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Evening all,

I'm trying to pull together a decent tourney list using the Traitor's Hate book and my available models. Here's what I have so far:

Traitor's Hate (1848pts)

Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (Chaos CSM Black Crusade Detachment) (1481pts)

Core (981pts)

Chaos Warband (981pts)

··Chaos Bikers [4x Chaos Biker, 2x Flamer, Mark of Nurgle]
····Chaos Biker Champion [Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon]

··Chaos Lord [Bike, Blight grenades, Burning Brand of Skalanthrax, Mark of Nurgle, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption, Warlord]

··Chaos Space Marines [4x Chaos Marine with Boltgun, Plasma Gun, 4x Take CCW]
····Aspiring Champion [Plasma Pistol, Power Sword]

··Chaos Space Marines [4x Chaos Marine with Boltgun, Plasma Gun, 4x Take CCW]
····Aspiring Champion [Plasma Pistol, Power Sword]

··Chaos Terminators [Mark of Khorne]
····Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Axe]
····Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Axe]
····Chaos Terminator [Combi-melta, Power Axe]
····Terminator Champion [Combi-melta, Power Axe]

··Helbrute [Multi-melta]
····Power fist [Heavy flamer]

··Helbrute [Multi-melta]
····Power fist [Heavy flamer]

Command (160pts)

Lords of the Black Crusade (160pts) [Kharn the Betrayer]

Auxiliary (340pts)

Heldrake Terror Pack (340pts)
··Heldrake [Baleflamer]
··Heldrake [Baleflamer]

Cyclopia Cabal (367pts)
··Sorcerer [Additional Mastery Level, Combi-melta, Force Stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War]
··Sorcerer [Additional Mastery Level, Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Power Armour, Sigil of corruption, Veterans of the Long War]
··Sorcerer [Additional Mastery Level, Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Sigil of corruption, Veterans of the Long War]

I plan to have the Nurgle Bike Lord (Warlord), the Cyclopia Cabal and Kharn run with the Nurgle bikes - lots of look out sirs with high toughness and jinking to protect the warlord. Kharn also provides a 2+ deny the witch to this unit. The Black Crusade detachment benefits from objective secured and free VotLW for all units that can take it, as well as hatred (armies of the imperium).

The terminators will deep strike in to secure an objective as required, with the one-shot combi-melta to take out enemy vehicles. I had some spare points and settled on the MoK for the terminators to give them the extra attack on the charge/ receiving a charge . The helbrutes are there to provide additional anti-tank and fire support. The heldrakes will harass and clear MEQ units, making use of their formation abilities when available. Space marines will try to tough it out and hold objectives where possible.

With the 1850 points limit I've found it very difficult to get a decent, competitive list. I don't have a warpsmith (although I could proxy one) to make use of some of the other formations, but I feel the Chaos Warband with the Cyclopia Cabal is the way forward.

Any comments welcome!

Thanks,

A.

First of all, I'm noticing you don't have any transports for your foot Marines. Also, you're running Power Sword/Plasma Pistols on your guys. Why? That's 60 points burnt on single-wound models! If you drop the Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon, and the extra Close Combat Weapons, you have enough points to give them Rhinos and have a few points leftover. Downgrading to Meltaguns gives gets you a few points closer to equipping your Champions with Combi-Meltas instead, letting you more reliably deal with heavy armor.

Yeah I agree with Magicjuggler re adding rhinos and dropping power/plasma for sgts.

At 1850 points you are gonna run into D weapons. The strength of the warband is objective secured. May as well spam the multiple small units. Meltaguns are great in squads cause they can hurt anything.

Are the sorcerers cabal all on bikes?

My list at 1850 is similar, with a few tweaks. Last night I faced a 4 Riptide Tau list plus Storm surge, and came out ahead in a Maelstrom game. I believe in the power of Chaos, especially in Maelstrom!

Black Legion
Black Crusade Detachment
Chaos Lord on Bike, Mark of Nurgle, Hand of Darkness, Sigil of Corruption, VotLW
ML3 Sorc with Jetpack, Force Staff, Spell Familiar, VotLW
3x Terminator, 3xCombiPlas, Sword on Champ, 2x Power Axe, VotLW
3xBikes, 2x Melta VotLW
5xHavocs, 4xAutocannon, Rhino, VotLW
2x5 CSM, 1xMelta, Rhino, VotLW

Command
3x ML3 Sorcerer with Jumppack, Force Axe, Spell Familiar, VotLW

Auxiliary
5xChaos Spawn, Mark of Nurgle

Air Superiority Detachment
Khorne Daemonkin
2x Heldrake

This list gives you possible 1st turn charge, reroll charge distances on your star, 12+d6 Warp charges, a nasty Lord in CC, and Blood Tithe possibilities!

I don't think its a perfect list yet, but it has some great flexibility, along with units that cannot be ignored. I want to put it against a gladius next, and then tweak it for Eldar.

Cheers folks - I had a chat with the local "hobby killer", who has given me a few pointers on a horrible death-star "blob" list:

Cyclopia Cabal:

4x ML3 Sorcerors w/ spell familiars, force staves and bikes
1x ML3 Sorceror w/ spell familiar, force stave and jump-pack (for charge distance re-rolls)

Combined Arms Detachment:

HQ:

Huron Blackheart (for D3 infiltrating units)
Kharn (for silliness)

Troop:

2x CSM (5 man) w/ melta gun and rhino

Elite:

10x Terminators w/ combi-meltas, power mauls, 2x power-fist, 1x chainfist

Fast Attack:

3x Bikes w/ 2x melta guns and MoK (just because I had the points)

1849 pts if memory serves...

For this to work, my opponents (and tourney rules) would have to permit me to proxy Huron with another chaos model. Also, my terminators have various load-outs, so similarly proxying would need to be OK.

Tactics wise, at least one Rhino unit will be infiltrated as close to the enemy as possible. Provided I get first turn, or it survives a turn, I would use Soulswitch to swap my deathstar blob, consisting of: Huron, Kharn, 4 bike sorcerors, 1 jump sorceror and 10 terminators in the psychic phase, then (hopefully) have a first turn charge.

My 16 WC points per turn should allow me to buff my unit (daemonology - hammerhand etc) and worry my opponents.

I'll not win any friends, but considering I've brought a fluffy nurgle CAD to every tourney so far, with varying success, I'm just embracing tourney power play on this occasion :-)

Cheers,

A.

Looks much better this time, but here's one problem -- Master of Ambush won't affect vehicles, they have be units of type Infantry.

You're allin on the idea of first turn charge, and if you don't get it, then what? You can't hide a squad of 5 marines as easily as you can hide a single Sorcerer with a jumppack, and in the era of AP2, your terminators are no better than bullet sponges, expensive bullet sponges. Spawn cost just as much, but have 3 wounds and T6!

I think you have too many Force Staves, 1 or 2 is enough. I prefer Axes, but I think there's something to be said for using Force Swords, especially since you're fielding 5 Sorcerers. There's just one point i'd like you to consider.

You are running a Combined Arms Detachment. 2 HQ, 2 Troop, 1 Elite, 1FA. Your Command Benefits are rerolling Warlord Traits, and Objective Secured on your troops units. Why are you bothering to do this?

Traitor's Hate has the Black Crusade Detachment, which means that everything in the Chaos Warband is Objective Secured. This would include Huron, the Terminators, AND the Bike Squad. I cannot emphasize how much bigger these benefits are! You can refit your whole army into the detachment as well, because the Black Crusade Detachment can also take the Sorcerers as Command choices - 0-5 selections. The strength of the Cyclopia Cabal isn't the added formation's spell, it's the ability to take up to 5 Sorcerer Characters.

Take a look at the advantages you're giving up -- not to mention, your Cabal needs to be Black Legion, which means they need to spend 5pts on Veterans of the Long war. If you are a Black Crusade Detachment with Black Legion Chaos Space Marines as your faction, you can take this upgrade for free on all your units! Every advantage your army had before is in the Black Crusade Detachment and more!

Good shout - I'll take a look...

Regarding vehicles, dedicated transports can infiltrate with their unit. Way I see it, if I don't get to go first in turn 1, my opponent likely has to pop both rhinos and kill all occupants to stop a turn 1 assault in my turn.

For the black legion detachment, I have to take 2 marine squads and a unit of havocs, as well as athe least one bike unit and a unit of spawn. It's a hefty tax to pay, and given that this army is built to table an opponent, objective control is not as important.

Cheers,

AndyC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, colour me surprised!

I've been able to get everything into a Black Crusade Detachment. The tournament I'm playing only permits 2 detachments, but isn't allowing the psychic powers from Traitor's Hate or Angels of Death/ Angel's Blade. That being the case, I think it's still worth having the librarians in a separate Cyclopia Cabal to have access to the Shroud of Deceit, despite having to pay the VotLW tax. I've had to do a bit of jiggery pokery (adding Spawn as Auxilliary) but the overall effect is nice - ObjSec spawn? Yes please! I do have to rethink my tactics though if Soulswitch isn't available.

As it stands, the list is 1850 pts on the nose, comprised of:

BC Detachment:

Core:
- Kharn
- 2x 5 man CSM squads with Rhinos - no additional options
- 1x 5 man Havoc squad - no additional options
- 1x 3 man Bike squad - 2x melta guns
- 1x 10 man Terminator squad - 9x combi-meltas, 1x heavy flamer, 1x chainfist, 8x power mauls

Command:
- Huron

Auxilliary:
- 5x Spawn - mark of nurgle

Cyclopia Cabal:
- 4x Sorcerors - chaos bikes, spell familiars, force staves.

In retrospect, having seen the rule pack for the tournament, as this army is very dependent upon the Soulswitch power, I need to think again about how best to use this build.

NB. The rule pack is also limiting use of Super Heavy and Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures, so there won't be as many str D weapons going about.

Any suggestions welcome!

Cheers,

A.

is Shroud of Deceit worth 20pts? Because that's literally what you're paying for that power. Put the Sorcerers as Command Choices - use one as an HQ Choice in your Core Choice so that he receives Objective Secured. The Cyclopia Cabal is not necessary. Choose one Sorcerer to wield a force staff, he usually rolls on Biomancy unless the others are unable to roll up Invisibility. Give the others Force Axes for S5 AP2!

How you are planning on dealing with objective secured lists like the Gladius? You have minimal ability to deal with MSU!

Now that you're only 1 Detachment, you have other options, such as an Air Superiority Detachment. Bring in the Heldrakes! 2 Heldrakes in an Air Superiority Detachment will dominate the skies and deal effectively with MSU.

Give that Havoc squad a Rhino! 35pts Objective Secured vehicles are too good to pass up!

The Terminators squad is a big huge point sink. It has 8 AP1 shots at BS4. Grav weapons are going to destroy your terminators if you aren't able to roll Invisibility. Power Mauls on Terminators is not a good choice. Consider Swords or Axes.

I do not believe Kharn is a good selection for this list. Especially if Soulswitch is not available.