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So I realize this has at least been mentioned here on several occasion. As we all know Magnus has a finished model of him as a daemon primarch that's been making the rounds. Some points of discussion I wanted to bring up.
1. Does the character of the new model fit Magnus' established character post heresy? Id say it doesnt. He looks like a saturday morning cartoon villain instead of the regretful, deeply hurt and ambivalent creature hes generally been characterised as.
2. Why Magnus first? I tbink the reason fors this one is the most obvious. Magnus is the only one of the four main daemon primarchs without official art of him all demony.
3. Are the loyalist primarchs coming back as well? I would have to think so. From a lore perspective its hard to imagine the imperium holding out against Abbaddon and the newly arisen and greater threat of each of the four god's most powerful servants leading an offensive without their own legends coming back to life. And from a tt perspective the corpse fethers would feel left out if only the traitors had DBZ characters on their side of the field.
Thoughts or news?

Is it wrong to imagine Magnus appearing, only to get eaten by a carnifex or a swarm of gaunts? Wrong era buddy! Should have stayed in warpspace where its safe!

Personally, as I've touched on in the Custodes thread, I hope we don't end up with 40K becoming "The Adventures of The Primarchs (and some other stuff tacked on)". I feel like the inclusion of the Primarchs and the whole idea of "advancing the plot" places the focus too heavily on one particular part of the wider 40K background and makes the vast, expansive setting that first attracted me to 40K seem a lot smaller. But I've never bought into the whole idea of Special Characters ever since they first started appearing for much the same reason.

Yeah, same here. I don't like GW realising primarchs and custodes. What next, the God-Emperor ?
They should have remained legends, no minis.
Maybe GW doesn't have a choice anymore, maybe they are loosing too much money and they think these releases are going to help ?

 godardc wrote:
Yeah, same here. I don't like GW realising primarchs and custodes. What next, the God-Emperor ?
They should have remained legends, no minis.
Maybe GW doesn't have a choice anymore, maybe they are loosing too much money and they think these releases are going to help ?

I always used to say releasing the primarchs would be a sign of the end times (end times for GW economically, that is).

But on the other hand, I see nothing wrong with releasing models for daemon primarchs. They existed in other scales (Epic) and in the fluff they do appear sometimes when a big enough war is going on. It's a natural move now that GW is making huge monster kits on a regular basis. The shame of it is they feel the need to wake up a few loyalists too and potentially wreck their own setting. Not allowed to give CSM something special, powerful, and fluffy without changing the setting to give Space Marines the same toy too?

I have no issues with them moving up the timeline with the return of primearchs. its more options for new and interesting things.

but people hate change

I just want a Rogal Dorn model in Centurion Armor and 40k Leman Russ to have a badass beard....

 Desubot wrote:
I have no issues with them moving up the timeline with the return of primearchs. its more options for new and interesting things.

but people hate change

I don't hate change. I do hate bad fluff for the sake of selling toys, and I don't trust GW to handle massive changes in a good way, especially not lately.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
From a lore perspective its hard to imagine the imperium holding out against Abbaddon and the newly arisen and greater threat of each of the four god's most powerful servants leading an offensive without their own legends coming back to life. And from a tt perspective the corpse fethers would feel left out if only the traitors had DBZ characters on their side of the field.
Thoughts or news?

Well they have managed to hold before against Angron's, Magnus's, Mortarion's etc forays...

Daemon Primarch's are like Imperial Knights: They've always been there in the background (and EPIC), being generally ignored because their power level was above that suitable for use in the 40k tabletop game. Their inclusion hardly requires some galaxy shattering shake-up to the setting.

It's going to happen. It's basically confirmed that GW will take the clock to '30 seconds to midnight'. And what do several prophecies of loyal primarchs state? That they will return in the time of greatest need.

Vulcan should be back, Papa Smurf will heal, The Lion will finally stop hitting snooze, and Khan will ride out of the webway on a Harley and then promptly side with Magnus! :p

I find it as another sign of the new focus from GW's part over bigger kits and bigger names. Problem being, 40k was supposed to be about small teams of soldiers and creatures not about epic battles. For that, there was epic. The game has never been so unbalanced and wonky and yet instead of fixing what's broken, GW adds new big kits while has shown no skills in balancing a game with such scale difference between units.

Primarchs and other powerful beings should not belong to 40k. If you want, there is "40k historical" for that, AKA 30k. If you put Magnus Angron etc on the table, you remove focus from Kharn and Abbadon. All these beings are there to justify the rules and background of 40k armies, not to be on the table. Loyalist chapters and old traitors as a whole are cheapened, the focus is lost, the scope too much wide.

I want a setting from 40k not a story. Eldar fell, heresy happened and now we have the current state of being. If one wants to expand it can add more factions (like Mechanicus, that was great) and more Xenos (like what happened back then with Tau). One can move the story as the designer did in the past with Armageddon or Tycho, stuff like this. Maybe different incarnations of minor characters like Warmachine does. But in Warmachine you have Denny1 and Denny2, Cryx does not deploy Lord Toruk.

I do not understand if they have lost the meaning and tone of their setting, are desperate, or just arrogant about the fact that they can now design whatever they want, print it and people will buy it. If it works for them good but the lack of a decent ruleset and the progressive lack of flavour (or bad flavour) can alienate me and I am sure I am not alone.

I just don't trust GW to not balls it up royally.

I hate having super heavies in regular games and I can imagine primarchs running around being far worse.

END OF DAYS BITCHES!!!!

END TIMES! GLORIOUS COMBAT! THE WOLF AND THE LION WILL FIGHT TOGETEHR ONCE MORE!

*Fires bolter into the air*

Im personally stoked, finally get to see some action happening, i cant wait for russ and lion to get back at it.


As long as they follow 30k rules, it should be fine. IIRC no unit in your army can make up 25% or more of your total army point limit, or something along those lines.

So basically you cant run anything over 462 points for a single unit in an 1850 game.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
END OF DAYS BITCHES!!!!

END TIMES! GLORIOUS COMBAT! THE WOLF AND THE LION WILL FIGHT TOGETEHR ONCE MORE!

*Fires bolter into the air*

Im personally stoked, finally get to see some action happening, i cant wait for russ and lion to get back at it.


As long as they follow 30k rules, it should be fine. IIRC no unit in your army can make up 25% or more of your total army point limit, or something along those lines.

So basically you cant run anything over 462 points for a single unit in an 1850 game.

The beauty of Russ in 40k is that is a lost allfather the wolves look up to. The beauty of the Lion in 40k is that is a sleeping King Under the Mountain with added doubt and suspect - at least in 3rd, one was never sure of what exactly happened. They were not there for themselves, they were there to make the Wolves and the Dark Angels more interesting. If they wake up or come back, the focus is on them, and their sons are not longer special.

if you focus too much on an aspect, you will lose the wide picture and what was making the armies and background fascinating. Is a bit like what happened with the Blood Angels and their bloodeverywhere equipment, or even worse, the space wolves. The meaning of the words and the background came up as cheapened.
We should be careful of what we are wishing for.

Furthermore, 40k is wilder and wilder, what makes you think about the 25% point limit?

The "Return of the Primarchs"?

Returning from where? The Daemon Primarchs have been hanging around this whole time.

Loyalist primarchs should remain out of the setting, gone to the passage of time. The setting gets major Grim-Dark points if only the corrupted heroes are truly immortal.

I kind of liked the idea that the return of the loyalist primarchs and the rebirth of the Emperor were always just complete total optimistic bs. And that in the end the saviors would not reappear (because they're dead obviously) and mankind would stand alone. It's way more grimdark that way.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Magnus is the only one of the four main daemon primarchs without official art of him all demony.

It's not even the first time Magnus has had a model.

There was artwork of daemon-Magnus in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions.

(He's also already had 40K rules. Sort of.)

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Magnus is the only one of the four main daemon primarchs without official art of him all demony.

It's not even the first time Magnus has had a model.

There was artwork of daemon-Magnus in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions.

(He's also already had 40K rules. Sort of.)

This was an Epic model. Again, different scope and focus.

(but is a good point against my criticism of the story advancement).

The only issue I have with the primarchs coming back is that we'll either never see them ever, or no one will play anything else. For magnus's rules to be as intense as they should be for how powerful he is fluff-wise he'd have to be VERY expensive but in 40k single expensive models have to be INSANELY good (Hard to shift, very killy, undercosted) for them to be worth it. Even the FW primarchs, if you took them in standard 1850 40k, tough as they are, are just too expensive to be worth it since they can get rocked out by a single D attack or stomp or 800 scatterlasers and then you lose a 3rd of your army. In short, the primarchs will either break the game even more wide open than it already is OR collect dust, they don't really have a shot at being just good or mediocre.

Yeah, Magnus will have to be pretty tough to justify his 999 pts cost.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Yeah, Magnus will have to be pretty tough to justify his 999 pts cost.

1+ inv save

Eh if you look at the HH series, there is a lot about legions, and the members of it then just their primarchs.

I just wanna see a space wolf, Dark Angels bro mance happen once more.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Eh if you look at the HH series, there is a lot about legions, and the members of it then just their primarchs.

I just wanna see a space wolf, Dark Angels bro mance happen once more.

Yes, but the HH series is the right place for primarcs. That, is their story. In 30k, they are the protagonists. In 40k, they are supposed to be (rich and important) background.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Eh if you look at the HH series, there is a lot about legions, and the members of it then just their primarchs.

I just wanna see a space wolf, Dark Angels bro mance happen once more.

Yes, but the HH series is the right place for primarcs. That, is their story. In 30k, they are the protagonists. In 40k, they are supposed to be (rich and important) background.

That has not always been the case though. The 40k universe was once very much open to the Daemon Primarchs. Magnus wasn't the only one to have an epic scale model for a start. Leman Russ even had a 40k model. There's also cases of the Primarchs appearing in the fluff. Like Angron at Armageddon.

This whole idea that the Primarchs were always mysterious characters in the background never having an effect on the story is frankly bunkum. It's simply not true. Just because they haven't had models, or rules in the last twenty years doesn't mean they can't have models and rules now.

 General Kroll wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Eh if you look at the HH series, there is a lot about legions, and the members of it then just their primarchs.

I just wanna see a space wolf, Dark Angels bro mance happen once more.

Yes, but the HH series is the right place for primarcs. That, is their story. In 30k, they are the protagonists. In 40k, they are supposed to be (rich and important) background.

That has not always been the case though. The 40k universe was once very much open to the Daemon Primarchs. Magnus wasn't the only one to have an epic scale model for a start. Leman Russ even had a 40k model. There's also cases of the Primarchs appearing in the fluff. Like Angron at Armageddon.

This whole idea that the Primarchs were always mysterious characters in the background never having an effect on the story is frankly bunkum. It's simply not true. Just because they haven't had models, or rules in the last twenty years doesn't mean they can't have models and rules now.

Current 40k is just more iterations of 3rd edition. Did 3rd edition 40k (not epic, 40k) had them? No.
Do I like how 3rd managed the BG? Yes
Do I accept that for other people could be different AAARGGGGHHH NO
Joking, of course yes. But for the universe we are accustomed to since...? 1998 I think? IMHO primarchs returning they are not a good thing (I explained why).

As long as the loyalist Primarchs are limited to the ones that don't upset the setting, everything will be fine. Eg, Guilliman and Dorn would try and fix the Imperium, so they can't come back, but Jonson or Russ wouldn't change anything, so bringing them is fine.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Eh if you look at the HH series, there is a lot about legions, and the members of it then just their primarchs.

I just wanna see a space wolf, Dark Angels bro mance happen once more.

Yes, but the HH series is the right place for primarcs. That, is their story. In 30k, they are the protagonists. In 40k, they are supposed to be (rich and important) background.

That has not always been the case though. The 40k universe was once very much open to the Daemon Primarchs. Magnus wasn't the only one to have an epic scale model for a start. Leman Russ even had a 40k model. There's also cases of the Primarchs appearing in the fluff. Like Angron at Armageddon.

This whole idea that the Primarchs were always mysterious characters in the background never having an effect on the story is frankly bunkum. It's simply not true. Just because they haven't had models, or rules in the last twenty years doesn't mean they can't have models and rules now.

Current 40k is just more iterations of 3rd edition.

Sorry but this is just a complete fallacy, and is all to convenient to serve your paper thin argument. GW has been mining the older versions and different scales of the game for a long time now. Both for fluff and potential models. Did you think they just plucked the Imperial Knights out of their arses? Or things like the Exocrine? The Wave Serpent? The Fire Prism? The Baneblade? These were all Epic models long before they were standard 40k models. Perhaps they don't belong in 40k though because they weren't from the glorious post 3rd edition era?







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
As long as the loyalist Primarchs are limited to the ones that don't upset the setting, everything will be fine. Eg, Guilliman and Dorn would try and fix the Imperium, so they can't come back, but Jonson or Russ wouldn't change anything, so bringing them is fine.

I personally think any of the loyalist ones coming back could be very destabilising. The Lion has the potential of having a Legion sized force at his back, and he'd likely feel that he was the rightful heir to rule the Imperium in his fathers stead. And god knows what kind of state Russ will be in after all that time in the warp... would he even still be loyalist?

 General Kroll wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Eh if you look at the HH series, there is a lot about legions, and the members of it then just their primarchs.

I just wanna see a space wolf, Dark Angels bro mance happen once more.

Yes, but the HH series is the right place for primarcs. That, is their story. In 30k, they are the protagonists. In 40k, they are supposed to be (rich and important) background.

That has not always been the case though. The 40k universe was once very much open to the Daemon Primarchs. Magnus wasn't the only one to have an epic scale model for a start. Leman Russ even had a 40k model. There's also cases of the Primarchs appearing in the fluff. Like Angron at Armageddon.

This whole idea that the Primarchs were always mysterious characters in the background never having an effect on the story is frankly bunkum. It's simply not true. Just because they haven't had models, or rules in the last twenty years doesn't mean they can't have models and rules now.

Current 40k is just more iterations of 3rd edition.

Sorry but this is just a complete fallacy, and is all to convenient to serve your paper thin argument. GW has been mining the older versions and different scales of the game for a long time now. Both for fluff and potential models. Did you think they just plucked the Imperial Knights out of their arses? Or things like the Exocrine? The Wave Serpent? The Fire Prism? The Baneblade? These were all Epic models long before they were standard 40k models. Perhaps they don't belong in 40k though because they weren't from the glorious post 3rd edition era?

This is not a fallacy is part of my point, careful with your facepalming

I stated above that a primarch on the table changes (1) the story focus and (2) the scale of the game. Now think about how much people complain about super-heavies.
Is exactly the same thing. GW introduced super-heavies and altered the game scale in a clumsy and ultimately disruptive way.
Now introduces from epic daemon primarchs, that not only for their power will shift the game mechanics again, but have, compared to stuff like imperial knights, a greater potential of being disruptive for the fluff.

I did not say above "it always been like that". In the post that you conveniently cut, I wrote that the scale of the game and fluff in 3rd were the best and the one many people are accustomed to. That is not necessarily meaning is the best possible, but we can express our concerns, right?

Just so I'm clear, 3rd ed. was the one with literal Star Gods as playable models, right?


(and rules for superheavies and gargantuan creatures!)