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Despite having read Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels, I like the idea of playing the Dark Angels in Horus Heresy.

I am drawn towards those Dark Angels left behind by Lion El'Jonson on Caliban, those that we know will include traitors. Lead by a Praetor and a Librarian Consul

However, weren't they limited to Caliban, for the most part. In the ensuing civil war when Lion El'Jonson discovers the treachery, the planet is torn asunder (creating the land mass later turned into "The Rock") and that the whole point of the Dark Angels "Deeper, darker secret" is that they want to keep people from knowing about it?

As such, how fluffy would it be to play Dark Angels as Traitors? Like, taking them to AdeptiCon to play as traitors and such against the Raven Guard or the UltraMarines?

I'm still toying with making a traitor Sons of Horus legion, though.

My understanding was that the Fallen were scattered into the Warp after Caliban was destroyed. This would make it hard for them to work together as a fighting force.

Other than the fluff, it's probably fine to play them as a traitor army. The next HH book is supposed to include rules for Dark Angels and Blood Angels, and (who knows) it might include rules for the Fallen.

Both 'factions' of Dark Angels fought on both sides. The novella 'Wolf King' has Luther-loyal Dark Angels siding with the Space Wolves against Alpha Legion, for example.

All the legions have expeditions in the far limits of the galaxy, some of them are long time far from their primarch and when the civil war erupted they take the other side.

So you are not limited to play Dark Angels as loyalist, all the legions had traitors as all the legions had loyalist. In the novels is heavily portrayed, some White Scars and Raven guards were traitors. Even a company of Astartes with mixed livery of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Horus at the Siege of Mezoa.

In the FW book 4 even a full company of Space Wolves slaughter a loyalist world (Neocadiz) bearing the sign of Horus.

(That makes me think about a Neogaditan army, picha)

Everything I've read, and I openly admit it's not everything, was that Lion sat out most of the Heresy until he had to commit forces, then he split his forces up and left a garrison behind on Caliban lead by Luther. Luther wanted to join Horus and believed in what he was saying. Lion was really trying to play both sides, which is interesting. He was known as the best strategist among the Primarchs, which means he couldn't see a clear winner in the Heresy. It wasn't until Horus 'prodded' the Dark Angels by sending the Night Lords at them to get them into the fight. And even then, Lion engaged them sorta reluctantly. So Lion goes off to fight the Traitors, comes back after the defeat of Horus on Terra, and finds Luther in charge, and fighting. Civil War erupts, and (Spoiler alert! ) Caliban gets destroyed, Lion severally wounded, Luther is gibbering mad, the Traitors are wisked away by the Dark Powers, and the Dark Angels know shame. SHAME. SHAME! Hence, the "Big Secret" and the Hunt for the Fallen begins.

There are stories of the Loyalist Dark Angels fighting Traitors, but I haven't heard or read a book about Traitor Dark Angels fighting Loyalist Legions besides the civil war on Caliban. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that GW hasn't narrated that part of the Heresy yet. I'm sure at some future point we will get that Horus Heresy rule book, but it might be a while.

Until then, you could totally make a Traitor Dark Angel force using the Legions rules. You'll be stuck with the crappy generic rules the DA got in Book VI, but, eh.

Thanks, all.

I have my Imperial Fists army, which I'm happy with. Now I'm looking at a traitor army. Renegade Dark Angels on bikes, jet bikes, and terminators sounds fun to me, and significantly different from my mostly troops IF. I'm sitting here with my Prospero boxed game debating between Dark Angels and Sons of Horus.

I'm waiting on 30k transfer sheets and special units before I start painting my Dark Angels. Shoot, even an DA flavored contemptor would be nice.

I was going to buy a bunch of these once I finally decided.

For troops:



For bikes (which seem to be MKIV):

I say go for it. Neat thing about the Dark Angel's is that they very legitimately swung both ways. So I play mine to fit into whatever fluff setting they need to fit into.

Also, almost every bit of 30K DA artwork shows the armor patterns to be very non-standard. So the vast majority of my left shoulder pads, I've actually used the 40K DA upgrade pack for. To help add a bit of that variety.

 Justycar wrote:

So you are not limited to play Dark Angels as loyalist, all the legions had traitors as all the legions had loyalist. In the novels is heavily portrayed, some White Scars and Raven guards were traitors. Even a company of Astartes with mixed livery of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Horus at the Siege of Mezoa.

There are people who'll claim there were no Loyalist Night Lords or Word Bearers, or no Traitor Ultramarines. (I'm off to re-read the Siege of Mezoa as I missed the bit about Traitor Iron Hands...)

 Tamwulf wrote:
Everything I've read, and I openly admit it's not everything, was that Lion sat out most of the Heresy until he had to commit forces, then he split his forces up and left a garrison behind on Caliban lead by Luther. Luther wanted to join Horus and believed in what he was saying. Lion was really trying to play both sides, which is interesting. He was known as the best strategist among the Primarchs, which means he couldn't see a clear winner in the Heresy. It wasn't until Horus 'prodded' the Dark Angels by sending the Night Lords at them to get them into the fight. And even then, Lion engaged them sorta reluctantly. So Lion goes off to fight the Traitors, comes back after the defeat of Horus on Terra, and finds Luther in charge, and fighting. Civil War erupts, and (Spoiler alert! ) Caliban gets destroyed, Lion severally wounded, Luther is gibbering mad, the Traitors are wisked away by the Dark Powers, and the Dark Angels know shame. SHAME. SHAME! Hence, the "Big Secret" and the Hunt for the Fallen begins.

There are stories of the Loyalist Dark Angels fighting Traitors, but I haven't heard or read a book about Traitor Dark Angels fighting Loyalist Legions besides the civil war on Caliban. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that GW hasn't narrated that part of the Heresy yet. I'm sure at some future point we will get that Horus Heresy rule book, but it might be a while.

Until then, you could totally make a Traitor Dark Angel force using the Legions rules. You'll be stuck with the crappy generic rules the DA got in Book VI, but, eh.

there is debate about the Dark Angels actions during the Heresy, one group states like the UM's (remember the UM's hardly lost anyone during the heresy) most of the DA forces were spread away from where the heresy concentrated on and even then Lion El' Johnson was still in the fight, albeit didn't help when he turned over some major weapons to a traitor legion, but before that he prevented Horus from getting the weapons, until he handed them over gift wrapped.

then you have the other coin where people think he didn't commit much but very little (which is true in a way but he was able to do much with that little and he felt that was the best way so as to not telegraph his moves to Horus), and the troops sent back to Caliban (before the heresy) thought of it as a punishment now the troops on Caliban it gets really confusing from the various books about them, from them being sent there cause Luther almost allowed Lion 'El Johnson to be blown up, to something even more dark and sinister, also there is contradictions about what happened on the planet before the betrayal. (from some old and dark that was part of the planet corrupting them, to whatever.

Asterios wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Everything I've read, and I openly admit it's not everything, was that Lion sat out most of the Heresy until he had to commit forces, then he split his forces up and left a garrison behind on Caliban lead by Luther. Luther wanted to join Horus and believed in what he was saying. Lion was really trying to play both sides, which is interesting. He was known as the best strategist among the Primarchs, which means he couldn't see a clear winner in the Heresy. It wasn't until Horus 'prodded' the Dark Angels by sending the Night Lords at them to get them into the fight. And even then, Lion engaged them sorta reluctantly. So Lion goes off to fight the Traitors, comes back after the defeat of Horus on Terra, and finds Luther in charge, and fighting. Civil War erupts, and (Spoiler alert! ) Caliban gets destroyed, Lion severally wounded, Luther is gibbering mad, the Traitors are wisked away by the Dark Powers, and the Dark Angels know shame. SHAME. SHAME! Hence, the "Big Secret" and the Hunt for the Fallen begins.

There are stories of the Loyalist Dark Angels fighting Traitors, but I haven't heard or read a book about Traitor Dark Angels fighting Loyalist Legions besides the civil war on Caliban. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that GW hasn't narrated that part of the Heresy yet. I'm sure at some future point we will get that Horus Heresy rule book, but it might be a while.

Until then, you could totally make a Traitor Dark Angel force using the Legions rules. You'll be stuck with the crappy generic rules the DA got in Book VI, but, eh.

there is debate about the Dark Angels actions during the Heresy, one group states like the UM's (remember the UM's hardly lost anyone during the heresy) most of the DA forces were spread away from where the heresy concentrated on and even then Lion El' Johnson was still in the fight, albeit didn't help when he turned over some major weapons to a traitor legion, but before that he prevented Horus from getting the weapons, until he handed them over gift wrapped.

then you have the other coin where people think he didn't commit much but very little (which is true in a way but he was able to do much with that little and he felt that was the best way so as to not telegraph his moves to Horus), and the troops sent back to Caliban (before the heresy) thought of it as a punishment now the troops on Caliban it gets really confusing from the various books about them, from them being sent there cause Luther almost allowed Lion 'El Johnson to be blown up, to something even more dark and sinister, also there is contradictions about what happened on the planet before the betrayal. (from some old and dark that was part of the planet corrupting them, to whatever.

I think what it comes down to is that Horus recognized how much of a threat or an asset the Lion could have been, but he also realized that he could go both ways at the drop of a hat. So Horus very carefully manipulated events to basically make the Dark Angels a non-player in the Horus Heresy. Just like what he did with Roboute and the Ultramarines. He basically set them up to be a non-player until late in the Heresy, and even then, I don't think he really wanted Lorgar and the Word Bearers to go and fight him. Horus' ultimate strategy was Divide and Conquer, and by the time the Ultramarines and Dark Angels would become a factor in the war, Horus hoped to have already forced the Emperor to acknowledge him, and won. Then he could concentrate on the Legions that were the biggest threat to him at that point. Namely, the Dark Angels and Ultramarines. He already had all the other Loyalist Legions tied up- Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Blood Angels on Terra, Space Wolves on Prospero, and he broke the Iron Hands and Salamanders on Istavaan V. If Horus has won on Terra, the only Legions left to oppose him would have been the Ultramarines (and thanks to Roboute, they kinda had their own little empire going, and it's debatable what Roboute would have done at that point), and the Dark Angels, who were already broken but didn't know it yet. Truly, Horus was The Warmaster.

Asterios wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Everything I've read, and I openly admit it's not everything, was that Lion sat out most of the Heresy until he had to commit forces, then he split his forces up and left a garrison behind on Caliban lead by Luther. Luther wanted to join Horus and believed in what he was saying. Lion was really trying to play both sides, which is interesting. He was known as the best strategist among the Primarchs, which means he couldn't see a clear winner in the Heresy. It wasn't until Horus 'prodded' the Dark Angels by sending the Night Lords at them to get them into the fight. And even then, Lion engaged them sorta reluctantly. So Lion goes off to fight the Traitors, comes back after the defeat of Horus on Terra, and finds Luther in charge, and fighting. Civil War erupts, and (Spoiler alert! ) Caliban gets destroyed, Lion severally wounded, Luther is gibbering mad, the Traitors are wisked away by the Dark Powers, and the Dark Angels know shame. SHAME. SHAME! Hence, the "Big Secret" and the Hunt for the Fallen begins.

There are stories of the Loyalist Dark Angels fighting Traitors, but I haven't heard or read a book about Traitor Dark Angels fighting Loyalist Legions besides the civil war on Caliban. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that GW hasn't narrated that part of the Heresy yet. I'm sure at some future point we will get that Horus Heresy rule book, but it might be a while.

Until then, you could totally make a Traitor Dark Angel force using the Legions rules. You'll be stuck with the crappy generic rules the DA got in Book VI, but, eh.

there is debate about the Dark Angels actions during the Heresy, one group states like the UM's (remember the UM's hardly lost anyone during the heresy) most of the DA forces were spread away from where the heresy concentrated on and even then Lion El' Johnson was still in the fight, albeit didn't help when he turned over some major weapons to a traitor legion, but before that he prevented Horus from getting the weapons, until he handed them over gift wrapped.

then you have the other coin where people think he didn't commit much but very little (which is true in a way but he was able to do much with that little and he felt that was the best way so as to not telegraph his moves to Horus), and the troops sent back to Caliban (before the heresy) thought of it as a punishment now the troops on Caliban it gets really confusing from the various books about them, from them being sent there cause Luther almost allowed Lion 'El Johnson to be blown up, to something even more dark and sinister, also there is contradictions about what happened on the planet before the betrayal. (from some old and dark that was part of the planet corrupting them, to whatever.

This has all been refuted multiple times throughout the HH series. The Lion committed his full Legion to the war, with the exception of those that had long been left behind on Caliban. In "Savage Weapons" there is a direct quote from Curze to the Lion, something along the lines of "If you continue to prosecute this war against me on the Eastern fringe, there will be forever be those who question the loyalty of the Lion. Why not fight for Horus when your honour will be in doubt should you continue to fight here?" The Lion excepts this to be true but spurns Curze's offer and stabs him through the spine.

In all of the Imperium Secondus Storyline; The Lion is downright hostile towards Guilliman's attempts at rebuilding an Eastern imperium, in the case that the Emperor has fallen. He views his brother's actions as cowardly at best and outright secession at worst. He constantly does his best to break the peace and bring the 500 worlds into a state of total war to motivate the UM's to abandon Macragge and push for Terra. He only even remains when Sanguinius arrives, but still spends the entire time looking for any sign of disloyalty in Guilliman.

As for the Fallen. None of them advocate fighting for Horus. They are Anti-Imperium, regardless of who sits on the throne. They want to use the war to break away and return to the old days. Roughly they fall into three camps:
Luther, who simply wants to protect his people from what he sees as certain doom if they allow the imperium to strip away Caliban of it's culture and continue sending it's best soldiers away to fight in distant wars. He seems genuinely determined to do this as bloodlessly as possible but is unforunately subverted by his co conspirators.
Astellan: Believes that the Lion is a fool and that the Calabanites have poisoned the mighty First Legion. Wishes to use Luther's charisma to rally the rest of the Dark Angels to usurp and kill the Lion, where he then intends to betray Luther and take control of the Dark Angels, though he seems loyal to the Emperor, with no love for any of the Primarchs, let alone Horus.
Finally, Zahariel who has been corrupted by a Chaos entity known as The Ourobouros. Which he wrongly believes is the soul of Caliban. He has been convinced that Caliban can only survive in a constant state of war and ultimately seems likely to be the one to provoke the open war with the Lion after the war, which backfires (or succeeds) and results in the destruction of the planet.

As for the OP. You could easily still have Traitor Dark Angels who simply were not either on Caliban or with the Lion's fleet and joined Horus for whatever reason you choose.

Kor Phaeron, thank you for this post. Been following this thread on my phone all day, so couldn't provide the response that was needed.

That was some excellent insite, thank you!

 djones520 wrote:
Kor Phaeron, thank you for this post. Been following this thread on my phone all day, so couldn't provide the response that was needed.

You're welcome. What has the galaxy come to, that the honourable First must be defended by a filthy traitor?

beast_gts wrote:

 Justycar wrote:

So you are not limited to play Dark Angels as loyalist, all the legions had traitors as all the legions had loyalist. In the novels is heavily portrayed, some White Scars and Raven guards were traitors. Even a company of Astartes with mixed livery of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Horus at the Siege of Mezoa.

There are people who'll claim there were no Loyalist Night Lords or Word Bearers, or no Traitor Ultramarines. (I'm off to re-read the Siege of Mezoa as I missed the bit about Traitor Iron Hands...)

Justycar - Can you remember where the Traitor Iron Hands are mentioned, as I can't seem to find it.

THE DARK ANGELS ARE THE MOST LOYAL SERVANTS OF THE EMPEROR. THE LION HAS SAID THAT LOYALTY IS ITS OWN REWARD. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN TRAITOR DARK ANGELS AND IT ISTHEREFORE IMPOSSIBLE TO REPRESENT TRAITOR DARK ANGELS ON THE TABLETOP AS THEY HAVE NEVER EXISTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.