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I am looking to build a harlequin army and I am wondering how good the harlequin characters, specifically the shadowseers, really are. The Shadowseers stats on the charge are pretty beastly with 5 s6 fleshbane, concussive attacks. But the lack of AP means a standard harlequin with a caress will probably kill more MEQs. The main draw of a shadowseer is its powers. Veil of tears means they can not shoot you unless you are within charging range and the thought of psychic shriek is tantalizing but probably not that great in practice as you have to first spend the warp charges, then actually hit them with a bs4 shot, make sure you are not denied and then role high enough to do some damage. Yes it has very high potential but probably not get in actual practice.

So my first set of questions are:
How often can you get veil of tears off? If I have 3 shadow seers how often will all three units be veiled?
How does the protection gained from veil compare to the protection and increase mobility of a starweaver?
Should the shadow seer be level 1 or level 2?
Should points be spent protecting your troupe or should you just buy a second troupe?

When looking at the death jester I was not impressed. His main weapon is extremely unreliable and it only has okay potential. Now that there is a shrouded death seer maybe he is worth taking. Shrouded in cover doubles the harlequins survivablity. Is this a reason to make a large troupe on foot?

Finally the solitaire, do I get him from the hero's path? Infiltrate as stealth and shrouding means he can some out of some crazy places and lay down the hurt. If that better than to have him lay back for a few turns before he charges forward to wreck face? Is the death jester and shadow seer tax worth it?

Hi. I have been playing mono-harlequins for a few months now, so I will try to answer your questions, and share some of my experiences with them.
So, first if you only have 3 shadowseers, then you can expect at least one unit failing to get the Veil. 3 seers only get you a guaranteed 7 dice, and you need 4 to reliably cast veil. if you get more, then you are giving your opponent dice to deny, and any smart opponent will focus on denying one of your attempts to cast it (usually the one you cast with 1 success). So, if you plan to run troupes on foot, i recommend at least 5 seers, all level 2. And that answers your 4th question. If you have the points, always level 2 (and one with the mask, no excuses ).
Now, on the other hand, shadowseers are awesome, and not just because of their psy powers. They are very versatile, and really good in combat. They hurt everything with a toughness value, can wreck any vehicles that is not a walker (especially if you give them a haywire grenade to throw before they go charge), pin enemies to deny overwatch, and do run, cast witchfire, run shenanigans (by the way psy shriek hits automatically according to the new Faq). In my opinion their miststave is better then the caress, cause with the caress you need 6s to hit to really hurt something, while the stave will force a lot of saves.
Now, between the veil and starweaver? I find myself running the troupes in weavers, but mostly because the added mobility. The veil provides better protection, cause it denies any long ranged damage period, and your opponent might not risk the roll when you are in the 18-24 inch range. But that means, he will just shoot your other units, till you get close, and you will have to get close. Even with run and charge, you will have to be around 16-20 inches away from your intended target at the beginning of their turn to get into a reliable charge range, and that assumes that your target doesn't just move away from you. The extra 6 inch move from the weaver helps a lot with this. On the other hand, the weaver provides a rather dubious protection. It is way to easy to destroy. If it explodes, then it will kill half the guys inside, if it only becomes a wreck, then your T3 5++ saves guys are out in the open, without any real protection. Positioning is key here. If you can hide the starweaver behind Los blocking terrain then do so, otherwise always stay near cover, so you can disembark into it, if the weaver gets destroyed.
The last question, I don't understand. You can't buy protective equipment for the troupes. If you meant the seer or weaver, then I think it is always better to buy one of those over another troupe.

Death jesters are a mixed bag. Against some armies, they are awesome. Mine pushed units of skiitari, orks, chaos bikes of the board, or helped with charges by pulling units closer to my troupes and bikes. Against other armies, like dark angels, tyranids, deamonkin, they are meh. But even then, they can strip hull points, kill a couple of guys, or remove special weapons from squads (like flamers. Harlies hate flamers), or just score some objectives. But it is another unit that your opponent might want to deal with, and if he is shooting at the jester, he is not shooting at your troupes. The inriam's spectre is a steal though. If you only take one jester, take him. Shrouding can protect one of your units, which can take the pressure of your seers a little.

One thing that you need to know about he solitaire, that he is unreliable, and fagile. T3, 3W and a 3++ makes him as survivable as, for example 3 fire dragons, and he needs to roll 6s to hit to do real damage. He can't even hide in a unit. But he has two things going for him, in my opinion. First, he is small and fast, so very easy to hide and easy to move from wall to wall. Second is his POTENTIAL damage. All of my opponents was scared of him, tried to stay away from him and made mistakes in their movement and positioning because of that. And he is very good at tying up units in combat, that would otherwise murder your other units, like greater deamons and such (maybe even IKs as well, with a bit of luck). I would always field him in the heroes path, or Cegorach's revenge formation for the added protection though.

Well, this became a novel, but this my 2 cents on the subject

gery81 wrote:
Hi. I have been playing mono-harlequins for a few months now, so I will try to answer your questions, and share some of my experiences with them.
So, first if you only have 3 shadowseers, then you can expect at least one unit failing to get the Veil. 3 seers only get you a guaranteed 7 dice, and you need 4 to reliably cast veil. if you get more, then you are giving your opponent dice to deny, and any smart opponent will focus on denying one of your attempts to cast it (usually the one you cast with 1 success). So, if you plan to run troupes on foot, i recommend at least 5 seers, all level 2. And that answers your 4th question. If you have the points, always level 2 (and one with the mask, no excuses ).
Now, on the other hand, shadowseers are awesome, and not just because of their psy powers. They are very versatile, and really good in combat. They hurt everything with a toughness value, can wreck any vehicles that is not a walker (especially if you give them a haywire grenade to throw before they go charge), pin enemies to deny overwatch, and do run, cast witchfire, run shenanigans (by the way psy shriek hits automatically according to the new Faq). In my opinion their miststave is better then the caress, cause with the caress you need 6s to hit to really hurt something, while the stave will force a lot of saves.

I agree they should always be level 2 but don't think you need more than 3 to get all 3 casting successfully. 3 dice is all you need per cast and 2 does in a pinch since its only WC1. also - assuming you can run and charge thanks to the detachment you took (you can do that right?) then you can lurk at the extreme range of veil safely while still threatening a charge. You use more dice when its important to cast. I agree they are more than solid in combat - I actually run one of mine as my warlord more often than not! The reliable d3 roll for warlord traits makes him even better.

gery81 wrote:

Now, between the veil and starweaver? I find myself running the troupes in weavers, but mostly because the added mobility. The veil provides better protection, cause it denies any long ranged damage period, and your opponent might not risk the roll when you are in the 18-24 inch range. But that means, he will just shoot your other units, till you get close, and you will have to get close. Even with run and charge, you will have to be around 16-20 inches away from your intended target at the beginning of their turn to get into a reliable charge range, and that assumes that your target doesn't just move away from you. The extra 6 inch move from the weaver helps a lot with this. On the other hand, the weaver provides a rather dubious protection. It is way to easy to destroy. If it explodes, then it will kill half the guys inside, if it only becomes a wreck, then your T3 5++ saves guys are out in the open, without any real protection. Positioning is key here. If you can hide the starweaver behind Los blocking terrain then do so, otherwise always stay near cover, so you can disembark into it, if the weaver gets destroyed.

I am the opposite - I hate weavers as anything more than a glorified viper jetbike. I always find harlequins are more than mobile enough on foot and the extra bodies in the troupes helps mitigate overwatch losses. I think the point of veil is to force a stand off - I lurk right at 23" range with my DJ in a veiled unit, plinking away. At over 24" I am completely immune to return fire so your opponent either has to close (and make your charge) easier or hang back out of range and thus not kill anything. At 23" I am also still a threat to charge (3d6 +6 with fleet ignoring cover thanks to run and charge). If they close the gap I can almost guarantee a charge.

gery81 wrote:
The last question, I don't understand. You can't buy protective equipment for the troupes. If you meant the seer or weaver, then I think it is always better to buy one of those over another troupe.

40k is a game of dice - anything that shifts those odds is good within reason. I would suggest finding the balance that works for you when it comes to bodies vs other means of protection. At 1500 - my troupes are 8 strong plus the DJ & SS and it works for me.

gery81 wrote:
Death jesters are a mixed bag. Against some armies, they are awesome. Mine pushed units of skiitari, orks, chaos bikes of the board, or helped with charges by pulling units closer to my troupes and bikes. Against other armies, like dark angels, tyranids, deamonkin, they are meh. But even then, they can strip hull points, kill a couple of guys, or remove special weapons from squads (like flamers. Harlies hate flamers), or just score some objectives. But it is another unit that your opponent might want to deal with, and if he is shooting at the jester, he is not shooting at your troupes. The inriam's spectre is a steal though. If you only take one jester, take him. Shrouding can protect one of your units, which can take the pressure of your seers a little.

Agree the spectre is a no brainer for the DJ. That said, unless the enemy is actually fearless, the special rule they have is game changing. I love running mine - combined with precision shots and psudorending they are actually a threat to plenty of units these days. I also am completely happy for mine to leave the troupe in the movement phase, run up and then declare the charge before the troupe - thus absorbing the overwatch as needed. They sometimes even live!

gery81 wrote:
One thing that you need to know about he solitaire, that he is unreliable, and fagile. T3, 3W and a 3++ makes him as survivable as, for example 3 fire dragons, and he needs to roll 6s to hit to do real damage. He can't even hide in a unit. But he has two things going for him, in my opinion. First, he is small and fast, so very easy to hide and easy to move from wall to wall. Second is his POTENTIAL damage. All of my opponents was scared of him, tried to stay away from him and made mistakes in their movement and positioning because of that. And he is very good at tying up units in combat, that would otherwise murder your other units, like greater deamons and such (maybe even IKs as well, with a bit of luck). I would always field him in the heroes path, or Cegorach's revenge formation for the added protection though.

I can honestly say if I did not have to take one in the revenge formation I would not do it at all. He is a solid 50 points to expensive for what he is and does. I have had games where he killed an imperial knight on the blitz and other where he charges 5 marines and died. To unpredictable and costly for what he does.

You'll probably not get all 3 units veiled every turn. Veil definitely protects you better than a Starweaver, without the benefit of added mobility, but since the unit has Fleet and in many formations can run and charge, the mobility loss is somewhat mitigated. More bodies will benefit you more than added protection, but there's precious little protection you can buy them in any event.

For Shadowseers, I always go ML 2, but I don't take Phantasmancy, so your mileage may vary. (I run mine in Freakshow lists exclusively.)

I think you're selling Death Jesters short. Death is Not Enough! is one of the most brutal rules in this edition. Especially against larger, tougher units, (or nimble units that like to hug board edges) DiNE can accomplish in one shot what it would otherwise take multiple rounds of shooting from other units. That being said, getting the Jester out of a Heroes Path (or taking Inriam's Spectre) is definitely a huge benefit.

The Solitaire is flipping amazing. His low Toughness is offset by Eternal Warrior, but once again, the Heroes Path makes him more survivable. (Just remember, if you Infiltrate, you lose a turn before you can charge.)

I agree they should always be level 2 but don't think you need more than 3 to get all 3 casting successfully. 3 dice is all you need per cast and 2 does in a pinch since its only WC1. also - assuming you can run and charge thanks to the detachment you took (you can do that right?) then you can lurk at the extreme range of veil safely while still threatening a charge. You use more dice when its important to cast. I agree they are more than solid in combat - I actually run one of mine as my warlord more often than not! The reliable d3 roll for warlord traits makes him even better.

My experience is different. With 3 seers I always fail 1 attempt at veil. Either I fail to cast, or my opponent denies one. And for me trying to cast it with only 2 dice is too much of a risk, especially for such an important power. And if it is not important to cast, then I will just cast something that is important.

I am the opposite - I hate weavers as anything more than a glorified viper jetbike. I always find harlequins are more than mobile enough on foot and the extra bodies in the troupes helps mitigate overwatch losses. I think the point of veil is to force a stand off - I lurk right at 23" range with my DJ in a veiled unit, plinking away. At over 24" I am completely immune to return fire so your opponent either has to close (and make your charge) easier or hang back out of range and thus not kill anything. At 23" I am also still a threat to charge (3d6 +6 with fleet ignoring cover thanks to run and charge). If they close the gap I can almost guarantee a charge.

Well, we will disagree on this. I like the starweavers, because they help me avoid these types of stand offs, and allows me to play more aggressively, while they damage output is decent as well (I would compare them to venoms, and not vipers). Also, these standoffs only work against footslogging infantry, not so much against bikes, units in transports, fast vehicles, etc. These all can move 12 and still shoot at full effect. And I face all of these regularly.

Agree the spectre is a no brainer for the DJ. That said, unless the enemy is actually fearless, the special rule they have is game changing. I love running mine - combined with precision shots and psudorending they are actually a threat to plenty of units these days. I also am completely happy for mine to leave the troupe in the movement phase, run up and then declare the charge before the troupe - thus absorbing the overwatch as needed. They sometimes even live!

Yes, they special rule is game changing when it works. Problem is, mine doesn't work that often. There are a lot of fearless, stubborn, or meched up armies over here. And I forgot about using them as overwatch bait

I think you're selling Death Jesters short. Death is Not Enough! is one of the most brutal rules in this edition. Especially against larger, tougher units, (or nimble units that like to hug board edges) DiNE can accomplish in one shot what it would otherwise take multiple rounds of shooting from other units. That being said, getting the Jester out of a Heroes Path (or taking Inriam's Spectre) is definitely a huge benefit.

I agree DiNE can be brutal, especially if you have all kind of leadership debuffs readily available. Like, in a freakshow list Too bad mono-harlies have limited options in that area.

I can honestly say if I did not have to take one in the revenge formation I would not do it at all. He is a solid 50 points to expensive for what he is and does. I have had games where he killed an imperial knight on the blitz and other where he charges 5 marines and died. To unpredictable and costly for what he does.

The Solitaire is flipping amazing. His low Toughness is offset by Eternal Warrior, but once again, the Heroes Path makes him more survivable. (Just remember, if you Infiltrate, you lose a turn before you can charge.)

That 2 comment sums up the solitaire. Some loves him, some hates him. It is unreliable, but potentially can do a lot of damage. But Eternal warrior does not help with his fragility. Yes, you can't kill him with one shot, but bolters and lasguns will kill it just the same.

Regarding the solitaire, I use mine to tie up (and kill) Imperial Knights. They have relatively few attacks and are hitting on 5s, meaning it is highly unlikely they kill him. I've been quite lucky with stomp not killing him so far though. Also helpful to tie it up while a caress troupe hunts it down and kills it!

Thanks for all the input. I think I am going to have all my troupes in vehicles and focus my seers on casting psychic shriek. I really like the idea of adding dark eldar for some Ld shenanigans. I can't decide between an archon with armor of misery or a grotesquery formation. Which is better -2ld in 6" or -1ld in 12"? The archon can bring down medusa when he deep strikes for some s4 ap3 template action, but if you are also using a few shadow seers, maybe that is just overkill.

I don't think I am going to use a death jester, just too much has to go right for him to be good (but I realize when he is good he is amazing).

I am going to play with a solitaire. he just seems like too much fun not to use.

The Grotesquerie formation is far better than just having an Archon. It's tough, reliable, and has a greater Ld footprint.

The Armor of Misery (or the Mask of Secrets) work much better on a Corsair Prince than they do on their respective normal bearers; I highly recommend bringing them that way.

If you're looking for more Leadership Shenanigans, I've got a link in my sig to a series of articles dedicated to exactly that.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The Grotesquerie formation is far better than just having an Archon. It's tough, reliable, and has a greater Ld footprint.

The Armor of Misery (or the Mask of Secrets) work much better on a Corsair Prince than they do on their respective normal bearers; I highly recommend bringing them that way.

If you're looking for more Leadership Shenanigans, I've got a link in my sig to a series of articles dedicated to exactly that.

I read through your thread. I don't like the idea of taking harlequin, dark eldar and corsair so -3ld will have to be enough. At 15pts and -3LD how would you rate the soulfright launchers? Should I save the points as they don't even work on half the armies out there?

I find that Death jesters are pretty nice, as they are usually ignored, easy to hide, and if they get a kill can swing games, all for really cheap. I wouldn't take many of them though.
For the solitaire, he is extremely hit and miss. One game you might wipe out a quarter of the enemy army by himself (had him kill a Nurgle DP and unclean one by himself once) and others he bounces off tac marines.

Shadowseers are probably my favorite unit barring Scourges. They provide nice buffs, with Mask of Secrets making enemies fail LD stuff (which Harlequins have plenty of) can pin units, hit hard, and can throw great buffs or lots of psychic doom out.

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
The Grotesquerie formation is far better than just having an Archon. It's tough, reliable, and has a greater Ld footprint.

The Armor of Misery (or the Mask of Secrets) work much better on a Corsair Prince than they do on their respective normal bearers; I highly recommend bringing them that way.

If you're looking for more Leadership Shenanigans, I've got a link in my sig to a series of articles dedicated to exactly that.

I read through your thread. I don't like the idea of taking harlequin, dark eldar and corsair so -3ld will have to be enough. At 15pts and -3LD how would you rate the soulfright launchers? Should I save the points as they don't even work on half the armies out there?

Fair enough. 3+ detachments starts to get unwieldy.

Personally, I don't take the Soulfright weapons. They are too expensive and don't have enough utility for a TAC list. If you're in a setting where you know who you'll be facing (some Escalation leagues, f'rex, tell you who you'll be facing the week before) then you might choose to take them, but if you're making a list for general use, I'd leave them at home.