

I had assumed from the first posts. I was originally under the, mistaken, impression GW had done us a solid by making the detachment slotable in either the Masque or Revenge slots ala the Eldar mix-n-match formations. Should have known better, but you can't blame me for being optimistic.

I'm not sold on the Blades...yet. 2 man bike squads are pretty easy to blow off the board even with a 4+ re-rollable. Spectre is likely going to sit with a group of Dark Reapers and a Shadow seer for an unmovable fire base. 2 Str 5 AP3 re-rollable jink ignoring shots + shroud +/- Veil is an anti meta powerhouse.

I have run Dark Reapers alongside Harlequins several times, and I am definitely sold on them. The question I have for you is how many reapers? I typically run them in an aspect host for the BS5, why means an Exarch is mandatory. I love the Reaper exarch (esp. with the missile launcher) but he drives your cost up, and I am always scraping the points limit whenever I build a Harley/CWE list. I've added a seer to a reaper unit for veil in the past, and while good in theory, the amount of shooting a small reaper unit puts out is not really sufficient to justify the seer as a bodyguard. ymmv, but that's why I'm curious about the number of reapers in the unit.

4 Reapers and the Exarch is fine with the formation, as the BS5 increases the damage output dramatically.

Also remember that the Exarch is another wound for those points and that DOES help the squad survive against returning fire.

The exarch is also the most points effective per shot if you leave him with the standard gun - he gets 2 shots/wounds for 40 points while 2 reapers are 2 shots/wounds at 60 points.

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
The exarch is also the most points effective per shot if you leave him with the standard gun - he gets 2 shots/wounds for 40 points while 2 reapers are 2 shots/wounds at 60 points.

You're a little off there. He gets 3 shots (thanks to his special rule) for 40 points, which is 13.3333 points per shot. A standard reaper gets 2 shots for 25 points, which is 12.5 points per shot, so in terms of shooting, you actually get more bang for the points with the regular reaper. Once you factor in the additional wound and BS, then it changes the story a bit.

Ahhh, I was thinking the starshot upgrade, my mistake.

 Asmodas wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:
Soon as I was adding multiple probabilities I knew I needed to have someone check it, cause the math seemed a bit wonky. Thanks for the checks.

Interesting. I was under the impression that you could take the coherian as part of your Revenge formation, ergo keeping coherian buffs. I'm assuming same applies for the masque detachment as well (picking up the book tomorrow, so don't have exact rules to work with). Not sure that it'll be worth while with the list I have in mind to run coherian, as I'd like to have a large troupe squad. As nice as an EW FNP eldrad would be to run with the quins, the two smaller squads seem very awkward without a transport or access to shadow seers. I've got other plans for the DJ, so that'd leave them very literally hanging in the wind waiting to get knocked over by a stiff breeze. May just stick to Eldar CAD and Harley Masque detachment instead, subbing in the DJ +/- the bikes.

Both Coherian and Revenge are separate formations, and neither Death Masque nor Codex: Harlequins has a giant meta-formation that allows two formation bonuses. So, unfortunately, you get to pick either or (for bonus at least). Inriam's Spectre and the Blades of Fate rules are totally worth running, but the Troupes are a little odd. Their inherent bonuses (run + charge or run + shoot) would make them interesting to put in a different formation, but their static wargear is something to really analyze in whatever roll you are planning to stick them in.

I had assumed from the first posts. I was originally under the, mistaken, impression GW had done us a solid by making the detachment slotable in either the Masque or Revenge slots ala the Eldar mix-n-match formations. Should have known better, but you can't blame me for being optimistic.

I'm not sold on the Blades...yet. 2 man bike squads are pretty easy to blow off the board even with a 4+ re-rollable. Spectre is likely going to sit with a group of Dark Reapers and a Shadow seer for an unmovable fire base. 2 Str 5 AP3 re-rollable jink ignoring shots + shroud +/- Veil is an anti meta powerhouse.

I have run Dark Reapers alongside Harlequins several times, and I am definitely sold on them. The question I have for you is how many reapers? I typically run them in an aspect host for the BS5, why means an Exarch is mandatory. I love the Reaper exarch (esp. with the missile launcher) but he drives your cost up, and I am always scraping the points limit whenever I build a Harley/CWE list. I've added a seer to a reaper unit for veil in the past, and while good in theory, the amount of shooting a small reaper unit puts out is not really sufficient to justify the seer as a bodyguard. ymmv, but that's why I'm curious about the number of reapers in the unit.

3-4 with exarch is where I land. Even without the BS5, 9-11 S5 shots re-rolling against skimmers should either wipe or cripple a JB squad a turn. At the very least I think the DJ and cover is an easy body guard, and has the ability to hit similar targets as well. Adding a seer is situational and you need to adjust tactics as needed. Getting off veil is a great way to force your normally cagey JB opponents to get w/in firing range or simply lose a JB squad a turn. This allows assaults with the rest of your quins that normally would never happen, as your opponent would simply turbo boost away when you got close.


This is a bias of mine though. IMO, Seers are the diamond in the otherwise pretty rough harlequin book. Veil is just so good as a defensive weapon it can make otherwise fragile gun lines a swing unit in your army.

Spectre plus the blades is hilarious! 2+ rerollable jink...