Tech-priest Dominus and Master of machines special rule

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**Liberal_Perturabo**

So I had this argument with one of my friends. Dominus always has 2 shooting weapons both of which he can shoot due to mechadendrite harness. Since master of machines says that I can choose to not fire one of his weapons to regain a wound\HP\restore crit on a 2+ and it doesn't say one use only or once per game\turn\shooting phase does it actually make it possible for me to opt to not fire any of his weapons and try, for exmple, to regain 2 wound on him? I feel like it should, honestly.

**Kommissar Kel**

Similar to exvhanging 1 weapon for a relic, or any other instances of allowance of not do one thing to do something else: if you choose not to fire 2 weapons to repair 2 wounds/hullpoints; you are not following the rules allowed.

If it had said he can attempt repairs for each weapon not fired, or otherwise gave permission for multiple attempts, then it would work just fine.

It would not be unreasonable to houserule it to work, discuss it with your group.

**Liberal_Perturabo**

Well it's a different sitution with relics since a model can only have 1 relic anyway, unless it's rules state otherwise, and that's what prevents it from having multiple.
Limitations in this rule itself are doing it in the shooting phase, opting to not fire one of it's weapons to use it and being in base contact\embarked on vehicle you wish to repair. In this case it's just doing it twice.

**Ghaz**

Where do the rules permit you to use it twice?

**Kommissar Kel**

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
Well it's a different sitution with relics since a model can only have 1 relic anyway, unless it's rules state otherwise, and that's what prevents it from having multiple.
Limitations in this rule itself are doing it in the shooting phase, opting to not fire one of it's weapons to use it and being in base contact\embarked on vehicle you wish to repair. In this case it's just doing it twice.

It is exactly the same as with relics: a model may exchange one weapon for an item from the following list.

Or for the Arcana Mechanicum; "A model may take one of the following:". If you take both a mask of the alpha dominus and an uncreator gauntlet; then you have taken more than one of the following.

If you choose to not fire both weapons in the shooting phase for 2 attempts at repair; then you have not fired more than the one weapon the rule allows.

**col_impact**

I am not sure if it is as cut and dry as you keep claiming Kommissar Kel.

A Tech-Priest Dominus has 2 shooting weapons - a macrostubber and a volkite blaster

Master of Machines:

Spoiler:

MECHADENDRITE HARNESS

Spoiler:

This is how I understand the OP to be reading the rule . . .

So in the shooting phase, the Dominus goes to shoot a macrostubber but instead uses Master of Machines. Later in the shooting phase he goes to shoot the volkite blaster but instead uses Master of Machines.

It seems like a reasonable read to me. There is nothing in the Master of Machines rule to restrict the ability to use it twice like "once per shooting phase" or "instead of firing his weapons".

**Kommissar Kel**

And have you attempted to repair a single friendly vehicle, and/or restored a wound twice by not firing one weapon in your shooting phase?

No, you have not fired two weapons in your shooting phase.

Two and one are different numbers, and the rule only allows you to not fire one weapon.

**malamis**

1. Dominus has two shooting weapons
2. Mechadendrite harness allows for N shooting weapons to be used by an infantry model instead of the normal 1 shooting weapon per phase limitation, in this specific instance 2 as there are no relics that provide shooting attacks
3. Master of machines allows the model to exchange a shooting attack to repair or un-wound

I think we all agree on this so far.

A. Item 2. allows for a previously single occurrence action to be taken twice
B. item 3. allows an alternative action to be substituted for the shooting action by exchanging "one of his weapons"

∴

The techpriest can Master of Machines instead of firing weapon A, and the techpriest can Master of Machines instead of firing weapon B

The only way I can see the other position to be incontrovertible would be if it was phrased "once per shooting phase".

So as ever, agree with your opponent, ideally before the game if they care, and/or contact GW for a FAQ update.

**Ghaz**

malamis wrote:
1. Dominus has two shooting weapons
2. Mechadendrite harness allows for N shooting weapons to be used by an infantry model instead of the normal 1 shooting weapon per phase limitation, in this specific instance 2 as there are no relics that provide shooting attacks
3. Master of machines allows the model to exchange a shooting attack to repair or un-wound

I think we all agree on this so far.

A. Item 2. allows for a previously single occurrence action to be taken twice
B. item 3. allows an alternative action to be substituted for the shooting action by exchanging "one of his weapons"

∴

The techpriest can Master of Machines instead of firing weapon A, and the techpriest can Master of Machines instead of firing weapon B

Because otherwise it would have been phrased "once per shooting phase".

Your point 3 is incorrect. Master of the Machines allows the model to exchange the firing of one of his weapons. One is not two.

**malamis**

Ghaz wrote:
malamis wrote:
1. Dominus has two shooting weapons
2. Mechadendrite harness allows for N shooting weapons to be used by an infantry model instead of the normal 1 shooting weapon per phase limitation, in this specific instance 2 as there are no relics that provide shooting attacks
3. Master of machines allows the model to exchange a shooting attack to repair or un-wound

I think we all agree on this so far.

A. Item 2. allows for a previously single occurrence action to be taken twice
B. item 3. allows an alternative action to be substituted for the shooting action by exchanging "one of his weapons"

∴

The techpriest can Master of Machines instead of firing weapon A, and the techpriest can Master of Machines instead of firing weapon B

Because otherwise it would have been phrased "once per shooting phase".

Your point 3 is incorrect. Master of the Machines allows the model to exchange the firing of one of his weapons. One is not two.

I'm not contesting that he can only exchange one of his weapons per invocation of MoM, i'm contesting that he gets to trigger the same rule twice in the same phase to basically the same effect.

**Ghaz**

And where does it say you can use the rule twice? Page and paragraph please.

**malamis**

Ghaz wrote:
And where does it say you can use the rule twice? Page and paragraph please.

Where does it say you can't?

Shooting attacks, psychic attacks, movement and assault all have explicit assertions that they only occur once (with appropriate exceptions) during the respective phases. If you want i'll go digging them up but I'm pretty sure that's not the answer you're after, and you'll contend with my first sentence.

**Ghaz**

Where do the rules say I can't smash your models and claim I win automatically? The rules don't work that way. Warhammer 40K is a permissive rules set which tells you what you can do, not what you can't. So I repeat my question. Where do the rules allow you to use it twice? Page and paragraph please.

**Jacksmiles**

You can forgo one shooting attack to do another thing. Have you forgone one? Then you're done. Oh, you have another shooting attack, okay, take the shot. You already skipped one shooting attack to do the other thing, so that's done and dried up, now you do a shooting attack or nothing.

That's how I read the rule. It explicitly states one. Guess we're rolling off for it in-game

**Retrogamer0001**

"instead of firing one of his weapons"

This is all you need to read.

**malamis**

Ghaz wrote:
Where do the rules say I cant smash your models and claim I win automatically?

Section 52, Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 combined with the GamesWorkshopCode of conduct as posted in public at all venues i've played at - you'd be better at defining what one applies to your area.

Ghaz wrote:

The rules don't work that way.

Incorrect

BRB Pg 163 col 2 para2 (Eternal Warrior) wrote:
If a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound ... etc

Where, as written, does it say this can apply more than once per wound resolution (e.g. initiative step)? Should I only benefit from eternal warrior on the first smack from an activated Force axe and not the second? For that matter, where does it say you can use a unit's shooting attack more than once per game? I trust neither of us reads it this way.

Wargear and so on which allows a one off save, only applicable in a specific turn or phase or a 'use it and you lose it' all have it marked explicitly in their entries or corresponding single use provisions somewhere in their codex (with a few notable exceptions). When rules don't define the single use boundaries we assume it happens on every relevant occasion such as for Eternal Warrior, Shrouded, Strafing Run and Zealot for some skimmed examples.

Ghaz wrote:

Warhammer 40K is a permissive rules set which tells you what you can do, not what you can't.

We agree on that, we obviously don't agree that a special rule can be triggered more than once except when explicitly stated (for which nearly all of the USRs have the boundaries defined) , nor do we agree that MoM as written can be triggered more than once per shooting phase.

**Ghaz**

Sorry, but you're wrong. Rules are not laws. Rules tell you what you can do, not what you can't. Since you can't provide a rule that allows you to use Master of the Machine twice, you can't.

**blaktoof**

RAW there is only permission to e change one shooting attack for one repair attempt. There is no language that grants permission to use the rule n times per turn such as "for each shooting attack given up may make a repair attempt.". Or "may exchange a shooting attack for a repair attempt".

The rules specify one, Becerra you can do it one time per turn.

**col_impact**

The problem is the ability to shoot each weapon comes up at different times in the shooting sequence.

Per the rules of the Shooting Sequence the Dominus does not attempt to shoot all of his weapons at the same time.

Spoiler:

Because the Tech Priest has two weapons he actually has two opportunities to use Master of Machines instead of firing one of his weapons. There will be one opportunity on one iteration of steps 3-7 and another opportuniy on the other iteration of steps 3-7.

Blaktoof, the rule does not say "you can do it one time per turn"

Kommisar Kel, as I have shown, the occasion "of firing one of his weapons" comes up twice in the Shooting Sequence. You have to show that the rule says "once per shooting phase" or "once per turn".

I think possibly the intent of the rule is to restrict the rule to 'once per shooting phase'. However, that is not what the rules actually say. A strict RAW read supports the ability to use Master of Machines whenever Dominus has the opportunity to shoot one of his weapons, which is twice.

**Jacksmiles**

col_impact wrote:

I think possibly the intent of the rule is to restrict the rule to 'once per shooting phase'. However, a strict RAW read supports the ability to use Master of Machines whenever Dominus has the opportunity to shoot one of his weapons, which is twice.

A loose RAW read supports both sides. A strict RAW read sees the word "one" and stops after one occurrence.

**col_impact**

Jacksmiles wrote:
col_impact wrote:

I think possibly the intent of the rule is to restrict the rule to 'once per shooting phase'. However, a strict RAW read supports the ability to use Master of Machines whenever Dominus has the opportunity to shoot one of his weapons, which is twice.

A loose RAW read supports both sides. A strict RAW read sees the word "one" and stops after one occurrence.

Can you demonstrate how that works out with regards to the shooting sequence as I have done?

Also, the rules do not say that 'you can forego one shooting attack to do another thing' as you would have it. The rules actually say "instead of firing one of his weapon" which is an occasion that comes up twice in the Shooting Sequence.

**blaktoof**

col_impact wrote:
The problem is the ability to shoot each weapon comes up at different times in the shooting sequence.

Per the rules of the Shooting Sequence the Dominus does not attempt to shoot all of his weapons at the same time.

Spoiler:

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.

4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.

7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

Because the Tech Priest has two weapons he actually has two opportunities to use Master of Machines instead of firing one of his weapons. There will be one opportunity on one iteration of steps 3-7 and another opportuniy on the other iteration of steps 3-7.

Blaktoof, the rule does not say "you can do it one time per turn"

Kommisar Kel, as I have shown, the occasion "of firing one of his weapons" comes up twice in the Shooting Sequence. You have to show that the rule says "once per shooting phase" or "once per turn".

I think possibly the intent of the rule is to restrict the rule to 'once per shooting phase'. However, that is not what the rules actually say. A strict RAW read supports the ability to use Master of Machines whenever Dominus has the opportunity to shoot one of his weapons, which is twice.

In each of your Shooting phases, instead of firing one of his weapons (controlling player’s choice), a Tech-Priest Dominus can choose either to repair a single friendly vehicle that he is in base contact with or embarked upon, or to restore a Wound lost earlier in the battle

There is permission during the shooting phase (happens once per turn) to do something instead of firing one weapon. The one is singular. If you do two things instead of firing two weapons is different, just as doing something instead of firing a weapon. RAW says one, not for each, not for a, or not each time the model fires a weapon. The model can give up firing one weapon (players choice) [further showing you pick which weapon to not fire....as in One weapon is chosen as the RAW has stated] to do something.

Nothing grants permission to do it more than one time within that rule.

**col_impact**

blaktoof wrote:

There is permission during the shooting phase (happens once per turn) to do something instead of firing one weapon. The one is singular. If you do two things instead of firing two weapons is different, just as doing something instead of firing a weapon. RAW says one, not for each, not for a, or not each time the model fires a weapon. The model can give up firing one weapon (players choice) [further showing you pick which weapon to not fire....as in One weapon is chosen as the RAW has stated] to do something.

Nothing grants permission to do it more than one time within that rule.

You have that backwards. Nothing is restricting it from happening more than once in a shooting phase.

That's the problem.

The rule can happen "in each of your shooting phases" not "once per shooting phase".

If you march step by step through the Shooting Sequence as the rules explicitly require you to do you will have two fully legal occasions to use the Master of Machines rule.

**blaktoof**

The RAW says you get to repair something instead of firing one weapon, you get to pick the weapon.

Nothing says you can do it more than one time.

it can happen in each of your shooting phases instead of firing one weapon.

not in each of your shooting phases one time per weapon you choose to not fire.

The rules as written do not say what you are implying.

**col_impact**

blaktoof wrote:
The RAW says you get to repair something instead of firing one weapon, you get to pick the weapon.

Nothing says you can do it more than one time.

it can happen in each of your shooting phases instead of firing one weapon.

not in each of your shooting phases one time per weapon you choose to not fire.

The rules as written do not say what you are implying.

You are required to work it out in the context of the Shooting Sequence since that is the way models are allowed to shoot in the game.

Setting aside the Master of Machines rule for now, how many times in the Shooting Sequence is the Dominus firing one of his weapons?

Spoiler:

**Charistoph**

blaktoof wrote:
The RAW says you get to repair something instead of firing one weapon, you get to pick the weapon.

Nothing says you can do it more than one time.

it can happen in each of your shooting phases instead of firing one weapon.

not in each of your shooting phases one time per weapon you choose to not fire.

The rules as written do not say what you are implying.

Pretty much. "One" does not equal "all", "every", or "any number". Some people need to not remove math from their reading comprehension matrix and also read beyond one or two words they want to focus on.

**col_impact**

Charistoph wrote:

Pretty much. "One" does not equal "all", "every", or "any number". Some people need to not remove math from their reading comprehension matrix and also read beyond one or two words they want to focus on.

The same question can be directed at you then . . .

You are required to work it out in the context of the Shooting Sequence since that is the way models are allowed to shoot in the game.

Setting aside the Master of Machines rule for now, how many times in the Shooting Sequence is the Dominus 'firing one of his weapons'?

**doctortom**

col_impact wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
The RAW says you get to repair something instead of firing one weapon, you get to pick the weapon.

Nothing says you can do it more than one time.

it can happen in each of your shooting phases instead of firing one weapon.

not in each of your shooting phases one time per weapon you choose to not fire.

The rules as written do not say what you are implying.

You are required to work it out in the context of the Shooting Sequence since that is the way models are allowed to shoot in the game.

Setting aside the Master of Machines rule for now, how many times in the Shooting Sequence is the Dominus firing one of his weapons?

Spoiler:

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.

4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.

7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

Interesting that you put in red type "select A weapon", not "select ONE weapon". Being told you may replace firing one weapon means exactly that, firing one weapon. It does not mean replacing two weapons with something else twice. They would have used "a weapon" or "for up to as many weapons as you can fire" or something along those lines if they had meant for you to apply it more than once in the shooting phase. One means one. One is not two or more.

**col_impact**

doctortom wrote:

Interesting that you put in red type "select A weapon", not "select ONE weapon". Being told you may replace firing one weapon means exactly that, firing one weapon. It does not mean replacing two weapons with something else twice. They would have used "a weapon" or "for up to as many weapons as you can fire" or something along those lines if they had meant for you to apply it more than once in the shooting phase. One means one. One is not two or more.

Answer a simple question.

The Dominus has two shooting weapons. How many times in the Shooting Sequence is the Dominus 'firing one of his weapons'?

**doctortom**

col_impact wrote:
doctortom wrote:

Interesting that you put in red type "select A weapon", not "select ONE weapon". Being told you may replace firing one weapon means exactly that, firing one weapon. It does not mean replacing two weapons with something else twice. They would have used "a weapon" or "for up to as many weapons as you can fire" or something along those lines if they had meant for you to apply it more than once in the shooting phase. One means one. One is not two or more.

Answer a simple question.

The Dominus has two shooting weapons. How many times in the Shooting Sequence is the Dominus 'firing one of his weapons'?

Once. After he fires one of his weapons he fires the other of his weapons if he fires again.

Being told you may replace firing one weapon does not mean getting to replace firing multiple weapons with that action multiple times. From a rules standpoint, you are not allowed to make a "replace one" into "replace each" or "replace many". You are not told that you can replace each of his shooting attacks, only one of his shooting attacks.

You keep wanting to make 1 = 2.

Now, your turn. According to the words in the rule, how many shooting attacks may you replace - one, all, as many as you want up to what you can fire? There's only one right answer in that selection.