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I started playing 2 years ago and I've tested my skills against every armies aside from the Tyranids. Be it a win or loss it was tons of fun.

Nevertheless when it come down to Eldars I just can't find a way to enjoy myself. They are simply too strong. It's way too easy to make a very powerful list that overpower your opponent.

So after some grumbling on a facebook channel I thought ok it must be me: I play against players in different cities and quite a few of them play tournaments on a national level so I checked around toroughtly: everyone agree the Eldars are a different category of cheese by themselves. And I'm like w**. Ok.. so I'm not weird to not have any fun when I play against that army.

But damn. Why did they made them that way? Or is there something you should do against them that escape like, the 40-50 players I checked with on forums and in person? By the way it amazed me that the community managed to agree on anything with a single voice but putting that aside, how do you deal with them?

I'm comfortable with leaving that army take dust on the shelves (God do they deserve it) but one or two of the players who appreciate them (and complain nobody want to play against Eldars..) deserve to have their fun too. I just don't know how to make it worth my while a minimum.

Any comments and suggestion are welcome.

Ask for casual games?

I recently made an Ulthwe-inspired list that a friend (new to the game so maybe 2 total games) tabled with Blood Angels. Your local meta might lean a bit more towards competative?

A quick question, just to narrow down possible answers: how many different builds have you and those players have played against? And by different I don't mean "one more/less Wraithknight/Warp Spider squad/scatterbike squad variants of the same core netlists", but genuinely different builds from Craftworld codex (plus forgeworld units/build options or Harlequin/DE allies).

The main problem with Eldar is that they have a couple of very universal and spammable units (scatbikes and Warp Spiders) and one heavily undercosted GMC, which alone can win most games in a very dull and repetetive fashion. But there is a ton of fun builds possible (especially with Forgeworld's Pale Courts Hosts), but they are usually "suboptimal" and require a "fun at all costs" attitude from the Eldar player himself. So you will rarely see them in tournaments and in competetive setting. Especially given that many of those builds require a lot of resin models (finecast or forgeworld) and a lot of Eldar product line is quite old, while the most universal "ballance offenders" are readily available on the shelves of most shops and have the most recent models...

The other explanation of Eldar power level is, that there is a core concept behind all of the armies in 40K. And the concept behind the Eldar army flavour was always to have very specialized and efficient but costly and small units. So, if the local tournament meta consists of mostly Space Marine armies, it is easy to build an anti-armour focused army. But, in theory, the very same army should struggle against horde armies. Same principle applies if the faction of your opponent is known beforehand - it is quite natural to "list tailor" with Eldar, because most units are (theoretically) made with a single task focus. But all that is a theory, because units like modern Warp Spiders and scatterbikes do not fit the theme and break the army balance - they are to universal on the tabletop. But the scatterbikes are really necessary for the Saim Hann fluff, because (again, in theory) Saim Hann shouldn't have acces to half of the codex...

...which brings me straight to my last point: Eldar are so overpowered, because GW never made any real effort to divide Eldar Craftworlds into separate codices as they did with special snowflake chapters of SM, and the whole variety of possible fluffy builds exist within a single codex without any limitations (Craftworld Eldar are their own superfriends/battle brothers shenanigans really) and most players don't give a crap about fluff but instead build the strongest list they legally can.

One last example of why Eldar are powergamers dream come true faction [the attitude that is then (often unconsiously) picked up by many new players (often genuinely interested in Eldar fluff and flavour) just by looking at the top tournament lists...] - Forgeworld Pale Courts are a partial attempt at solving the fluffy craftworlds variety limitations in the main codex (from the fluffy Eldar player perspective), but all that is used from Pale Courts idea by tournament powergamers is the ability to spam Warp Spiders...

I started playing at the start of 7th and picked eldar cause space elves are awesome. After a year and a half of getting "the look" no matter what kind of list I brought. Which sucks for people who wanna play casually(i'm a WAAC kind of player but i ask to what level of competitiveness they want to play and adjust accordingly) cause even a non optimized eldar list is still heaps above the rest.

So I was left with a choice, quit warhammer due to Noone willing to play eldar. Or switch armies.

As I'm addicted to rolling dice I now play chaos(daemonkin, demons, and a splash of black legions cabal stuff). Which just from the army people like to play me more even if I bring stupid stuff such as Screamerstar or the tetrad. Daemonkin are a nice balance of competitiveness and casual play so I tend to play a lot of that lately

It was a craftworld detachement. 6 bikes/psyker, 1 flyer/psyker, 2 fire prims (those things cost only 120 pts?..) My doomdday ark cost 170 and the prism are better!

Aside from that he had another psyker and it was a fest of buff and psychic attacks. He had of course few infantry units, it was a game of 1000 pts.

I didn't try to snap shot the flyer enough and it ended up killing a huge chunk of my army. I had 2 doomsday ark, a cad which didn't helped neither. I didn't had the right army at all but it had served me well so far.

Sluggfest wrote:
It was a craftworld detachement. 6 bikes/psyker, 1 flyer/psyker, 2 fire prims (those things cost only 120 pts?..) My doomdday ark cost 170 and the prism are better!

Aside from that he had another psyker and it was a fest of buff and psychic attacks. He had of course few infantry units, it was a game of 1000 pts.

I didn't try to snap shot the flyer enough and it ended up killing a huge chunk of my army. I had 2 doomsday ark, a cad which didn't helped neither. I didn't had the right army at all but it had served me well so far.

First, on Doomsday vs Fire Prism: you have 4HP (regenerating) vs 3HP, slightly better armour values with quantuum shielding and you cannot be glanced to death by s4 weapons on the rear (but ark is open topped, so has it's own drawbacks). Main guns are somewhat comparable, with Doomsday being better in anti-armour duty, while prism is a good all-rounder. And you have good, stock anti-infantry secondary weapons. Prism is 125pts bare, with additional 15pts for holofields to even survivability and 10pts for Shuriken Cannon to increase it's anti-infantry/anti medium armour capabilities. So it is 170pts vs 150 with slightly different offence/defence accents between the two. I really cannot see how any of those two are supperior/inferior against eachother in point efficiency...

His flyer was a Hemlock? In my experience it usually underperforms but is fun to play, and it's usefullness massively depends on your unit placement, as it usually looses a turn or two of shooting due to limited manouverability, so it is usually a flying Psychic Shriek platform with some added usefulness (much of it if you roll Invisibility). From my personal experience, if you don't have skyfire it is best to just ignore flyers if you have any other decent/priority targets in range.

I assume, that his bikes were all scatterbikes and that his infantry units were either Warp Spiders or Fire Draogns/Dark Reapers mixed in an Aspect Host since you mention another non-jetbike psyker to tag along? Have you played on terrain heavy table or just a couple of ruin pieces scattered around?

If all of this guessing is correct, you've played against a fairly competetive build with some good rolls on psychic powers. I know Necrons only theoretically (I've read their codex a couple of times as I intend to start a Necron army one day) but I think that they can put up a good fight against such build and this is nowhere near a single-sided stomp...

[quote First, on Doomsday vs Fire Prism: you have 4HP (regenerating) vs 3HP, slightly better armour values with quantuum shielding and you cannot be glanced to death by s4 weapons on the rear (but ark is open topped, so has it's own drawbacks). Main guns are somewhat comparable, with Doomsday being better in anti-armour duty, while prism is a good all-rounder. And you have good, stock anti-infantry secondary weapons. Prism is 125pts bare, with additional 15pts for holofields to even survivability and 10pts for Shuriken Cannon to increase it's anti-infantry/anti medium armour capabilities. So it is 170pts vs 150 with slightly different offence/defence accents between the two. I really cannot see how any of those two are supperior/inferior against eachother in point efficiency...

His flyer was a Hemlock? In my experience it usually underperforms but is fun to play, and it's usefullness massively depends on your unit placement, as it usually looses a turn or two of shooting due to limited manouverability, so it is usually a flying Psychic Shriek platform with some added usefulness (much of it if you roll Invisibility). From my personal experience, if you don't have skyfire it is best to just ignore flyers if you have any other decent/priority targets in range.

I assume, that his bikes were all scatterbikes and that his infantry units were either Warp Spiders or Fire Draogns/Dark Reapers mixed in an Aspect Host since you mention another non-jetbike psyker to tag along? Have you played on terrain heavy table or just a couple of ruin pieces scattered around?

If all of this guessing is correct, you've played against a fairly competetive build with some good rolls on psychic powers. I know Necrons only theoretically (I've read their codex a couple of times as I intend to start a Necron army one day) but I think that they can put up a good fight against such build and this is nowhere near a single-sided stomp...

Sluggfest wrote:

...
- The guy didn't took any upgrade so it was still much cheaper for a better mobile artillery platform that can pop force D strenght hits.
...
His flyer managed to wipe out half of my 1000 pts. Many psychic attacks, force D weapon plus others. All of that for a ridiculous cost again.
...

Fire Prism don't have strenght D, so I don't know what the first line is about...

Hemlock starts the game in reserves and cannot enter before turn 2, then it usually has 2 usefull rounds of shooting (and due to limited manouverability it is very hard to shoot same unit twice) with str D-1 (not full D), each turn at a single target dead ahead and the only stock usefull power it gets and does not have to have luck to roll is Psychic Shriek or Conceal (giving him and him only Shrouded). All that for 185 pts. It is hardly a "ridiculous cost"... I play with Hemlock often (like 30+ games with it), as I like the idea of a Psychic flyer, but it hardly ever gets it's points back if you don't field some perfect, high value targets. Judging from my experience, you just had bad luck in this game or made some bad unit placement mistakes if a single Hemlock took more that 250pts of your army.

But don't get me wrong - I don't think that either Fire Prisms or Hemlocks are crap/underpowered/ignorable units - they are solid and usefull, but hardly broken or seriously underpriced (if at all) in comparison to other top tier codices. My posts are mostly written as a way of showing you some exploitable limitations of Eldar units (it is realy very easy to outmanouver Hemlock), as you express have a strong bias against Eldar, while you seem to have limited experience with them... Each of your Doomsday Arks can obliterate one entire unit of any non-vechicle unit a turn, including ID any characters (Eldar have T3 or 4 max, so even with small blasts, but pivoting on the spot does not count as moving), so it is to be expected, that they will be primary targets in each and every game that your opponent gets first turn.

The only obviously OP unit you mentioned are scatterbikes, but everyone knows that and they can be (and utill GW changes them, they have to be) learnt to play against.

I would advise you to play a couple of games with exactly same armies and see how different games you'll get depending on dice rolls, unit placement, terrain and turn order... Learn to play against them, learn their weaknesses/priority targets etc - there is a lesson somewhere in every beating taken. I would understand your "Eldar are unplayable against and unfun" if you were playing any "crap tier" army, but not with Necrons. And if all you expect from this thread is to confirm your POV, that you have no means to beat such OP bull gak army, then I simply cannot be of any further assistance.

That said - EOT for me. Cheers!

nou wrote:

Sluggfest wrote:

...
- The guy didn't took any upgrade so it was still much cheaper for a better mobile artillery platform that can pop force D strenght hits.
...
His flyer managed to wipe out half of my 1000 pts. Many psychic attacks, force D weapon plus others. All of that for a ridiculous cost again.
...

Fire Prism don't have strenght D, so I don't know what the first line is about...

Hemlock starts the game in reserves and cannot enter before turn 2, then it usually has 2 usefull rounds of shooting (and due to limited manouverability it is very hard to shoot same unit twice) with str D-1 (not full D), each turn at a single target dead ahead and the only stock usefull power it gets and does not have to have luck to roll is Psychic Shriek or Conceal (giving him and him only Shrouded). All that for 185 pts. It is hardly a "ridiculous cost"... I play with Hemlock often (like 30+ games with it), as I like the idea of a Psychic flyer, but it hardly ever gets it's points back if you don't field some perfect, high value targets. Judging from my experience, you just had bad luck in this game or made some bad unit placement mistakes if a single Hemlock took more that 250pts of your army.

But don't get me wrong - I don't think that either Fire Prisms or Hemlocks are crap/underpowered/ignorable units - they are solid and usefull, but hardly broken or seriously underpriced (if at all) in comparison to other top tier codices. My posts are mostly written as a way of showing you some exploitable limitations of Eldar units (it is realy very easy to outmanouver Hemlock), as you express have a strong bias against Eldar, while you seem to have limited experience with them... Each of your Doomsday Arks can obliterate one entire unit of any non-vechicle unit a turn, including ID any characters (Eldar have T3 or 4 max, so even with small blasts, but pivoting on the spot does not count as moving), so it is to be expected, that they will be primary targets in each and every game that your opponent gets first turn.

The only obviously OP unit you mentioned are scatterbikes, but everyone knows that and they can be (and utill GW changes them, they have to be) learnt to play against.

I would advise you to play a couple of games with exactly same armies and see how different games you'll get depending on dice rolls, unit placement, terrain and turn order... Learn to play against them, learn their weaknesses/priority targets etc - there is a lesson somewhere in every beating taken. I would understand your "Eldar are unplayable against and unfun" if you were playing any "crap tier" army, but not with Necrons. And if all you expect from this thread is to confirm your POV, that you have no means to beat such OP bull gak army, then I simply cannot be of any further assistance.

That said - EOT for me. Cheers!

If you are getting 2 rounds of use out of your Hemlock you are doing something wrong. Hemlock has Vector Dancer and with Death from the Skies it can also break turn on a roll of 5 or less... I can enter the table at round 2 and hit the same unit until game ends without leaving the table again. Shriek needs no roll to hit, and if you roll Horrify/Embloden on runes of Battle, shriek alone will wreak havoc. Also mindshock pods are cumulative with each other and I have watched multiple times enemies run when I have two hemlocks over them. Hemlocks aren't undercosted but they can prove a major pain in the butt if you don't get rid of them.

I've been having fun running Highlander lists recently (in prep for Da Boyz in November).

That being said - it's a GT so I'm bringing whatever I can to win. My list is made up of 3 Detachments, 1 being an Eldar CAD. I mean, why wouldn't I include the cheapest and most efficient Super Heavy in the game?

My CAD is a Farseer, 3 Scat Bikes (1 Warlock attached), 5 Rangers, and a Wraithknight.

It's almost as barebones as you can get a CAD - though most would take 2x3 Scat bikes (if they weren't playing Highlander).

Even in Highlander, there is barely any tax and everything has a role. With this minimal amount of Eldar, it gives me a tool for any weaknesses the rest of my army possesses.

For the most part, my frienemies haven't hated the Eldar inclusion in my list but I'm barely skimming the minimum of a CAD.

Eldar is ridiculous atm but I do enjoy myself a competitive matchup. I don't mind playing against Eldar but I do get pretty upset when Obsec Scats move 48" on Turn5 and take a win away from me.

As an eldar player who plays very competitive type games(generally in itc format) I can tell you that the only truly Broken or underrcosted guys in the eldar army are Scatterbikes, Warp Spiders, and wraithknights. Literally everything else can be shredded by s5 guns for even the toughest of dudes in the codex, glass cannon is the name of the game and the above units just happen to be the most point efficient for what they put out and ability to survive the counter shooting. Anything else you take has hard counters and just takes a decent general to play to know what to take care of first.

Ecdain wrote:
As an eldar player who plays very competitive type games(generally in itc format) I can tell you that the only truly Broken or underrcosted guys in the eldar army are Scatterbikes, Warp Spiders, and wraithknights. Literally everything else can be shredded by s5 guns for even the toughest of dudes in the codex, glass cannon is the name of the game and the above units just happen to be the most point efficient for what they put out and ability to survive the counter shooting. Anything else you take has hard counters and just takes a decent general to play to know what to take care of first.

I'd argue you should of added Farseers to the list.

Rough points math: 25 pts per Mastery Level (when you buy them as upgrades).
Farseers are base ML3 - 75 points

Farseers come stock 115. (Let's face it, you bought the Eldar Bike)

That leaves you with 40 pts for 3 T4, 3+//4++ wounds. That's 15 pts per wound with 3+/4++ that can move 48" a turn and still cast powers. To compare to MEQ ppw, that is 1 pt less than a marine AND you get a 4++ save. Don't forget - I already included a bike.

I didn't even mention the fact that you can pick and choose any and all WC dice when casting and denying once per phase. It's insane to not include them into under-costed models.

---

Libby comparsion:
65 pts base (-50 pts for ML2)
15 pts base for a 2-wound MEQ. Roughly 8 pts per wound. 8 ppw (Libby) VS 13 ppw (Farseer).
(If you include the bike, its 35 pts. 5 away from a Farseer. You gain T5 and "some" speed, but still "slow". - This is where PPW start lining up a little bit more)

However, you lose the 4++ and 48" movement (only 6"+d6"//12"+12"). The difference between ML2 and ML3 when rolling up powers AND the reroll failed casts die are immeasurable (imo).

Saythings wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
As an eldar player who plays very competitive type games(generally in itc format) I can tell you that the only truly Broken or underrcosted guys in the eldar army are Scatterbikes, Warp Spiders, and wraithknights. Literally everything else can be shredded by s5 guns for even the toughest of dudes in the codex, glass cannon is the name of the game and the above units just happen to be the most point efficient for what they put out and ability to survive the counter shooting. Anything else you take has hard counters and just takes a decent general to play to know what to take care of first.

I'd argue you should of added Farseers to the list.

Rough points math: 25 pts per Mastery Level (when you buy them as upgrades).
Farseers are base ML3 - 75 points

Farseers come stock 115. (Let's face it, you bought the Eldar Bike)

That leaves you with 40 pts for 3 T4, 3+//4++ wounds. That's 15 pts per wound with 3+/4++ that can move 48" a turn and still cast powers. To compare to MEQ ppw, that is 1 pt less than a marine AND you get a 4++ save. Don't forget - I already included a bike.

I didn't even mention the fact that you can pick and choose any and all WC dice when casting and denying once per phase. It's insane to not include them into under-costed models.

---

Libby comparsion:
65 pts base (-50 pts for ML2)
15 pts base for a 2-wound MEQ. Roughly 8 pts per wound. 8 ppw (Libby) VS 13 ppw (Farseer).
(If you include the bike, its 35 pts. 5 away from a Farseer. You gain T5 and "some" speed, but still "slow". - This is where PPW start lining up a little bit more)

However, you lose the 4++ and 48" movement (only 6"+d6"//12"+12"). The difference between ML2 and ML3 when rolling up powers AND the reroll failed casts die are immeasurable (imo).

You're totally right, I frequently comment on how my farseers are the most point efficient psykers in the game. Just forgot about them I think cause they normally aren't the crux of the argument.

Sluggfest wrote:
I started playing 2 years ago and I've tested my skills against every armies aside from the Tyranids. Be it a win or loss it was tons of fun.

Nevertheless when it come down to Eldars I just can't find a way to enjoy myself. They are simply too strong. It's way too easy to make a very powerful list that overpower your opponent.

So after some grumbling on a facebook channel I thought ok it must be me: I play against players in different cities and quite a few of them play tournaments on a national level so I checked around toroughtly: everyone agree the Eldars are a different category of cheese by themselves. And I'm like w**. Ok.. so I'm not weird to not have any fun when I play against that army.

But damn. Why did they made them that way? Or is there something you should do against them that escape like, the 40-50 players I checked with on forums and in person? By the way it amazed me that the community managed to agree on anything with a single voice but putting that aside, how do you deal with them?

I'm comfortable with leaving that army take dust on the shelves (God do they deserve it) but one or two of the players who appreciate them (and complain nobody want to play against Eldars..) deserve to have their fun too. I just don't know how to make it worth my while a minimum.

Any comments and suggestion are welcome.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the best trolling attempt so far to get the forum's nerves up.

I've found scatbike/wraithknight eldar netlists to be easier to win against in general than Daemon or Space marine competitive lists. That is principally due to the matchups (I play very mobile melee focused, generally with moderate psychic presence) because an army that can just spam tons and tons of units and just keep rolling at me is much harder to deal with than something I can take down if I get to it. The closest thing I have to competitive lists are a harlequin-focused freakshow and a War Convocation. With Convocation, your typical Eldar list tends to get chunked pretty hard by Grav Kataphrons and phosphor fire, basically the less warp spiders you see the better your matchup is going to be. Harlequins make the game tricky, but pretty interesting, and the best counters to eldar shenanigans tend to come in the psyker and troupe melee department if you can get there.

Now, if you're opponent is not being a dickbag and just bringing the standard warp spiders/wraithknights/windriders, the Eldar change to what they're actually supposed to be as an army: relatively fragile specialists backed up by durable generalist tanks. The counter to them tends to be positioning your units in such a way that their specialists cannot kill the units they are intended to, and focusing firepower to kill the infantry, avoiding using a ton of effort to try and take out the tanks because they are pretty tough for their points costs, but tend to do less damage for their costs.

the_scotsman wrote:
Now, if you're opponent is not being a dickbag and just bringing the standard warp spiders/wraithknights/windriders, the Eldar change to what they're actually supposed to be as an army: relatively fragile specialists backed up by durable generalist tanks. The counter to them tends to be positioning your units in such a way that their specialists cannot kill the units they are intended to, and focusing firepower to kill the infantry, avoiding using a ton of effort to try and take out the tanks because they are pretty tough for their points costs, but tend to do less damage for their costs.

This is the answer here. This kills my Biel-Tan host every time.

I would say that Wraiths are a bit different, but they usually fall under durable generalist forces and are decently slow for the most part (unless they are part of the spirit host formation), but they are pretty high points cost. Yeah, I know every body hates the D, but I think a lot of that is due to D being a hard counter to a lot of stuff and being pretty decent at killing most other things. That said, without a ton of the flamer guys... horde army counters.

Sluggfest wrote:
I started playing 2 years ago and I've tested my skills against every armies aside from the Tyranids. Be it a win or loss it was tons of fun.

Nevertheless when it come down to Eldars I just can't find a way to enjoy myself. They are simply too strong. It's way too easy to make a very powerful list that overpower your opponent.

So after some grumbling on a facebook channel I thought ok it must be me: I play against players in different cities and quite a few of them play tournaments on a national level so I checked around toroughtly: everyone agree the Eldars are a different category of cheese by themselves. And I'm like w**. Ok.. so I'm not weird to not have any fun when I play against that army.

But damn. Why did they made them that way? Or is there something you should do against them that escape like, the 40-50 players I checked with on forums and in person? By the way it amazed me that the community managed to agree on anything with a single voice but putting that aside, how do you deal with them?

I'm comfortable with leaving that army take dust on the shelves (God do they deserve it) but one or two of the players who appreciate them (and complain nobody want to play against Eldars..) deserve to have their fun too. I just don't know how to make it worth my while a minimum.

Any comments and suggestion are welcome.

Well I mean... i have a similar problem. i do beat them just as regularly as any other army to be frank but they are the least fun to do it against because the losses ten d to feel so much worse (even though in the end its just a loss). The wins feel like grinders.

One thing i would say about this. The Eldar CAN field the gold standard, and the reality...not perception...is that there always WILL be a gold standard. It is admittedly strange that GW made Eldar that given their imperium-centric view but they did and here we are so if it wasn't Eldar it would be Space marines or something else just as odious.

So here is what I would do. I'm being honst. i would tailor the hell out of your list to beat the gold standard, whatever it is. I just would. Realism trumps idealism. There is a point at which you just have to admit that to win you need the tools. Intentionally denying yourself the tools is probably not a formula for success.

You need a fast assault unit that can drop in and attack that turn. Space marines, Blood Angels and Chaos marines have them. ally it in if you must. that takes care of Warp Spiders and/or jetbikes and possibly both eventually. you need soemthing AP 3 that ignores cover if theres a way to get it. lots of armies do this in various ways or with various Psyker Powers. it's a very important component to consider. Killing a wraithKnight with shooting is really important. Every army has it. its annoying to have to commit so much firepower t oit but thats the way it is. And having Concussion in the shooting phase is money against WraithKnights.

So you need something that has concussion to shoot the WraithKnight with, something to assault it afterwards once its softened up a bit by shooting and you need droppy guys with great melee to kill Warp spiders and then some ignore cover magic somewhere. give it a shot. I mean I dont know the exact army you're facing but i can guess its an aspect host of Spiders, Scatterbikes, Wraithknight and probably the D-Cannons or something like that. It writes itself as a list.

eldar can be beaten and more and more has come out that plays well to their weakness. they really are squishy with one notable exception and they really do die like flies if you can just ignore their jinks. it's just something you have to kind of craft around (while also making sure it works against other forces that are tougher and less reliant on Eldar shenanigans in favor of their own equally annoying shenanigans).

anyways, good luck. Even if having fun playing them isn't as easy, beating them will definitely ease the pain. =)

I think making them jink is more useful than ignoring their jinks.