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Fear is commonly cited as one of the most useless USRs in the rulebook. This is for two reasons:

1. Immunity to fear is widespread.
2. It doesn't really do anything. It has a chance of reducing opponent combat stats in close combat.

Let's ignore the first part.

The second part doesn't really make sense to me. If you look at what fearless, ATSKNF and similar things do, they have nothing to do with BS and WS. They have to do with morale and leadership.

So the idea that fear should make the enemy bad at fighting...doesn't really make much sense to me.

I have a counter-proposal for fear:

Replace the fear USR with Fear (x), where x shall always be some determinate number. Examples: Fear 1, Fear 2, Fear 3.

The USR shall read: all enemy units within 6 inches of a unit with the fear USR shall count their leadership as being x less when making leadership tests. The penalty imposed by multiple units with the Fear USR shall not stack. Only the highest Fear penalty applies.

Obviously, space marines, daemons, etc. should continue to be immune to fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My rationale for this:

The idea that fear should make the enemy somehow forget to fight just makes less sense to me than the idea that fear should make the enemy...you know...

...more likely to run away.

Fear right now makes perfect since fluff wise. When a unit succumbs to fear they are cowering in a vein attempt to hide from the situation (since you can't run away from combat in 40k)

Fleeing isn't the only response to terrifying things

 CrownAxe wrote:
Fear right now makes perfect since fluff wise. When a unit succumbs to fear they are cowering in a vein attempt to hide from the situation (since you can't run away from combat in 40k)

Yes, you can run away from combat in 40k. You generally have to fail a leadership test to do so. This usually occasions the possibility of a sweeping advance.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Fear right now makes perfect since fluff wise. When a unit succumbs to fear they are cowering in a vein attempt to hide from the situation (since you can't run away from combat in 40k)

Yes, you can run away from combat in 40k. You generally have to fail a leadership test to do so. This usually occasions the possibility of a sweeping advance.

See there already is a game mechanic representing fleeing. Why should their be another rule to do the same thing?

CrownAxe wrote:See there already is a game mechanic representing fleeing. Why should their be another rule to do the same thing?

Fearless
And They Shall Know No Fear
Stubborn
Demonic Instability
Mob Rules

Am I forgetting one?

At any rate, the opportunity to flee =/= the likelihood of fleeing.

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:See there already is a game mechanic representing fleeing. Why should their be another rule to do the same thing?

Fearless
And They Shall Know No Fear
Stubborn
Demonic Instability
Mob Rules

Am I forgetting one?

At any rate, the opportunity to flee =/= the likelihood of fleeing.

I do not know what the list of rules you've posted has anything to do with what i said.

I think all the imunity to things needs to go away. Saying this as a nid player. ATSKNF and Fearless being all over the damn place just removes whole chunks of the games core rules from entire armies. 30k has better ways of giving marines a nice boost without making them immune to crap and other armies should have the same.

That being the case. fear causing a leadership penalty is a good idea. But not as a bubble passive effect. I can see it adding the x to the leadership value of any moral or leadership checks caused by the unit.

The unit is in a combat and the enemy looses. -x on top of the penalty from losses.

The unit has a pinning attack... -x,

I'd be fine with this, Traditio, but I'd have it only be a penalty to morale/pinning tests and not to Leadership in general. Otherwise, you end up with an easier-to achieve freakshow list effect where lots of units just sort of crowd around a target that you want to hit with psychic shriek.

Fear currently is a melee combat modifier making it easier to hit fearful things in CC and making it harder for them to hit you back (because your WS goes into the gutter). Changing fear to be a general leadership is fine but you have rework each case of a model with fear and figure out what the intended design is. Was this given fear to make them break combat easier, run away from shooting, etc or was it given to be more dominant in CC against weaker melee units.

Or we can make it that ATSKNF is a reroll on failed tests. So that way it isn't stupid useless against a bunch of things.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or we can make it that ATSKNF is a reroll on failed tests. So that way it isn't stupid useless against a bunch of things.

That still leaves a ton of army's immune to fear and dose nothing to fix any of it's other problems.

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or we can make it that ATSKNF is a reroll on failed tests. So that way it isn't stupid useless against a bunch of things.

That still leaves a ton of army's immune to fear and dose nothing to fix any of it's other problems.

How do you figure? What would be immune to it at that point outside Fearless models?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Fear right now makes perfect since fluff wise. When a unit succumbs to fear they are cowering in a vein attempt to hide from the situation (since you can't run away from combat in 40k)

Fleeing isn't the only response to terrifying things

I'd explain it as the feared target panicking instead of fighting effectively, making them easy pickings.

A less extreme version of sweeping advance, really.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'd be fine with this, Traditio, but I'd have it only be a penalty to morale/pinning tests and not to Leadership in general. Otherwise, you end up with an easier-to achieve freakshow list effect where lots of units just sort of crowd around a target that you want to hit with psychic shriek.

I specifically phrased it so that it's only a negative modifier to leadership when making leadership tests. I phrased it that way precisely because of psychic shriek (which is based on leadership, but doesn't involve a leadership test).

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or we can make it that ATSKNF is a reroll on failed tests. So that way it isn't stupid useless against a bunch of things.

That still leaves a ton of army's immune to fear and dose nothing to fix any of it's other problems.

How do you figure? What would be immune to it at that point outside Fearless models?

Fearless is very widespread.

I'd be willing to see ATSKNF nerfed when other models lose fearless, when necrons take a substantial hit to their leadership, when tyrranids lose army-wide fearless, when orks lose mob rules, when daemons lose daemonic instability...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a follow up to that:

The only armies that should be afraid are orks (when their numbers have dwindled), non-space marine humans, eldar, dark eldar and the Tau.

Personally, I think it's silly that CSM get scared.

The rest should basically be fearless. Personally, I'd rather my space marines have fearless than ATSKNF. Fearless models don't run off of the board, lose strategic positions, etc.

 Traditio wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'd be fine with this, Traditio, but I'd have it only be a penalty to morale/pinning tests and not to Leadership in general. Otherwise, you end up with an easier-to achieve freakshow list effect where lots of units just sort of crowd around a target that you want to hit with psychic shriek.

I specifically phrased it so that it's only a negative modifier to leadership when making leadership tests. I phrased it that way precisely because of psychic shriek (which is based on leadership, but doesn't involve a leadership test).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or we can make it that ATSKNF is a reroll on failed tests. So that way it isn't stupid useless against a bunch of things.

That still leaves a ton of army's immune to fear and dose nothing to fix any of it's other problems.

How do you figure? What would be immune to it at that point outside Fearless models?

Fearless is very widespread.

I'd be willing to see ATSKNF nerfed when other models lose fearless, when necrons take a substantial hit to their leadership, when tyrranids lose army-wide fearless, when orks lose mob rules, when daemons lose daemonic instability...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a follow up to that:

The only armies that should be afraid are orks (when their numbers have dwindled), non-space marine humans, eldar, dark eldar and the Tau.

Personally, I think it's silly that CSM get scared.

The rest should basically be fearless. Personally, I'd rather my space marines have fearless than ATSKNF. Fearless models don't run off of the board, lose strategic positions, etc.

ATSKNF is widespread. Fearless isn't common enough for the issue you're having.

I have been writing a nid fan dex and my version of synapse has units use the unmodified leadership of the nearest synapse creature for all relevant tests.

It's fluffy, a strong leadership value, but not one they are incapable of failing.

ATSKNF and chapter tactics should all be changed to the 30k version of space marines. It is good and gives variety amongst the chapters without making them immune to a whole chunk of the game.

I don't have a problem with occasional models being fearless in every army especially major leaders and low. But army wide is nonsense.

Didn't there used to be a Terror rule in 40k? Seem to recall that from a long ways back. Add the Terror USR. You can gain it additively by stacking multiple fear sources on one character or unit or by certain units having it outright. There may be exceptions where it won't stack but most will. Terror overrides Fearless and ATSKNF. It should be harder to come by being the niche of mostly demons, some nid monsters (those with heavy psychic presences) psykers and certain Dark Eldar technology.

Fear and the proposed Terror should also apply as bubble of 12" (maybe reduce it to 6" for Fear) wherein the BS penalty applies to enemy models if they were targeted or hit by weaponry or psychic powers from that unit.. It shouldn't just be a close combat rule.

Fear should just be affecting your ability to perform on the battlefield. Leadership is a combination of training (operating in a stressful and dangerous environment) and officers maintaining discipline. This (the effects of morale) will override an individuals desire to flee and will see him continue to perform on the battlefield, it's just his effectiveness (his WS & BS) will be effected. It also means you have to rely on other source of Freakshow shenanigans, sources which strike at Leadership directly.

I'm opposed to anything going through Fearless to be honest.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm opposed to anything going through Fearless to be honest.

I agree with this. Fearless should be much rarer. But robots and such should be fearless and nothing should be able to change that.

Fear is meant to have an effect on the combat effectiveness of units (in the fluff) so why not change its effect.

Units causing Fear count as having both assault and defensive grenades. If the unit already has one or other of these grenades already then they count as and improve initiative, say +2 or 3 When assaulting (assault grenades) and opponents have a a reduced initiative of the same (down to 0). These modifiers could be part of the unit stats so a Bloodletter could be Fear(1) and a Bloodthirster could be Fear(3). Fearless and ATSKNF only ignore the initiative impact.