Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Question is, if I have a squad with several Independent Charachters attached, and they all have scout, can my scout redeply allow these characters to leave the squad? I know about the whole can only leave/join duringthe movement phase thing but then how can you deploy characters attached in the first place then?

Was just wondering about usingit to boost some cheap MSU guys forward andaway from each other.

You only have permission to leave a unit in the movement phase

The fact that ICs have a specific permission to be deployed joined to a unit doesn't change this.

Characters have specific permission to start the game attached to a unit. They do not have permission to leave during Scout, and Scout isnt a movement phase so you cannot leave.

It is, however, a 'redeployment' - can ICs be 'redeployed' within 6" and join a different unit? Since they're still deploying?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is, however, a 'redeployment' - can ICs be 'redeployed' within 6" and join a different unit? Since they're still deploying?

It's a re-reployment after you are already deployed. The different unit has already deployed at a different time and as such, you cannot "re-deploy" the IC to that unit as it volates the rule for deploying an IC with a unit at the same time.

I believe Unit1126PLL [DCM] is correct: a scout move is not exactly a move, it's specifically referred to as a redeployment, and the IC rules say that you can start in a unit by being deployed in unit coherency with it. You can leave or join a unit only in the Movement phase, but here we are talking about deployment. So yes, I think you can redeploy ICs and have them leave the unit.

@djdarknoise, what part of the rules forbids that? A re-deployment is exactly like a deployment, just done at a later time, but it should follow all the rules for deployment. And the rules say that once you deploy (and, therefore, re-deploy as well) an IC in unit coherency, then he is part of that unit.

Teschio wrote:
@djdarknoise, what part of the rules forbids that? A re-deployment is exactly like a deployment, just done at a later time, but it should follow all the rules for deployment. And the rules say that once you deploy (and, therefore, re-deploy as well) an IC in unit coherency, then he is part of that unit.

More to the point, what allows you to change which unit an IC is attached to during Deployment?

Answer: Nothing in the rulebook, and only the good graces of your opponent.

@ Charistoph, the thing is, you do not DECLARE that an IC is attached to a unit before or during deployment. He is not part of it, it can only join it if you deploy it within 2" (btw, this is the reason why a Scout IC does not confer Scout to the unit he joins: because he only becomes part of the unit AFTER deployment). You simply do NOT "attach" an IC, you make him part of a unit by DEPLOYING it in coherency. Therefore, if you re-DEPLOY him, you can move him around, since he is not part of the unit.

I would say no, no you cannot. Scout's not a move, nor is it regular Deployment.

Teschio wrote:
@ Charistoph, the thing is, you do not DECLARE that an IC is attached to a unit before or during deployment. He is not part of it, it can only join it if you deploy it within 2" (btw, this is the reason why a Scout IC does not confer Scout to the unit he joins: because he only becomes part of the unit AFTER deployment). You simply do NOT "attach" an IC, you make him part of a unit by DEPLOYING it in coherency. Therefore, if you re-DEPLOY him, you can move him around, since he is not part of the unit.

Who said anything about "DECLARE"? Declaring is only applicable to Reserves, to which you cannot Scout out of, making that a red herring. The fact that you cannot associate "attach" as a synonym to "join" as used in the military sense is not my fault, especially as the BRB does not use "attach" with another use.

The question was and is, what allows you to change the unit the IC is deployed in unit coherency with? The answer is still: Nothing in the rulebook, and only the good graces of your opponent.

Let's look at what rules actually address changing units for the IC:

The only time allowed for the changing of unit he joins is the Movement Phase. Deployment is not a Movement Phase, nor is the Movement Phase part of Deployment. If you feel you've made a mistake in your deployments, most players will be a good sport and allow you to change, but not often during the Scout portion of deployment.

I should note, you can Scout the IC out of Coherency with the unit he joined during deployment and in to Coherency with another unit, but he would only classify as joined to the other unit in the owning player's first Movement Phase. Deployment does not require unit coherency. Though, you risk the unit starting the game in Out of Coherency with the attending problems if anything but an IC does it.

Your quote is meaningless, since it applies to leaving a unit. the point is, an IC is NOT in a unit before the game begins. The rule that needs to be used in this case is the one about deployment: "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." BEGIN the game: it's deployment and Scout re-deployment we are talking about, the game has NOT begun yet. If, at the beginning of the game, an IC is in coherency with a unit, it can join that unit. But Scout re-deployment happen BEFORE that. Therefore, when you use Scout re-deployment, the IC is NOT in the unit, it's not part of it, it has not joined it. And for this reason it can be moved freely.

>"I should note, you can Scout the IC out of Coherency with the unit he joined during deployment and in to Coherency with another unit, but he would only classify as joined to the other unit in the owning player's first Movement Phase." That's not true, as the rule I quoted clearly shows. The IC BEGINS the game in unit coherency, and is therefore part of the unit (if you want him to), even before your first Movement phase.

If you've deployed him with a unit, then if you're trying to redeploy him with a scout move, then it's not just a matter of having him redeployed with the new unit. He would have to leave the unit he was in before the Scout move was made, and you can't voluntarily leave a unit outside of the movement phase. So, he couldn't leave the unit he was originally with.

 doctortom wrote:
If you've deployed him with a unit, then if you're trying to redeploy him with a scout move, then it's not just a matter of having him redeployed with the new unit. He would have to leave the unit he was in before the Scout move was made, and you can't voluntarily leave a unit outside of the movement phase. So, he couldn't leave the unit he was originally with.

Your mistake is to consider the IC as joined to a unit before the game starts. The rules do not say that. You do NOT deploy an IC with a unit, you deploy him as an independent unit normally, and if at the START of the game he is in coherency with a unit, THEN he can start as part of that unit. Since until the game starts the IC is NOT part of any unit, you can move him as much as you want.

Teschio wrote:
Your quote is meaningless, since it applies to leaving a unit. the point is, an IC is NOT in a unit before the game begins. The rule that needs to be used in this case is the one about deployment: "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." BEGIN the game: it's deployment and Scout re-deployment we are talking about, the game has NOT begun yet. If, at the beginning of the game, an IC is in coherency with a unit, it can join that unit. But Scout re-deployment happen BEFORE that. Therefore, when you use Scout re-deployment, the IC is NOT in the unit, it's not part of it, it has not joined it. And for this reason it can be moved freely.

Actually, you are incorrect on this. The Independent Character rules specifically states:

So, the IC IS joined with the unit before the game begins, since it is fait accompli when the game begins. Since Deployment is when it happens, and nothing else gets between deployment and game start (Scout is part of deployment), care to explain the exact timing of when it would otherwise happen?

Neither IC nor Scout rules provide provision for the exchanging of joining to occur during the Scout redeployment. The only time the IC rules allow for the changing of a unit the IC joins is during the Movement Phase, of which Scouting is not a part of.

Teschio wrote:
>"I should note, you can Scout the IC out of Coherency with the unit he joined during deployment and in to Coherency with another unit, but he would only classify as joined to the other unit in the owning player's first Movement Phase." That's not true, as the rule I quoted clearly shows. The IC BEGINS the game in unit coherency, and is therefore part of the unit (if you want him to), even before your first Movement phase.

The IC begins the game as part of one unit by being deployed (not redeployed) in to coherency with it, not joined at the beginning of the game. Since the only time an IC may deliberately change who it is joined to (or not) is the Movement Phase, we still have to wait until the game begins.

Of course, that assumes your opponent isn't really nice and just doesn't allow the initial redeployment of the IC anyway. House Rules always trump anything in the book or what we say.

You said it yourself, "Scout is part of deployment". If you want the exact timing, here is how it happens: 1) you deploy normally both the unit and the IC. At this stage the game has NOT begun yet, and the IC has not joined the unit yet. 2) You can re-deploy thanks to Scout. 3) At the end of deployment, you announce that an IC in coherency with a unit has joined it. 4) Only AFTER that the game begins.

Your focus on the Movement phase as the only moment in which an IC can leave or join a unit is a red herring, because this is not what we are discussing. You are correct, of course, but this only applies after the game starts, here we are talking about what happens BEFORE the start, during deployment.

So why does "redeployment" not count as "deployment"? Both happen during the deployment stage of the game, before the game begins.
If an IC can deploy with a unit, surely he can redeploy with it. "Re" deployment is literally just deployment...again

Of course the biggest potential problem I see with this is using it to confer Scout to more units without risking the IC. For example, IC has Scout, the unit he deployed with doesn't. During the Scout move, the unit redeploys because the IC WAS with them, but the IC redeploys into a different unit.
On this basis alone, it shouldn't be allowed.

-

 Galef wrote:

Of course the biggest potential problem I see with this is using it to confer Scout to more units without risking the IC. For example, IC has Scout, the unit he deployed with doesn't. During the Scout move, the unit redeploys because the IC WAS with them, but the IC redeploys into a different unit.
On this basis alone, it shouldn't be allowed.

-

This is not an issue, since an IC is only considered part of a unit after deployment is over, if he is in unit coherency with it.

Teschio wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Of course the biggest potential problem I see with this is using it to confer Scout to more units without risking the IC. For example, IC has Scout, the unit he deployed with doesn't. During the Scout move, the unit redeploys because the IC WAS with them, but the IC redeploys into a different unit.
On this basis alone, it shouldn't be allowed.

-

This is not an issue, since an IC is only considered part of a unit after deployment is over, if he is in unit coherency with it.

Incorrect. Before being redeployed with a scout move, the IC is initially deployed with some unit. All other units are deployed before doint a Scout move redeployment. That redeployment involves moving the unit as well as the IC. In order for that to happen, the IC must be part of the unit being redeployed. Therefore, he's part of the unit being redeployed during the Scout redeployment, and you are trying to make him leave the unit during REdeployment, which isn't allowed since it's not the movement phase.

If you want to be pedantic, the rule states he begins the game as part of a unit by being deployed with a unit, not by being REdeployed with a different unit. You've already deployed him as part of the unit, there's no permission for him to be able to change units via Scout.

To drive it home further, let's look at the relevant quote: "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it.." When you put him on the board initially with that unit during deployment, he becomes part of the unit then. That point - the initial deployment, establishes which unit he has joined. You do NOT get to try to shuffle him off elsewhere, because you already established what unit he is with by the initial deployment of him.

Teschio wrote:You said it yourself, "Scout is part of deployment". If you want the exact timing, here is how it happens: 1) you deploy normally both the unit and the IC. At this stage the game has NOT begun yet, and the IC has not joined the unit yet. 2) You can re-deploy thanks to Scout. 3) At the end of deployment, you announce that an IC in coherency with a unit has joined it. 4) Only AFTER that the game begins.

Do not confuse "deployment" with "deploy", they have different uses in the rulebook. "Deployment" is a phase of game setup in which units are deployed on to the table. "Deploy" is the act of placing a unit on the table which is primarily done during deployment, but also done when bring units in from Reserves. Look it up in Arriving From Reserves, Deep Strike, and Outflank.

You also do not properly define when this act of joining occurs. You say when the game begins, but the line in Independent Characters states that this joining has already happened before the game starts. The exact phrase is, "can begin the game already with a unit", not, "when the game begins, the independent character can be joined to a unit by being in unit coherency with it".

In addition, by your definition of the timing, if an IC without Scout is to use Scout by being joined to a unit with Scout, then the rest of the unit would leave him behind when they redeployed, as he is not part of the unit and so would not be included in this. I know a few people would argue this interpretation as being valid for more reasons than just Scout.

Also, Scout nor IC rules allow for this redeployment to allow an IC to change the unit they will be joined to when the game starts.

You are not told to announce an IC as being joined to any unit it is in coherency with unless it is in coherency with two or more units. The simple fact that it is in unit coherency (or the same Transport) with a unit is all that is required to consider an IC joined to a unit. Indeed, there are proscriptions against having an IC within unit coherency with a unit it is not joining.

Teschio wrote:Your focus on the Movement phase as the only moment in which an IC can leave or join a unit is a red herring, because this is not what we are discussing. You are correct, of course, but this only applies after the game starts, here we are talking about what happens BEFORE the start, during deployment.

It is not a red herring. It is noting as to when certain things are defined as possible. It would be like bringing up Interceptor when someone states that Shooting cannot be done during the Movement Phase. It is a case of, "it is defined as possible here, but not defined as possible elsewhere".

To be precise, the Movement Phase is not the only time an IC can deliberately join a unit, but it is to deliberately leave the unit. Joining can be done during deployment, as already noted. The times an IC can move from one unit to another is only stated as being performable in the Movement Phase, and not while in Reserves. An IC can also leave a unit outside the Movement Phase, but it requires the rest of the unit dying.

Teschio wrote:This is not an issue, since an IC is only considered part of a unit after deployment is over, if he is in unit coherency with it.

Your sense of timing needs to be redefined. The IC starts the game already joined. The only time that can happen is during deployment, as that is the very last thing to happen before the game begins.

DoctorTom has already addressed some other good points, so I won't address them.