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Hey all. Getting into X-Wing and could use a little list optimizing advice. I don't play very competitively, but my group does tend to run tough lists and I'm interested to know how this would fare at a tournament level.

The boring title for this list would be Scum Synergy, but in honor of their unofficial anthem I prefer to call them the True Doom Murderheads.

Drea Renthal (27) - Y-Wing
Autoblaster Turret (2), R4-B11 (3), BTL-A4 Y-wing (0)

Palob Godalhi (28) - HWK-290
Opportunist (4), Dorsal Turret (3), Boba Fett (1)

Kaa'to Leeachos (20) - Z-95 Headhunter
Wingman (2), Black Market Slicer Tools (1), Vectored Thrusters (2)

N'Dru Suhlak (25) - Z-95 Headhunter
Lone Wolf (2), Cluster Missiles (4), Glitterstim (2), Guidance Chips (0)

100 points

The whole frontline is PS 5, giving me a lot of flexibility in action order. Drea is the spearhead, vacuuming up stress to stick very reliable damage while tanking. Palob is a secondary threat, debuffer, and zone defense. Kaa'to is the support, and can be a blocker. We'll likely be leaving the joust stressed but with poor green maneuvers- Kaa'to can let us bleed off stress on high speed whites to juke any followup. He's also carrying the BMST to stick a knife in any PTL aces we face. N'Dru is the cleanup man, running down a flank to keep the enemy watching their backs and deleting anything he can get his sights on.

Thoughts on optimization? I could drop VT to upgrade Palob's crew slot to a K4 or Recon Specialist, but I feel that makes his post-joust positioning really predictable. There's also a more defensive build that replaces N'Dru with Serrisu, but I like the worry that he puts into the enemy's head by sharking around on the sidelines.

 Formerly Wu wrote:
I'm interested to know how this would fare at a tournament level.

Very badly. Honestly, the only decent ship in there is N'Dru, everything else is bad.

Drea is a questionable investment no matter what you put on her, and R4-B11 goes very poorly with an autoblaster turret. Why force your opponent to re-roll their defense dice when they can't roll defense dice against your autoblaster anyway (yes, crits, but a single crit isn't likely to do anything anyway). Then the A4 title doesn't make much sense here, the autoblaster turret is your primary damage source and you're much better off keeping the 360* arc with it. But in general the problem is that Drea is not very good. Once you start taking lots of stress on a y-wing you're never getting actions, and if you ever lose that target lock (such as having one of your other ships kill the ship it's on) you're rolling unmodified dice for the rest of the game. For the points she just isn't better enough compared to a TLT y-wing.

Palob is ok as a pilot, but equipped wrong. Opportunist sounds good on paper but it's really expensive, and here you're using it to make that dorsal turret maybe shoot at the same effectiveness as a TLT. And Boba Fett is marginal at best when you have no crit generators to make him work. The standard Palob setup is a TLT and Zuckuss, re-rolling all of your opponent's green dice makes the TLT really hurt and Palob can often borrow someone else's tokens to make the pile of stress much less of a problem.

Kaa'to is just garbage. There is pretty much no situation where you want to steal a token from a better ship and give it to a z-95, so the only thing you're gaining over a PS 1 z-95 with slicer tools is wingman. And wingman is bad, if you can't function without your wingman ship then the ship you're supporting needs to lose its stress generators until it can.

N'Dru is fine, that's the standard setup.

Drea is the spearhead, vacuuming up stress to stick very reliable damage while tanking.

The problem with this plan is that you have no way to force your opponent to shoot at Drea. You can't tank in X-Wing (unless you're Biggs), you can only be such a massive threat that you draw priority attention. And Drea isn't that. With the A4 title it's way too easy to dodge her arc and go straight for Palob.

Anyway, if you want to play a scum synergy list what you're looking for is Dengaroo. That and u-boats are the two main lists scum have, but u-boats are a straight jousting list that lines up and rolls better dice than you until you're dead.

Thanks for the feedback. I agree the R4-B11 / Autoblaster combo isn't ideal- I'd prefer a Dorsal Turret. Maybe I'll drop Fett, or replace him with an Intel Agent so Kaa'to can set picks for Palob and Drea.

I don't have any TLTs and don't care to shell out for them at the moment, so I'm afraid that's a wash.

I once tried a list with N'dru (You can also switch out Lone Wolf with VI (to get to fire first) or Deadeye to make sure the required TL for your missiles is not preventing you from firing), Palob with TLT and Zuckuss on board as well as a Tail Gunner-toting Kath Scarlet. Kath is clearly the scarier target, but if you decline to joust, Palob can survive longer, and N'Dru can bide his time to unleash his salvo of death. If you keep him with Lone Wolf, he gets to still be useful after unloading himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Serissu's carriage is just too delicate for her to be considered worthwhile, imho.

I agree Kaato isnt great. As noyed, the big problem is who'd you steal a token from. The best answer is probably 'another z95', although I guess a moldy crow HWK with a suitable stockpile might work too.

The only real use I can see for him is that he's the cheapest scum ship with an EPT, and the ability to generate an 'extra' focus (at soneone else's expense) and relatively low PS means he might work with bodyguard. In theory.

Ok, I reworked stuff and gave it a try this weekend. Again, semi-casual environment and we both made a lot of learning mistakes. It may not be competitive, but it was definitely fun and had some neat interactions.

Drea Renthal (27) - Y-Wing
Dorsal Turret (3), R4 Agromech (2), BTL-A4 Y-wing (0)

Kaa'to Leeachos (21) - Z-95 Headhunter
Deadeye (1), Cluster Missiles (4), Black Market Slicer Tools (1), Guidance Chips (0)

Palob Godalhi (29) - HWK-290
Wingman (2), Blaster Turret (4), Recon Specialist (3)

Serissu (23) - M3-A "Scyk" Interceptor
Push The Limit (3)

I decided to give Serissu a probationary try, since I'm not yet confident in my ability to keep N'Dru at proper range once the furball starts. She pulled her weight. PTL keeps her alive and mobile, and she can generate tokens for Kaa'to if he wants to use BMST.

One observation: this list has a lot of "abort to Plan B" potential. If your priority target dodges your arc, R4 and Deadeye keep Drea and Kaa'to's damage potential in the game. Recon Palob and Deadeye Kaa'to also go well together, letting you pull fancy moves like a K-turn -> grab a token from Palob -> Cluster Missiles.

Second observation is that the threat is spread pretty evenly across the list. Palob anchors the squad but isn't flashy enough to draw attention, Serissu and Kaa'to were squirrely enough to avoid focus, and Drea can take the joust. Chalk that up to a rookie opponent perhaps, but not having an obvious threat felt like a plus. Not to mention that, while its interactions make it stronger, it doesn't fall apart if your formation breaks or you lose somebody early.

I played against a Garven / Ion Stressbot / T-65 Rookies list. Drea got smacked around by the stressbot plus her own TL chain, but Palob was there to bleed off her stress quickly enough to turn and get another successful pass in. Kaa'to crippled a rookie with the aforementioned fancy maneuver and followed up with BMST to kill the Y-Wing, and Serissu chased Garven out of the fight pretty handily.

Things to try for next time: Swarm Tactics on Serissu to make sure Drea gets her shot in, and Crack Shot on Kaa'to once I'm more comfortable with lining up my shots.

Honestly, this is still bad. Drea is underwhelming for her cost, especially compared to a TLT y-wing. Leech is just garbage, if you can't find a way to take N'Dru then just drop all the way to a PS 1 generic with slicer tools. Palob should have a TLT and Zuckuss, which will almost always be more of a threat than the blaster turret, and wingman is still bad. And Serissu is just plain bad, you don't have anything that really cares much about defense dice and spending that many points on a 2-dice gun is not a good way to win games. This is one of those lists where even when all of your complicated interactions are working you still don't match the raw power of the best lists, and you're giving away easy wins if your opponent is at all competitive.

And that is the big if. Because if your opponent isn't, then you might still squeek by. It'll create a false sense of security until you find a cute list, show up to a tourney and get properly demolished. LFMF.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
It'll create a false sense of security until you find a cute list, show up to a tourney and get properly demolished.

Tournaments aren't my scene, so I'd go in expecting to get demolished no matter what list I brought.

Peregrine, again, I appreciate the feedback but I feel like there's a disconnect between expectations here. I'm looking to optimize within a concept: scum aces that fly together and mutually support each other, making them more than the sum of their parts. If the sum of their parts can't ever match the raw power of a competitive list, that's fine. I'm in a semi-casual environment. I just want to make choices that are decent within that framework.

So for example, Kaa'to. Competitively, he's garbage; I get that. But he's also the only Z-95 with an EPT who can fly in formation, and the cheapest way to get an EPT in the list at all. Fly him alongside Recon Palob, who's generating 2-3 focus per turn, and his action economy is good, letting him BMST and retain dice mods or ordnance capability. That's worth 3 points to me over a pirate, and it supports the list concept in a way the pirate doesn't. What (if any) ordnance and which EPT are where I'm looking to optimize.

If this list has a low ceiling on it, that's fine. I just want to make sure I reach that ceiling.

I think the word that triggers this disconnect is Ace. You're not looking to fly aces, but named pilots.

Have you seen the latest Stay on the Leader article? You can skip the whole discussion about the lack of merit of Pacific Rim, but it discusses the synergy of a particular Scum upgrade that might be up your alley.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I think the word that triggers this disconnect is Ace. You're not looking to fly aces, but named pilots.

Ah, point well taken. Thanks.

Have you seen the latest Stay on the Leader article? You can skip the whole discussion about the lack of merit of Pacific Rim, but it discusses the synergy of a particular Scum upgrade that might be up your alley.

Excellent, thanks for the recommendation.

Edit: That does indeed give me ideas. I'll play around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hang on, am I reading this right?

Palob
Attani Mindlink, Recon Specialist

Kaa'to
Attani Mindlink

Palob focuses and gets two foci assigned to him. Via Attani Mindlink, Kaa'to gets two foci as well, and chooses to focus himself (for whatever reason). Via Attani Mindlink, this goes back to Palob. Both ships now have 3 foci.

At the start of the combat phase, Palob steals a focus from an enemy. Via Attani Mindlink, that gets assigned to Kaa'to too. Then Kaa'to steals a focus from Palob. Via Attani Mindlink, that focus goes right back to Palob. The squad begins the combat phase with 5 focus each.

Did I get that interaction right? As described it's totally ludicrous, but the feedback between Mindlink and Palob/Kaa'to's theft abilities might be worth exploring. As long as your meta doesn't have a lot of stress delivery, that is.

You are reading it wrong. The mindlink only gives you a focus (or stress) token if you don't already have one.

Yeesh, talk about selective blindness. It's right there on the card. Oh well.

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Peregrine, again, I appreciate the feedback but I feel like there's a disconnect between expectations here. I'm looking to optimize within a concept: scum aces that fly together and mutually support each other, making them more than the sum of their parts. If the sum of their parts can't ever match the raw power of a competitive list, that's fine. I'm in a semi-casual environment. I just want to make choices that are decent within that framework.

*shrug*

I think you're falling into the trap of bringing buffs and interactions for the sake of having buffs rather than those buffs being effective, but if you're going to insist on a list of "my ships must all buff each other" then I'll leave you to it. Just don't expect to win much, even against "casual" lists.

We all find enjoyment in our own way, Peregrine.

Just don't expect to win much, even against "casual" lists.

Best of luck to you too.

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Tournaments aren't my scene, so I'd go in expecting to get demolished no matter what list I brought.

That's fair enough, but you also said this in your OP:

I'm interested to know how this would fare at a tournament level.

Everyone has given you the advice you asked for and you've countered it with insisting you still want to fly terrible ships and upgrades because it's "fun." Sure, your lists meets the requirement of having synergy but it also pretty much sucks. There are plenty of Scum lists that have synergy that are both better and more fun: Scum HWKs, Brobots, Dengaroo, Moralo & IG-88B, to name a few.

I've actually been wanting to figure out a scum synergy list myself.

I always liked the idea of Drea Renthal with a Twin Laser Turret and R4-B11. In theory it's like the ship is somehow packing both Zuckuss and Dengar on a single, turret-armed ship.

The problem was that if you ever lost your target lock, you were buried under a Psycho Tycho/Stresshog sized pile of stress tokens and never got to do anything again.

Which makes me wonder about an Unhinged Astromech/K4 Manaroo, who can pass a replacement target lock if needed (plus a focus token).

Drea should only need a fresh lock every so often (although lock/focus/focus is not to be sneered at), so most of the time, Manaroo should be chucking tokens to the other ship(s).

You've got 48 points for extras for Manaroo and for a third ship... I'm not sure what would be best. Pretty much any 'small base' Scum high-end pilot could fit, it's just a question of which would fit best and what extras you take.

I'm not sure Punishing One is worth taking - Manaroo is going to be token-less a lot of the time and is probably best used as a feedback array/APL blocker if possible.

I was wondering about using either Fenn Rau and Push The Limit, or Attani Mindlink with Guri or (probably useless but simply because I never see her - and yes, I know it's for good reason) Serissu.


Option #1
Fenn Rau - Concord Dawn Protector, Push The Limit, Autothrusters
Manaroo - Push The Limit, K4 Security Droid, Unhinged Astromech
Drea Renthal - Twin Laser Turret, R4-B11

(Fenn Rau is the closest thing Scum have to a Soontir Fel analogue - this list is only 99 points as a PS9 pilot means you're going to give a damn about initiative)

Option #2
Guri - Virago, Attani Mindlink, Advanced Sensors, Autothrusters
Manaroo - Attani Mindlink, K4 Security Droid, Unhinged Astromech
Drea Renthal - Twin Laser Turret, R4-B11

(Use that extra point and then some and you get Mindlink Guri. Attani Mindlink pairs well with Manaroo and Guri's abilities and lets you do some silly token-related shennanigans. The Starviper with advanced sensors and its full dial can reposition far, far better than a green-limited Mando Fighter or Squint, but at the cost of a lower PS that means you're always using that manouvrability before opposing aces, rather than reactively)

Option #3
Serissu - Heavy Scyk, Attani Mindlink, Heavy Laser Cannon, Stealth Device
Manaroo - Attani Mindlink, K4 Security Droid, Unhinged Astromech, Feedback Array, Anti-Pursuit Lasers
Drea Renthal - Twin Laser Turret, R4-B11

(Just a really random thought. Serissu's pilot ability is almost a 'bonus' here - if it ever triggers, great, but don't bank on it. She's primarily here purely because she's got a Heavy Laser Cannon and access to Mindlink)

The problem is, imho, that you are sinking a lot of points into a support ship for a ship that does a max of 2 damage per turn. Less against well-protected squints. That's a lot of points for a dubious endgame piece.

In option 1, I think Fenn Rau stands out too much as the biggest threat and ought to be chased first. I took him down with two HLC shots and one BMST roll last night.

I just don't think Drea Renthal brings enough to the table to be worth that much more than a basic Y-wing+TLT+Unhinged.