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morning/afternoon/evening,

so had a bit of a prep game for our local monthly tournament testing lists. so i took along this one

Vader Tie Advanced
Twin Ions
Tie/X1
Juke
Addvanced Targeting PC

Glaive Squad Pilot
Twin Ions
Tie/X7
Adaptability

Glaive Squad Pilot
Twin Ions
Tie/X7
Adaptability

99pts

and i have to say.... holy crap can this list be fast and nimble... this was literally the third time I've used Vader and i can see the use of having those two actions per turn.
the only critisim i have with it was i never had the need to use Juke. afterwards i thought maybe dropping one of the glaives for Ryad and putting VI on her and dropping Juke off vader and doing the same with VI on him.

thoughts?

I think Vader should always have Engine Upgrade. Having more actions on his bar compliments his ability, and he's an awesome arc-dodger with it. Twin Ion Engines isn't really needed on Vader, I'd drop Ions and Juke for Engine Upgrade in a heartbeat.

But he hits like a ton of bricks with Juke. Really.

And I'm pretty sure Vader would run a Mac, honestly.

Ryad with Juke, maybe? Seriously, that EPT is the forking bane of my existence.

Looks like a good list to me.

I do agree that substituting one of the Glaives for Ryad is a good idea. I've never found that extra PS to be particularly useful. There's a lot of different ways to configure VaderDD. I'm a fan of EU on Vader:

Darth Vader (29)
Predator (3)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)
Engine Upgrade (4)
TIE/x1 (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Countess Ryad (34)
Push the Limit (3)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Total: 100


Also consider running Vessery. His firepower is not to be underestimated, and he combos well with Vader.

Darth Vader (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)
Engine Upgrade (4)
TIE/x1 (0)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Adaptability (0)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Countess Ryad (34)
Adaptability (0)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Total: 100

the only reason why i've been in favour of running twin ions is i know that most of the local scum guys are starting to flock towards the stress inducing Asajj and slicer tools. so my theory is the twins will help reduce my stress with more options for movements.

Vader already has green banks, so if you thrown on Engine Upgrade he has 16 possible locations he can move to after a green manoeuvre (not counting barrel roll), ranging from 90 degrees in either direction, to a 4 straight. With Twin Ions, he only has 8 possible moves with 45 degrees of bank, so Engine Upgrade gives you more flexibility really.

On the defenders it might be more worth it. It's not something I like taking, but I certainly notice when I don't have it on those.

I definitely understand the concern about Ventress and stress dealers... the TIE Advanced definitely has a limited dial of green without the Mk II engine.

I've been toying with ideas similar to yours but I haven't tried 'em and I'm not convinced. Before imp vets I tried, with some success, a list with Vader (engine upgrade) and Vessery w/ tractor beam and Decoy (not sure if I was proxying a D title). The Defender and advanced do have somewhat similar dial and could hold formation pretty well (at least for r1-r2 of decoy).

Something like this might work:

====
VVOL
====

100 points

Pilots
------

Darth Vader (36)
TIE Advanced (29), TIE/x1 (0), XX-23 S-thread Tracers (1), Veteran Instincts (1), Engine Upgrade (4), Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

Colonel Vessery (38)
TIE Defender (35), Tractor beam (1), Decoy (2), TIE/D (0)

“Omega Leader” (26)
TIE/fo Fighter (21), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2)

------

View: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/546237/vvol

What I have been running with great success is;

Vader:
-EU
-Title
-Juke
-ATC

Glaive Squadron:
-x7
-Adaptability

Glaive Squadron:
-x7
-Adaptability

100 Points.

 Smacks wrote:
Vader already has green banks, so if you thrown on Engine Upgrade he has 16 possible locations he can move to after a green manoeuvre (not counting barrel roll), ranging from 90 degrees in either direction, to a 4 straight. With Twin Ions, he only has 8 possible moves with 45 degrees of bank, so Engine Upgrade gives you more flexibility really.

The problem is that those default green banks are only at a single speed, which makes you predictable. If you get bumped you don't get to boost or barrel roll, and you don't get defensive tokens to stay alive. Having a better dial may in theory have fewer possible ending positions but you have a much broader spread of possible maneuver endpoints and are a lot harder to predict. Also, don't forget that using engine upgrade to compensate for a limited dial means giving up an action. You might be limited to boost + focus, while a green 3-bank might have let you take an evade token as well.

Now, engine upgrade on Vader is obviously a powerful upgrade, but there's an argument for MkII engines in a stress-heavy metagame because of how bad the dial is.

 Peregrine wrote:

Now, engine upgrade on Vader is obviously a powerful upgrade, but there's an argument for MkII engines in a stress-heavy metagame because of how bad the dial is.

I can see the argument for both, but in my games, having that boost has not only saved Vader's bacon against a canny opponent, but has gotten him in line numerous times to take advantage of the Advanced Targeting Computer and his pilot ability. Against a target that won't drop in one turn, being able to boost has really helped me maneuver him into position to continue to reap the benefits of having that target lock. I normally run Twin Ion Engine on my other two Advanceds (Juno and Maarek), but on Vader the amount of times I wished I would have had the Twin Ion Engines vs Engine Upgrade has been pretty much none.

So it's a bit of a dilemma as to go with twins and have more green (then save your two actions for focus, TL, evade) or go with EU and have the boost option to preposition. the use of both have strong arguments for them.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I can see the argument for both, but in my games, having that boost has not only saved Vader's bacon against a canny opponent, but has gotten him in line numerous times to take advantage of the Advanced Targeting Computer and his pilot ability. Against a target that won't drop in one turn, being able to boost has really helped me maneuver him into position to continue to reap the benefits of having that target lock. I normally run Twin Ion Engine on my other two Advanceds (Juno and Maarek), but on Vader the amount of times I wished I would have had the Twin Ion Engines vs Engine Upgrade has been pretty much none.

How much stress control exists in your metagame?

 Peregrine wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I can see the argument for both, but in my games, having that boost has not only saved Vader's bacon against a canny opponent, but has gotten him in line numerous times to take advantage of the Advanced Targeting Computer and his pilot ability. Against a target that won't drop in one turn, being able to boost has really helped me maneuver him into position to continue to reap the benefits of having that target lock. I normally run Twin Ion Engine on my other two Advanceds (Juno and Maarek), but on Vader the amount of times I wished I would have had the Twin Ion Engines vs Engine Upgrade has been pretty much none.

How much stress control exists in your metagame?

This. Your meta will influence your final decision. EU might be good right now, but Twion might become better as wave 9 penetrates into the meta.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
So it's a bit of a dilemma as to go with twins and have more green (then save your two actions for focus, TL, evade) or go with EU and have the boost option to preposition. the use of both have strong arguments for them.

You're probably going to hold onto your Target Locks so you can use Advanced Targeting Computer. When I play Vader, I think I use boost more than any other action. It helps you get into R1 for extra fire-power, move further than your dial allows, it helps your ship turn further in case you get left without any targets, and it helps you dodge out of arcs.

 Peregrine wrote:
The problem is that those default green banks are only at a single speed, which makes you predictable. If you get bumped you don't get to boost or barrel roll, and you don't get defensive tokens to stay alive. Having a better dial may in theory have fewer possible ending positions but you have a much broader spread of possible maneuver endpoints and are a lot harder to predict.

I would argue that having more end points doesn't necessarily stop someone from doing something predictable. If you suspect your opponent is going to try to bump you, then Vader can do a straight-3 or bank the other way, or even do a straight 5 a get the hell out of there. If you don't suspect your opponent is going to bump you, then you're probably going to do the obvious move, and get bumped regardless.

More often, having boost helps you avoid collisions. For example, if you know someone is going to be in front of you, but you're not quite sure where (which happens like every turn), having boost allows you to err on the side of caution, you can select a slower move and see what happens: if the enemy ship ends up at R1, then you've made the right move and you can stack tokens. If the enemy ship lands further away, then you can still boost into R1 and Focus. Without boost you have to choose between a faster manoeuvre, which potentially collides, or a slower move which potentially leaves you outside your optimal range.

Also, don't forget that using engine upgrade to compensate for a limited dial means giving up an action. You might be limited to boost + focus, while a green 3-bank might have let you take an evade token as well.

Since Vader has white 3-banks, that's only going to be an issue when he is stressed. I think the advantages, every turn, of having Engine Upgrade, far outweigh the advantages of having Twin Ion Engines for those rare times when you're stressed, and only 3-bank will do, AND you need a focus+evade. I can see two of those things happening, but all three seems a bit contrived. It's "probably" not worth building your list around.

 Smacks wrote:
I would argue that having more end points doesn't necessarily stop someone from doing something predictable. If you suspect your opponent is going to try to bump you, then Vader can do a straight-3 or bank the other way, or even do a straight 5 a get the hell out of there. If you don't suspect your opponent is going to bump you, then you're probably going to do the obvious move, and get bumped regardless.

The problem with this is that an opposite-speed 1-bank doesn't usually take you far enough out of trouble, while the 5 straight leaves you stressed and actionless (which usually translates to "dead"). Having three green banks in each direction means a lot more cases where you have three viable options that keep you in the fight and several different options for breaking off from the fight.

More often, having boost helps you avoid collisions. For example, if you know someone is going to be in front of you, but you're not quite sure where (which happens like every turn), having boost allows you to err on the side of caution, you can select a slower move and see what happens: if the enemy ship ends up at R1, then you've made the right move and you can stack tokens. If the enemy ship lands further away, then you can still boost into R1 and Focus. Without boost you have to choose between a faster manoeuvre, which potentially collides, or a slower move which potentially leaves you outside your optimal range.

But this only applies when you're not stressed. The TIE advanced doesn't have enough green maneuvers to let you pick different speeds. Obviously EU is great and MKII is worthless when you aren't stressed, but that's not why you take an upgrade that gives you lots of extra green maneuvers.

I think the advantages, every turn, of having Engine Upgrade, far outweigh the advantages of having Twin Ion Engines for those rare times when you're stressed, and only 3-bank will do, AND you need a focus+evade. I can see two of those things happening, but all three seems a bit contrived. It's "probably" not worth building your list around.

And this is where I disagree. Stress control is likely to be a huge factor in the current meta with u-boats no longer being an automatic win against most rebel lists. And adding the 2- and 3-speed banks makes a huge difference when you're stressed.

I think that i'll play it safe and go with the twins for the moment.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
I think that i'll play it safe and go with the twins for the moment.

I don't know if it is the safe option. You're severely gimping your ship, for something that you can probably manage without. It's like going camping and taking out travel insurance, then leaving your sleeping bag at home. Yes insurance is a smart thing to have, it might even save your ass if the worst happens, but you're certainly going to need your sleeping bag every single night, and you'll be cold an miserable without it.

Peregrine is saying there is an argument for Twin Ions, and he makes some good points, but I'd be interested to hear which one he'd prefer to take himself, if it was his own list?

I think you should at least try Engine Upgrade in a friendly game, and see how you like it. I always regret not taking it on Vader. If I couldn't take EU on Vader, I think I'd probably just not take Vader at all.

 Peregrine wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I can see the argument for both, but in my games, having that boost has not only saved Vader's bacon against a canny opponent, but has gotten him in line numerous times to take advantage of the Advanced Targeting Computer and his pilot ability. Against a target that won't drop in one turn, being able to boost has really helped me maneuver him into position to continue to reap the benefits of having that target lock. I normally run Twin Ion Engine on my other two Advanceds (Juno and Maarek), but on Vader the amount of times I wished I would have had the Twin Ion Engines vs Engine Upgrade has been pretty much none.

How much stress control exists in your metagame?

Next to none really, I am really the only person who will use stress control every now and than.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Next to none really, I am really the only person who will use stress control every now and than.

Then engine upgrade, of course. You aren't going to see the value in extra green maneuvers unless you're facing stress control.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smacks wrote:
I don't know if it is the safe option. You're severely gimping your ship, for something that you can probably manage without. It's like going camping and taking out travel insurance, then leaving your sleeping bag at home. Yes insurance is a smart thing to have, it might even save your ass if the worst happens, but you're certainly going to need your sleeping bag every single night, and you'll be cold an miserable without it.

Except that's a poor analogy because travel insurance in this example is protecting against a rare event, while stress control is extremely common without u-boats to suppress it. A better example would be going camping and having space for either a sleeping bag or a rain jacket, when the forecast is 75* and 80% chance of rain. Yeah, having a sleeping bag is a nice luxury and you'll wish you had it instead of that useless rain gear if you get lucky with the 20% chance of dry weather, but you're going to be pretty miserable if you're spending the whole trip soaked.

Peregrine is saying there is an argument for Twin Ions, and he makes some good points, but I'd be interested to hear which one he'd prefer to take himself, if it was his own list?

Neither, most likely, because I don't like Vader. But if I had to take one I'd probably take TIE MkII, having garbage-tier greens on a ship that is worthless without actions is not acceptable when R3-A2 is everywhere.

Ok well I ended up running the twin ions for the tournament and ended up coming 2nd. Went through the first two rounds without loosing a ship but lost the third round to mate of mine. It was strange, I had more kill points but he had the victory points (I think that's the way it was)

After tournament thought's;
Were the twins necessary on any of the ships? Probably not. It only came in handy about half dozen times.

Was the engine upgrade required on vader? Actually no. There wasn't many instances when I needed to arc dodge or move in. Though the ATC was handy as all hell.