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The thread title says it all. I'm dying to find out what the Legion Astartes (Thousand Sons) rules will be and I was curious to hear what my fellow dakkanites were thinking they could be. My group of players have guessed that they might be run similar to GK's where all the squads had the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, but I've recently thought that wouldn't work. All the squads already have set point values so giving them BoP would almost have to increase their point values perhaps. Plus, the GK squads all have set psychic powers so no random rolls to see what they have. I don't see that working for 1K Sons due to making their Legion rule extremely lengthy due to the amount of different infantry units present in Heresy era marine lists.

So what ideas do you all have? At the very least they have to introduce an option to add mastery levels to praetors and some other consuls maybe. Perhaps options for squad sergeants to take ML 1 and a set power depending on which cult they belong to? Or maybe just a straight up bonus/benefit/usr added to a squad depending on cult choice?

I have no idea. The wait is killing me!

Yeah i absolutely cannot wait to find out thousand sons rules. Moreover what rules will Magnus have

I was also thinking of either giving a sergeant ML1 or the squad brotherhood of psykers for 20-25 points. and any centurion/consul can take up to 2 mastery levels and praetor has to buy 3 (as thousand sons of a high rank were always strong psykers).

As for powers maybe make it so that you can pick powers, but sergeants of the squads can only pick one of 2 weak powers from their cult discipline, the stronger ML2 psykers could get stronger powers and only the praetors or librarians could take the strongest powers (and ban invisibility and probably also endurance)

However there is a problem with that, firstly seeing how the 7th edition psychics work and having an army of tzeentch daemons in 40k i can definitely say that i almost never use all the squads to cast stuff in a single turn, rather focusing more dice to get off key powers. And that is just not how i would see thousand sons working.

So you could revert the psychics for basic squads a bit to being activated like the navigator's powers with a leadership test (like previous editions) and not generating any dice.

The other problem i see is that thousand sons usually had adepts of different cults in most if not all their squads. to represent that particular guys in a squad give the squad particular abilities , but need to activate them:
(like 6+/+1 to feel no pain for pavoni, 5+/+1 to invul from shooting for raptora, +1S to shooting attacks for pyrae, +1 cover for athanaeans, -1 cover for enemies for corvidae)

However it would get very hard to keep track of and very confusing (who activated what and who got killed, thus deciding which abilities you still have, and which you don't).

And that is not even starting to think about the tutelaries and special units/wargear...

So yeah i don't really know how they will handle it all and not end up with the most confusing army to play (and i know about confusing armies between ad mech in 40k and 30k and tzeentch daemons with all the randomly generated rewards and psychic powers)

Yeah, how they are gonna manage that without making the Legion either insanely complicated or overpowered should be pretty interesting. At least FW bothers to do rules testing before releasing new forces into the game, unlike GW seems to do in regular 40k. I look forward to seeing their take on Thousand Sons

I can see them balancing the squad's efficiency with point increases for each squad/model. It would also represent that sons are a numerically smaller legion.

I however do not understand how will they balance magnus, while making him on par with his fluff. He is supposed to be a vastly superior psyker to even lorgar transfigured, who is already one of the strongest primarchs if he takes levitation, maelstrom and iron arm/endurance

Lorgar can only choose powers from 2 disciplines, while magnus should be able to choose from any and also be like a level 5-6 psyker... also probably casting on 3+ as well or even 2+.. I'm afraid he will be 500+ points, so only available in normal games through the primarchs chosen rite of war....



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To be fair primarchs chosen rite is very fitting for the sekhmet, very elite small strong force (veterans, couple of extra HQs, terminators, legion specific units), which will be absolutely devastated by the loss of the primarch (thus no scoring if he dies).

Yeah I can see Magnus coming in at more points than Horus. He would have to be ML 4-5 at least to get anything even close to representing his power level.

Plus, after Magnus stabilized their geneseed problem the remaining few Marines they hadn't put into cryostasis saw their power increase. These guys really were the last thousand or so in the Legion. So in effect every a Marine in the legion should be at least ML 1.

How do,you really play that in tabletop without using brotherhood of psykers rule? Unless of course they completely and utterly screw up their legion rules.

I think allowing characters and sergeants to take low levels of psychic power is probably the most likely thing - the rules already exist for it, which makes it much easier than tons of new special rules for each cult.

Fluff-wise, the Legion has lots of Psykers, but the vast majority of their regular troops are non-Psychic. The problem with using something like Brotherhood of Psykers is that the psychic powers stay with the unit until the last model is dead.

So, something like a really widespread Burning Lore seems likely - with Centurion-level characters getting access to higher levels. You could represent the cult nature by forcing all the psykers to stick to one discipline (which makes it easier to keep track). I could see Tutelaries as special equipment like a Spell Familiar, allowing re-rolls of Psychic tests.

You could use the Legion Special Rules to represent the 'lower enumerations' which seem to be some sort of calm, meditative state that you don't even need to be psychic to do. Maybe they're immune to Pinning because they're so calm, or their strong, guarded minds give them Adamantium Will?

I'd say they might get a special type of Praetor that will be a psychic, or maybe a "Sorcerer"- Psyker level 1 or 2 at best. Yes, in the fluff, they researched forbidden knowledge and even found out about the Black Library, but they were censored by the Emperor. They might have a Rite of War that grants army wide Adamantium Will. It would be kind of cool if they could utilize the Web Way to deepstrike onto the table. Or, because they were known for winning battles using guile and trickery, they may get a bonus to Seize the Initiative, or be able to redeploy units before the first turn. If Forge World was going to stick to the fluff, there should be a special rule that any Psyker that over-exerts themselves becomes a Chaos Spawn- maybe something like if they roll triple sixes during a Psychic Test, they become Chaos Spawn.

There is also play balance to consider. Forge World does seem to be concerned about play balance, and if you notice, there are next to zero psychic powers/units available. Introducing an entire army that can use psychic powers would be too powerful, as no other army could counter it. The next book in the HH series is supposed to introduce the Sisters of Silence, so maybe they will be a unit that any Legion can take that will balance out Psychic powers?

This is also 30K, not 40K. There are next to zero Librarians and Chaplains in any of the Legions. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but Chaplains didn't pop up until after the Heresy and the rise of the Cult Imperials, (though I understand the Word Bearers basically had Chaplains, but the other Legions did not) and Librarians were keepers of knowledge. It wasn't until again, after the HH that Librarians really started researching psychic powers. The 30K Legions were armies of martial power, not spiritual or psychic power. As the Heresy continued, the influence of Chaos became more and more apparent, but still the levels of Psykers we see is small and limited compared to 40K. After the Council of Nikaea and the censoring of all psychic and sorcererous powers, all Librarians were ordered to cease any research into such things. So from the time of the Council to the Heresy itself, there should be no Psykers.




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Wow, just read the Thousand Sons Wiki and wow, lots of good information there. There is so much lore and "fluff" in 30K and 40K that it buggers the imagination! It almost makes me want to start a 30K XVth Legion! There has been some great candy apple red paint jobs out there the last couple weeks...

 ArbitorIan wrote:
You could represent the cult nature by forcing all the psykers to stick to one discipline (which makes it easier to keep track).

I believe FW has said that's what they're doing (or were at the time, playtesting might have changed it since then), or at least something similar by not allowing the varying T-Sons psychic cults from mixing in the one army.

 bomtek80 wrote:
Yeah I can see Magnus coming in at more points than Horus. He would have to be ML 4-5 at least to get anything even close to representing his power level.

There are more ways to represent psychic power than by just slapping mastery levels on a character. Bonuses to casting (like Lorgar), being able to choose powers, higher than normal ability scores, unique powers/abilities, etc.

Plus, after Magnus stabilized their geneseed problem the remaining few Marines they hadn't put into cryostasis saw their power increase. These guys really were the last thousand or so in the Legion. So in effect every a Marine in the legion should be at least ML 1.

How do,you really play that in tabletop without using brotherhood of psykers rule? Unless of course they completely and utterly screw up their legion rules.

Why do they have to have actual psychic mastery levels? A unit could instead get something like a passive buff each turn, possibly needing only a leadership test to cast (like the navigator).

There are many ways to represent the psychic abilities of the Thousands Sons without resorting to just plain vanilla psychic powers.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:
Yeah I can see Magnus coming in at more points than Horus. He would have to be ML 4-5 at least to get anything even close to representing his power level.

There are more ways to represent psychic power than by just slapping mastery levels on a character. Bonuses to casting (like Lorgar), being able to choose powers, higher than normal ability scores, unique powers/abilities, etc.

Plus, after Magnus stabilized their geneseed problem the remaining few Marines they hadn't put into cryostasis saw their power increase. These guys really were the last thousand or so in the Legion. So in effect every a Marine in the legion should be at least ML 1.

How do,you really play that in tabletop without using brotherhood of psykers rule? Unless of course they completely and utterly screw up their legion rules.

Why do they have to have actual psychic mastery levels? A unit could instead get something like a passive buff each turn, possibly needing only a leadership test to cast (like the navigator).

There are many ways to represent the psychic abilities of the Thousands Sons without resorting to just plain vanilla psychic powers.

They don't HAVE to, sure. I was simply trying to make conjecture in regards to how their Legion rules are going to work. With nary even a peek or hint it's hard to guess how they will make it work. It's a little frustrating actually, im trying to put together a legion of these guys and not having any idea of how they work is a pain in the rear.

Heres from the FB group on predications, which a lot tend to agree. Also there were hints from FW on "picking your spell focus". AKA Athanaean, Corvidae, Pavoni, Pyrae, Raptora

-Stubborn as standard, representing mastery of enumerations

- removal of Support Officer rule for our Librarians

- all HQ's can buy a mastery level or two, actual Librarians can go to Lv3. Possibly Sergeants can be Lv1, at the cost of restricting certain wargear, for balance reasons

- Perils of the Warp becoming a lot more brutal, representing the threat of the Flesh Change. Possibly some kind of statline change representing the transformation under certain circumstances.

- Scarab Occult: brotherhood of psykers. Might get assault cannons like BA and IF but not sure if they'd go that far, considering other buffs the 'Sons get in their favour

- Hidden Ones: scout/ sneaky unit focussing on misdirection

str00dles1 wrote:
Heres from the FB group on predications, which a lot tend to agree. Also there were hints from FW on "picking your spell focus". AKA Athanaean, Corvidae, Pavoni, Pyrae, Raptora

-Stubborn as standard, representing mastery of enumerations

- removal of Support Officer rule for our Librarians

- all HQ's can buy a mastery level or two, actual Librarians can go to Lv3. Possibly Sergeants can be Lv1, at the cost of restricting certain wargear, for balance reasons

- Perils of the Warp becoming a lot more brutal, representing the threat of the Flesh Change. Possibly some kind of statline change representing the transformation under certain circumstances.

- Scarab Occult: brotherhood of psykers. Might get assault cannons like BA and IF but not sure if they'd go that far, considering other buffs the 'Sons get in their favour

- Hidden Ones: scout/ sneaky unit focussing on misdirection

The idea of an entire army getting Stubborn for free, and then so many psychic abilities, all in 30K where stubborn is incredibly rare and hard to get, and where hardly anyone has psychic abilities would be overpowered at the very least. I would expect more from Forge World then that. As in, more balance/forethought into the Thousand Sons.

str00dles1 wrote:
Heres from the FB group on predications, which a lot tend to agree. Also there were hints from FW on "picking your spell focus". AKA Athanaean, Corvidae, Pavoni, Pyrae, Raptora

What FB group might that be? I'd be interested in seeing other people's guess work.

 Tamwulf wrote:


This is also 30K, not 40K. There are next to zero Librarians and Chaplains in any of the Legions. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but Chaplains didn't pop up until after the Heresy and the rise of the Cult Imperials, (though I understand the Word Bearers basically had Chaplains, but the other Legions did not) and Librarians were keepers of knowledge. It wasn't until again, after the HH that Librarians really started researching psychic powers. The 30K Legions were armies of martial power, not spiritual or psychic power. As the Heresy continued, the influence of Chaos became more and more apparent, but still the levels of Psykers we see is small and limited compared to 40K. After the Council of Nikaea and the censoring of all psychic and sorcererous powers, all Librarians were ordered to cease any research into such things. So from the time of the Council to the Heresy itself, there should be no Psykers.

On the contrary, after the Edict of Nikaea every Legion was *supposed* to have Chaplains - Malcador, taking inspiration from the Word Bearers, ordered every Legion to implement Chaplains as a way of both enforcing the Edict of Nikaea as well as a way to ensure the morale of the warriors. Of course, it was probably due to the influence of the Word Bearers on the Chaplains that led to the spread of the Lodges throughout some of the Legions, which was how the Word Bearers started to lay the seeds of betrayal.

And not every Legion obeyed the Edict of Nikaea either. The Word Bearers had discovered the Primordial Truth by that point, and were already starting to plot against the false-Emperor. The Alpha Legion had been shown the Acuity by the Cabal, and had begun their plots to destroy the Primordial Annihilator and were hardly going to obey Edicts laid out on them. And of course The Thousand Sons basically straight up ignored it.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:


This is also 30K, not 40K. There are next to zero Librarians and Chaplains in any of the Legions. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but Chaplains didn't pop up until after the Heresy and the rise of the Cult Imperials, (though I understand the Word Bearers basically had Chaplains, but the other Legions did not) and Librarians were keepers of knowledge. It wasn't until again, after the HH that Librarians really started researching psychic powers. The 30K Legions were armies of martial power, not spiritual or psychic power. As the Heresy continued, the influence of Chaos became more and more apparent, but still the levels of Psykers we see is small and limited compared to 40K. After the Council of Nikaea and the censoring of all psychic and sorcererous powers, all Librarians were ordered to cease any research into such things. So from the time of the Council to the Heresy itself, there should be no Psykers.

On the contrary, after the Edict of Nikaea every Legion was *supposed* to have Chaplains - Malcador, taking inspiration from the Word Bearers, ordered every Legion to implement Chaplains as a way of both enforcing the Edict of Nikaea as well as a way to ensure the morale of the warriors. Of course, it was probably due to the influence of the Word Bearers on the Chaplains that led to the spread of the Lodges throughout some of the Legions, which was how the Word Bearers started to lay the seeds of betrayal.

And not every Legion obeyed the Edict of Nikaea either. The Word Bearers had discovered the Primordial Truth by that point, and were already starting to plot against the false-Emperor. The Alpha Legion had been shown the Acuity by the Cabal, and had begun their plots to destroy the Primordial Annihilator and were hardly going to obey Edicts laid out on them. And of course The Thousand Sons basically straight up ignored it.

Not to mention the Wulfs and their bonerattlers - as we know since the novels about Prospero they are using the warp, too .)