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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Another one! I've not yet finished it, but I'm up through Venomthropes Pyrovores.

You can find it here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/20 16:58:41


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




A lot of excitement definitely, especially in dramatically increasing the number of biomorphs and upgrades, and spreading out access to them. However you haven't seemed to take a look at the actual needs of the army. Tyranid Warriors are already considered bad and you've nerfed them heavily by cutting their synapse Range in half.

You should take a read through the 7th Ed Codex thread I've got running, some of the feedback I've received from other people would apply to you as well, and its made my book significantly better.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

I confess, I don't actually play Nids. This is just a side project.

But sure, I'll take a gander!

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Hooray for Tyranid stuff. You have a lot of cool ideas in here, but I feel some of the rules could be polished up, and some of the pricing seems really off.

For starters, you're probably spending a ton of time and energy rewriting and tweaking those wargear lists each time. I recommend breaking the various wargear options up into armory categories (dakka biomorphs, melee biomorphs, special biomorphs, tail biomorphs, etc.) and then listing three prices for each biomorph. The first price being the cost for a single wound non-MC, the second being the cost for a multi-wound non-MC, and the third being the cost for an MC. That way, you can adjust the cost of a biomorph based on the model's power and survivability without having to tweak each one for every individual unit. You can just say, "this unit has access to X, Y, and Z armories."

On a related note, many of your pieces of wargear seemed ridiculously pricey for some units. Charging 5 points per hormagaunt to give it a 6+ invul save with a synaptic shield? Ouch!

Jumping over to the special rules...

Shadow in the Warp: The thing about SitW is that it's supposed to be the tyranids' psyker defense that works by shutting down their casting. What's more, it's meant to be some of the scariest psyker defense in the game. The leadership thing is a leftover from the days when psychic powers worked off of leadership. Making it affect non-psykers is nice for fear and psychic shriek, but those are relatively niche applications that don't really match its fluff or intended awesomeness. My personal fix for SitW? Psykers take a -1 to all psychic tests (normally harnessing the warp on a 5+ instead of a 4+). Keeping the leadership debuff is reasonable and fluffy though.

Synapse: ATSKNF is really meant to be a special snowflake marine rule. I'm guessing you wanted to represent the swarm being able to behave in a reasonable, tactical fashion, but I'm not a fan of swiping someone else's special stuff. Plus, Fearless works perfectly well most of the time.

BIOMORPHS
Lash Whips: I don't like that entangling is a random d3. It's another die roll to remember, plus it requires you pause and recalculate things. A WS penalty is a neat option to have access to, but I'd probably prefer to the higher initiative most of the time. These are minor nitpicks.

Crushing Claws: I like these changes.

Bludgeoning Fist: I also like this. Sort of a tyranid power maul.

Lancing Spear: Sure, though this "power weapon but not" thing is starting to feel slightly un-tyranidly.

Axe Claws: See above. Part of the fun of playing aliens from outside the galaxy is feeling distinct from other factions.

Biting Tendrils: I like these a lot! Fluffy, cool, and useful.

Shocking pseudopods: These seem perhaps a bit too good when you get your full number of attacks with them. A couple hormagaunts could reliably wrecks most vehicles with these. Consider restricting them to one attack per model (making them grenades basically) or having the haywire only kick in on a 6 or something.

Amorphous Pseudopods: This one gets complicated in the wrong situations. It triggers on a succesful hit, but its purpose is to inflict extra wounds. So you would need to keep track of successful hits that wound and that don't wound separately and resolve them separately in case you're fighting multi-wound models or models with a better save. Maybe have this trigger after a wound goes unsaved instead? Or take a page from the eldar book and have it wound against initiative rather than toughness?

Toxin Spike VS Barbed Stinger: Tails are pretty much only an MC thing right? MCs will wound most non-MCs on a 2 already. Even when they don't wound on 2s, they're wounding anything T5 on 3s and usually rerolling if they have any sort of poison. Therefore, the Toxin Spike and Barbed Stinger are mostly useful as a source of an extra poison attack. Therefore these tail options are mostly useful against MCs (because those are the things affected by poison that the MCs aren't already wounding on 2s). MCs already have AP 2, so the difference in tail AP is moot. Even if tail attacks weren't AP2, the difference between AP5 and AP6 is mostly moot when you're using these tails against their main target: MCs. Some enemy MCs will be toughness 7 or 8 or even higher, which the Barbed Stinger only wounds on a 4+ while the Toxin Spike wounds on a 2+. This is my very long-winded way of saying that I see no reason to ever take a barbed stinger over a toxin spike. What is the barbed stinger's niche?

Toxic Miasma: Ouch. This would be okay against marines, but now it means that Malanthropes and Venomthropes that survive a single round against orks or gaunt swarms will now basically kill off 2/3rds of all orks still in the combat. This seems way too good in fairly common situations.

Mucous trail: Seems fine. Have you considered rewriting it to simply be defensive grenades? Technically, this gives you a blinding shooting attack (at strength 1), but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Then you could field slimy slug MC's!

Synaptic Shield: Neat!

Thickened Carapace: Yes please! Though ironically, this may make MC's *less* durable in some games as common forms of anti-MC (rending, plasma, melta, lascannons, etc.) already ignore their 3+, and grav weapons will now be more effective. I still like having the options.

Occular Spectrum: Nifty!

UNITS

Hive Tyrant: Master of Biomorphs is a neat rule, but I'm having a little trouble picturing the situation in which you would use it. If I already have some sort of strength enhancing biomorph, won't I usually just use that anyway? After all, the tyrant is already AP2 and, iirc, ignores unwieldy by virtue of being an MC. He also doesn't have much need for most unwiedly weapons because he's AP2 innatley. So he could just take bludgeoning fists or whatever and avoid taking things like axe claws all together. What would be the scenario in which I would use this special rule? I'm not knocking it. This rule sounds like it should let me do something awesome. I'm just not sure what that something is. D:

Warriors: If I give warriors wings, don't I basically eliminate the niche of shrikes? Or are these meant to be the new version of shrikes? Shrikes have a worse save but are otherwise just warriors with wings.)

Genestealers: I'm afraid having more options for expensive gear really doesn't do anything to fix this popular-but-underpowered unit. The broodlord can take some neat options, but taking expensive upgrades just makes genestealers even more expensive when they die. Genestealers suffer from being too expensive for their survivaiblity already, lacking assault grenades, and having upgrades that are extremely expensive when applied to a whole unit. I don't think your changes really fix any of these issues. :(

Gaunts: Same criticisms as warriors and genestealers. Wings make them redundant with their fast attack counterparts. If that's intentional, no worries. The upgrades are probably too expensive for what they do in many cases. Mixing and matching certain upgrades (mucous trail) is useful and reasonable for the points cost, but tracking a bunch of individual upgrades as you remove models seems like a pain. Gaunts are meant to be swarms of mostly-identical critters. I feel your rules encourage a weird sort of "specialist gaunt squad" where you have cheap bodies up front, mucous trails in the back, and a handful of slightly upgraded guys in the middle to do damage. Which is a lot of micromanagement for the default spammable bodies of the swarm.

Zoanthropes: Their invul saves got weaker under these rules, but no other criticisms here.

Venomthropes look fine.


I hope all that is readable. It's late here, and I've had a full day. XD


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/20 05:43:42



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Thank you for the in-depth response! As stated above, I am not a Nids player, so I don't know exactly what the issues and such are.

Yes, I gave the Nids Power Weapons (in mutated body form) but those are basic options that Nids are lacking, so I didn't see much reason NOT to give them to the space bugs.

I think I'll make the Shocking Pseudopods one attack only on little gribblies, but multiple attacks on the big 'uns.

Think it's worth keeping the Amorphous Pods, and if so, how would you fix them?

Tail Biomorphs do NOT benefit from the unit's rules. So they don't get Smash, for instance. Does that explain it?

How would you change Toxic Miasma? I want it to be always on.

Mucous Trail is actually more powerful than Defensive Grenades. (Except for Vanguard Veterans. But that's a niche case.)

Master of Biomorphs... I knew I had a reason for that. Something like Shocking Pseudopods on a Dreadnought and Amorphous on a Dreadknight? I dunno. I had a reason, I just can't remember it.

Yeah, I figure just allowing Warriors to take wings is a replacement for Shrikes. Same for Gargoyles-they won't be appearing in this updated fandex.

HEY! I gave Genestealers assault grenades! They can take Flesh Hooks! But, more to the point, how would you cost them?

I wanted you to really be able to customize your gribblies. Though do read carefully-most biomorphs require the WHOLE UNIT take them.

Zoanthropes can now nab a 3+ armor, to make up for their weakened invuln save. Should I drop the price, though?

Thank you again for your in-depth response. I'll probably start adding more units soon.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

I didn't go through everything but Instinctive Behaviour being left unchanged is not good, I hate the way this gimps the army.

Variable Synapse range sounds cool but if the range gets too short on some units it vastly decreases their utility.

As others mentioned, Shadow in the Warps current set up is because it's a 6th ed codex and where psychic powers worked differently, definitely needs to be changed.

Tyranids don't really need Power Weapons, we already have Rending Claws and Bone Swords, both of which I'd say were better than power weapons anyway.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Imateria wrote:
I didn't go through everything but Instinctive Behaviour being left unchanged is not good, I hate the way this gimps the army.

Variable Synapse range sounds cool but if the range gets too short on some units it vastly decreases their utility.

As others mentioned, Shadow in the Warps current set up is because it's a 6th ed codex and where psychic powers worked differently, definitely needs to be changed.

Tyranids don't really need Power Weapons, we already have Rending Claws and Bone Swords, both of which I'd say were better than power weapons anyway.


I'll bump up the Synapse range on most things, then.

Bumped up Synapse range on everything but Zoanthropes, and added the next two units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/20 16:59:07


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 JNAProductions wrote:
Thank you for the in-depth response! As stated above, I am not a Nids player, so I don't know exactly what the issues and such are.

Yes, I gave the Nids Power Weapons (in mutated body form) but those are basic options that Nids are lacking, so I didn't see much reason NOT to give them to the space bugs.

I think I'll make the Shocking Pseudopods one attack only on little gribblies, but multiple attacks on the big 'uns.

Think it's worth keeping the Amorphous Pods, and if so, how would you fix them?

Tail Biomorphs do NOT benefit from the unit's rules. So they don't get Smash, for instance. Does that explain it?

How would you change Toxic Miasma? I want it to be always on.

Mucous Trail is actually more powerful than Defensive Grenades. (Except for Vanguard Veterans. But that's a niche case.)

Master of Biomorphs... I knew I had a reason for that. Something like Shocking Pseudopods on a Dreadnought and Amorphous on a Dreadknight? I dunno. I had a reason, I just can't remember it.

Yeah, I figure just allowing Warriors to take wings is a replacement for Shrikes. Same for Gargoyles-they won't be appearing in this updated fandex.

HEY! I gave Genestealers assault grenades! They can take Flesh Hooks! But, more to the point, how would you cost them?

I wanted you to really be able to customize your gribblies. Though do read carefully-most biomorphs require the WHOLE UNIT take them.

Zoanthropes can now nab a 3+ armor, to make up for their weakened invuln save. Should I drop the price, though?

Thank you again for your in-depth response. I'll probably start adding more units soon.


Power Weapons: I'm not really against their inclusion because I like Tyranids to have options. I will, however, point out that the reason one would hypothetically exclude an option reminiscent of an imperial option is to promote a sense of distinct identity between factions. Theoretically, tyranids could biomorph an entire army to be functionally identical to guardsmen or marines, but then you may as well not bother having a distinct tyranid faction in the first place. Not that you're robbing them of identity here. I'm just tossing out the design concept as a thing to bear in mind.

Shocking Pseudopods: What qualifies as a "little" gribbly? A single tyranid warrior has decent odds of wrecking a rhino all by himself with shocking pseudopods. MCs will sometimes prefer not to use the shocking pseudopods at all because their high strength and Smash increase their odds of getting an explodes result.

Amorphous Pseudopods: The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of it being a weapon that wounds against initiative instead of toughness. It makes units better against low initiative things like orks, 'crons, and riptides. I'd probably keep the -1 strength part. The main risk with doing it this way is that it might make poison a bit less useful as an option. On the other hand, amorphous pseudopods would be weak agaisnt high initiative things like eldar and daemon princes, so maybe that works out after all.

Tails: Hmm. I'd still take a toxin spike 9 times out of 10. The barbed stinger ignores 5+ armor, but anything with a tail weapon isn't going to be struggling against 5+ armor save units like guardsmen and guardians anyway. The poison spike gives you more utility against potentially problematic units like MCs.

Toxic Miasma: If you want it to be constantly on, consider limiting its range to base-to-base and having it trigger at the end of the initiative 1 step of the assault phase. That way, you aren't killing off huge swaths of the enemy unless they've had time to surround you completely and then failed to kill you. This is still potentially nasty on durable MCs though.

Mucus Trail: Fair point.

Genestealers: Fair point on the grenades. As for costing them, I really feel like they should start off with a points cost similar to a daemonette. They have a similar number of attacks with rending. The daemonette trades stealth for an invul save. The daemonette deepstrikes instead of infiltrating. They're reasonably similar. I think 10 points per stealer is reasonable. You've already included scything talons on them rather than making it optional, so 11 points would probably be fine. Upgrades for genestealers should rarely cost more than 1 point. Maybe 2 points if it's really good. Upgrades like mucous trail that benefit the whole unit but can be taken on a single model can cost a bit more.

Little Gribblies: Ah. I overlooked the whole unit part. In that case, I think most of the "whole unit" options will probably never be taken. :( Even if you lowered something like synaptic shield or mucous trail to 1 point per model, the use they get out of such options is too limited to be worth the points cost. Gaunts are models that you take in droves and throw at the enemy as a tarpit or bullet catcher. You only really give them upgrades if you have a specific job in mind for them (like MC-hunting with toxin sacs). Of course, those upgrade options don't really work well in modern 40k which is why you don't see them often. As much as I like customizable tyranids, I kind of feel like there should be less micro-management of gaunts. They aren't really intended to be heavily specialized.

Zoanthropes: The ability to take a 3+ armor save offsets the nerf somewhat, but armor saves (that you have to buy) are strictly worse than invul saves. You've given them some cool options, but you've also nerfed their synapse range and invul saves. So yes, definitely lower the cost of this semi-rarely used unit if you really want to keep these nerfs. But really, I'd probably just prefer you didn't nerf them in the first place. Zoanthropes work reasonably well as they are in the main codex. Also, they really should have 12" synapse; they're floating brains designed to channel the will of the hive mind.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Imateria wrote:
I didn't go through everything but Instinctive Behaviour being left unchanged is not good, I hate the way this gimps the army.

Variable Synapse range sounds cool but if the range gets too short on some units it vastly decreases their utility.

As others mentioned, Shadow in the Warps current set up is because it's a 6th ed codex and where psychic powers worked differently, definitely needs to be changed.

Tyranids don't really need Power Weapons, we already have Rending Claws and Bone Swords, both of which I'd say were better than power weapons anyway.


I'll bump up the Synapse range on most things, then.

Bumped up Synapse range on everything but Zoanthropes, and added the next two units.


See above. Zoanthropes should be extremely good at synapse.

Variable synapse isn't really a problem in my book since it already exists in the form of the dominion power and the norn crown relic. It also isn't really all that interesting an addition to the rules though. Synapse being 12" almost all the time is easy to remember. Nerfing things to 9" or less synapse just forces 'nids to group up even more than they do now. Extending the range beyond 12" too often makes synapse less important because it's easier to maintain. A flat 12" synapse range outside of niche cases is fine in my book.

The new units seem fine. Raveners were already good(in as much as anything other than a flyrant is good). Haruspex are pretty okay already. Giving these things more options doesn't really fix any of their problems, but it doesn't create new ones either. The pricing still seems off on the upgrades though. 15 points is a bit much for a 6+ invul save on a haruspex. At 5 points, I'd still be mulling over whether or not to spend those points on something else.

I'm of a mixed mind on your pyrovores. If you weren't already aware, pyrovores are considered one of the worst untits in the codex because they aren't especially durable or hard-hitting, have to get close to do anything (usually requiring a tyranocite to be delivered), and mostly specialize in ignoring cover saves in an army that wants to get into melee anyway. Your inclusion of a wing option for them would make them somewhat better. However, I'm of a mixed mind about that level of customization. They're basically fire-friendly versions of the organic artillery that is the biovore. Having something that fat and heavy-looking flying feels a bit odd. Part of me really likes the customization, but another part of me feels that this robs them of their identity somewhat. Also, you should really fix their problematic "explode on everyone on the table when you die" rule while you're at it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/20 18:44:27



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Shocking Pods-Non-Monstrous Creatures now only get one attack with them. Still devastating on MCs or in groups, but no longer will you have one Warrior taking out a Land Raider.

Amorphous Pods-GENIUS! I'll take that.

Base to base makes sense. I'll make that adjustment.

Stealers... Hrm. I'll think it over.

Little Gribblies will see a points reduction in some things... Later. When I figure stuff out.

Zoanthropes are, to my knowledge, far and away one of the top units in the Nids' Dex. I think a minor nerf is okay. Part of that is my design goals-I want these guys to go toe-to-toe with stuff like Grey Knights and come out on top 50% of the time. I'm not aiming to make this a top-tier codex.

You know, I think it really, really shows that I just don't play Nids. I don't even know what a Pyrovore looks like.

However, I am going to take a break from this rewrite for some time. I've got some ideas for a Nurgle Daemonkin 'Dex, and being a Nurgle player myself, I think my time might be a bit better spent working on that.

So, for now, I'll be ceasing work on this. (Unless my buddy Nico nags me enough. )

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
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