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So rather than having Snap-firing always be unmodified BS1, why not make it -2 to hit? This would mean that Marines, Eldar, etc hit on 5+ when snap-firing (for any reason)
This would make FMCs a bit more vulnerable as well as tone down Invisibility.

This would go along with some other tweaks, such as Bikes losing Relentless when moving more than 6", since it makes them feel like mini-vehicles (cuz they are).
They can move and still fire normally, yet if they want more speed, they sacrifice accuracy. The bike provides a stable platform when moving at normal infantry speeds, but the control of the bike requires more concentration at higher speeds.

As well, I would like to tweak the bike rules in general as follows:
Bikes: can move 12", turbo-boost 12" (the same as now)
Jetbikes: can move 12", turbo 18" in the shooting phase OR perform a 2D6 thrust move in the assault phase
"Eldar" Jetbikes are the same as above, but may turbo boost 24".

The idea here is to give all Jetbikes the same feel as Jetpack infantry. They may move-shoot-move. So Tomb Blades & Deff Koptas get a boost, while Eldar Jetbikes get toned down a bit in their movement total (only 36" possible, whereas now they can get 48")

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That's a little more than just BS-2 Snap Shots.

How does this interact with Grim Resolve?

And honestly, I'd make it BS-3 (minimum 1). That way, for the vast majority of units, nothing changes. Why? This edition already favors shooting over assault, and this just makes it worse.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's a little more than just BS-2 Snap Shots.

How does this interact with Grim Resolve?

And honestly, I'd make it BS-3 (minimum 1). That way, for the vast majority of units, nothing changes. Why? This edition already favors shooting over assault, and this just makes it worse.

Hmm. Fair enough. I hadn't thought about Grim Resolve, or the Dire Avengers rule that is similar.
Forget about BS -2, keep it as is, but maybe have "Hard to Hit" resolved at BS2 against flyers & FMCs.

I still think Bikes should lose Relentless if moved more than 6" in the movement phase.

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 Galef wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's a little more than just BS-2 Snap Shots.

How does this interact with Grim Resolve?

And honestly, I'd make it BS-3 (minimum 1). That way, for the vast majority of units, nothing changes. Why? This edition already favors shooting over assault, and this just makes it worse.

Hmm. Fair enough. I hadn't thought about Grim Resolve, or the Dire Avengers rule that is similar.
Forget about BS -2, keep it as is, but maybe have "Hard to Hit" resolved at BS2 against flyers & FMCs.

I still think Bikes should lose Relentless if moved more than 6" in the movement phase.

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Don't forget this would also effect tesla like rules (special rules affected by rolls of 6's as long as a unit isn't snapfiring) because they're no longer snapfiring. Not saying its inherently a bad thing but just something to consider.

 Galef wrote:
So rather than having Snap-firing always be unmodified BS1, why not make it -2 to hit? This would mean that Marines, Eldar, etc hit on 5+ when snap-firing (for any reason)
This would make FMCs a bit more vulnerable as well as tone down Invisibility.

This would go along with some other tweaks, such as Bikes losing Relentless when moving more than 6", since it makes them feel like mini-vehicles (cuz they are).
They can move and still fire normally, yet if they want more speed, they sacrifice accuracy. The bike provides a stable platform when moving at normal infantry speeds, but the control of the bike requires more concentration at higher speeds.

As well, I would like to tweak the bike rules in general as follows:
Bikes: can move 12", turbo-boost 12" (the same as now)
Jetbikes: can move 12", turbo 18" in the shooting phase OR perform a 2D6 thrust move in the assault phase
"Eldar" Jetbikes are the same as above, but may turbo boost 24".

The idea here is to give all Jetbikes the same feel as Jetpack infantry. They may move-shoot-move. So Tomb Blades & Deff Koptas get a boost, while Eldar Jetbikes get toned down a bit in their movement total (only 36" possible, whereas now they can get 48")
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In other words give all SM armies, Eldar armies a minor buff and screw over the have not armies a bit more. Horrible rule.

What does this rule change do for orks to help them as an under powered codex? not a damned thing. What does this do to hurt Orks? Makes assault even that much harder to pull off. No thank you.

SemperMortis wrote:

In other words give all SM armies, Eldar armies a minor buff and screw over the have not armies a bit more. Horrible rule.

What does this rule change do for orks to help them as an under powered codex? not a damned thing. What does this do to hurt Orks? Makes assault even that much harder to pull off. No thank you.

Ok, I agree with that. I am dropping the Snap-Fire change portion of this thread.

What do you think about the bike changes? Since Ork bike all have Assault weapons, they don't care about this change, where as Eldar (Scatter bikes) and Marines really have to consider movement options.

 Galef wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

In other words give all SM armies, Eldar armies a minor buff and screw over the have not armies a bit more. Horrible rule.

What does this rule change do for orks to help them as an under powered codex? not a damned thing. What does this do to hurt Orks? Makes assault even that much harder to pull off. No thank you.

Ok, I agree with that. I am dropping the Snap-Fire change portion of this thread.

What do you think about the bike changes? Since Ork bike all have Assault weapons, they don't care about this change, where as Eldar (Scatter bikes) and Marines really have to consider movement options.

Well, from a real world perspective it would make sense that they cant fire heavy weapons from such an unstable platform as a bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By that I mean that a vehicle can fire heavy weapons because its on a massive stable platform. Heavy infantry (terminators and such) are slow moving and again makes sense. Bikes? They should be bouncing around like crazy and not able to fire a heavy weapon.

Snap firing change may have to be a bit more stringent than that, because -2 to BS would mean almost nothing to something like an assassin or a bloodthirster.

I think jetbikes getting a assault move would be neat, honestly.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Snap firing change may have to be a bit more stringent than that, because -2 to BS would mean almost nothing to something like an assassin or a bloodthirster.

I think jetbikes getting a assault move would be neat, honestly.

Don't Eldar Jetbikes (the most used jetbikes) already have that with JSJ?

SemperMortis wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Snap firing change may have to be a bit more stringent than that, because -2 to BS would mean almost nothing to something like an assassin or a bloodthirster.

I think jetbikes getting a assault move would be neat, honestly.

Don't Eldar Jetbikes (the most used jetbikes) already have that with JSJ?

Yes they do, as well as a 36" turbo-boost. I am proposing giving ALL Jetbikes JSJ and lowering the turbo boost of Eldar to only 24" (and jetbikes to 18") That way Eldar JBs can stay "special" but are less ridiculous compared to other JBs.

 Galef wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Snap firing change may have to be a bit more stringent than that, because -2 to BS would mean almost nothing to something like an assassin or a bloodthirster.

I think jetbikes getting a assault move would be neat, honestly.

Don't Eldar Jetbikes (the most used jetbikes) already have that with JSJ?

Yes they do, as well as a 36" turbo-boost. I am proposing giving ALL Jetbikes JSJ and lowering the turbo boost of Eldar to only 24" (and jetbikes to 18") That way Eldar JBs can stay "special" but are less ridiculous compared to other JBs.

What factions legitimately have Jetbikes though? The only ones I can think of are Eldar and assorted flavors, Necrons and believe it or not...Orks. What other factions would benefit from this?

Basically just Necrons and Orks, actually, since Eldar/DE/Harlequin jetbikes already do that, as noted. Though Dark Angels have one Jetbike. Sammael's solid already, though it's not like giving him JSJ would be broken.

Deffkoptas could use the buff, wouldn't you agree?

Necron Tomb Blades
Ork Def Koptas
Dark Angels Samael
Daemon Screamers
Daemon Hearlds on Disc
CSM character on Disc (don't quote me on this, but I believe theay are JBs)

So while not a huge change, it does positievly affect a few units and more importantly would negatively affect Eldar bikes.
Take a Scatter bike for example: They can currently move 12" and fire a 36" range heavy weapon, then do an 2D6 assault move. Or they can move 12", then Turboboost 36" (for an incredible 48" total)

All of my core Bike changes would mean that same Scatter bike could only move 6" and fire that Heavy weapon, other wise it would snap-fire. This would cut down on their ability to get into the side/rear armour of vehicle. Or they could move 12", then turbo 24" (for a more reasonable 36" total).

Meanwhile all other Jetbike get their turbo boost reduce by only 6" (cuz Eldar have to remain the masters of speed) but in exchange they gain the ability to JSJ.
You're Welcome Necrons and Orks, I just gave you fast Crisis suits.

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 Galef wrote:
So rather than having Snap-firing always be unmodified BS1, why not make it -2 to hit? This would mean that Marines, Eldar, etc hit on 5+ when snap-firing (for any reason)
This would make FMCs a bit more vulnerable as well as tone down Invisibility.

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, I agree that snap-fire being BS 1 for everybody doesn't make sense. This is also a big reason I don't like the current rules on blast weapons.

It doesn't make sense for my tactical marine to throw a grenade or shoot a frag missile with basically the same accuracy wherewith an ork would throw that same grenade or shoot that same frag missile (meanwhile, my tactical marine costs way more than that ork).

BS 4 should mean that I have a 1/3 chance of missing. BS 2 should mean that I have a 1/3 chance of hitting. Period.

However, I also agree that this would be too big of a boon to gun-line armies. Imho, they should get rid of overwatch entirely. You should have to do your shooting on your own turn, darn it.

This would go along with some other tweaks, such as Bikes losing Relentless when moving more than 6", since it makes them feel like mini-vehicles (cuz they are).

This doesn't go far enough. All of the restrictions that apply to vehicles should apply to bikes...and more. Why should a lone biker be able to drive his bike and shoot his guns with the same accuracy, or better accuracy, than a tank wherein there very well may be multiple people, each of whom have an assigned role (1 person drives, 1 person shoots, etc.).

Bikes should be inferior to vehicles as a mobile ranged weapons platform.

As well, I would like to tweak the bike rules in general as follows:
Bikes: can move 12", turbo-boost 12" (the same as now)
Jetbikes: can move 12", turbo 18" in the shooting phase OR perform a 2D6 thrust move in the assault phase
"Eldar" Jetbikes are the same as above, but may turbo boost 24".

Eldar should just get normal jetbikes. It's not like you pay the points for the additional bonus.

You didn't really hit Scatterbikes. Who cares if they can only move 6"? They got a 36" gun with lots of shots and can spam them. Oh, and the other option is Assault.

It seems you're really just interested in hitting Space Marine Bikers at that point.

Here's a better idea: remove snap fire from the game. All of the things that force you to snap fire (moving with heavy weapons, etc) go back to preventing you from shooting at all. It's tedious dice rolling for very little result and should never have been added in the first place.

 Peregrine wrote:
Here's a better idea: remove snap fire from the game. All of the things that force you to snap fire (moving with heavy weapons, etc) go back to preventing you from shooting at all. It's tedious dice rolling for very little result and should never have been added in the first place.

I would be perfectly fine with this, assuming appropriate nerfs to bikes, etc.