Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Imagine a scenario like in Rambo: First Blood, just instead of John Rambo there is an average Space Marine veteran (chapter doesn't matter), and instead of the Nation Guard you have a Storm Trooper (Tempestus Scions) battalion, lets say 1000 man strong with support vehicle and everything a modern battalion has (they have constant supply of food, water and ammunition). The veteran has only a power Rambo knife, in a secondary scenario he his fully equipped with power armor, bolter gun, power sword etc. If the veteran dies or is captured he lose, if the battalion loses more than 2/3 of manpower they lose. No outside interference, no reinforcement.

I expect the veteran wins in both scenarios because he will not go head on, he will use guerrila tactics and take them out one by one or group by group, even if it takes him months to do it. One SM must overcome such treath to make a significant impact in WH40K war, even more with a full squad.

Your opinion please.

The Marine will get slaughtered as Scions are little Rambos in their own self. They're not half trained Imperial Guard or National Guard or what have you, they're Space Navy Seals/JTF2/SAS/Insert your own special forces unit here with guns that can penetrate Power Armor with ease.

Replace the SM with Marbo. Then the scions have no chance.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Marine will get slaughtered as Scions are little Rambos in their own self. They're not half trained Imperial Guard or National Guard or what have you, they're Space Navy Seals/JTF2/SAS/Insert your own special forces unit here with guns that can penetrate Power Armor with ease.

Then why creating a hole sci-fi universe around SM if there are just little better than storm troopers. Maybe I have imagined them differently because I just read the novels.

I see between both Bob and KJ's view. Scions are arguably the best human soldiers in the Imperium, and should certainly not be trifled with. However, a Space Marine is special for a reason. They are very much the pinnacle of standard Imperial military units (taking away niche units such as Custodes, Grey Knights and Deathwatch) and will spell doom for most opponents.

I would tier a guerilla Space Marine vet against a regiment of Scions at about five-ten scions to the Space Marine, if the Astartes gets the drop. In a pitched fight, the Marine could handle about five Scions. If the Scions get the drop, the Marine will be lucky to kill one or two.

The Marine is godly tough, even without power armour. Their close combat prowess is far above the Scion, who would struggle to harm the marine. At range though, the bolter might struggle to disable the well armoured Scions, and with the Scions being pretty well equipped and armed, they can bring down a careless Space Marine with their hotshots.
Scions also communicate very well, just under Marine level - if a squad went down, the Marine would have issues remaining stealthy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KJ wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Marine will get slaughtered as Scions are little Rambos in their own self. They're not half trained Imperial Guard or National Guard or what have you, they're Space Navy Seals/JTF2/SAS/Insert your own special forces unit here with guns that can penetrate Power Armor with ease.

Then why creating a hole sci-fi universe around SM if there are just little better than storm troopers. Maybe I have imagined them differently because I just read the novels.

Space Marines are VERY good, but their actions tend to be exaggerated a lot. However, they are much better than stormtroopers in regard to the morale boost they bring and their strong tactics, independence and durability.

Sgt_Smudge has the right idea.
A Space Marine is far superior to any stormtrooper. But against a 1000 he has little chance. Sure the veteran will have some success against the stormtroopers with his guerilla tactics and he might bring a quite a few down at first, but eventually they will be able to catch him. Scions are trained to an extremely high standard, they'd be able to eventually defeat the guerilla tactics of the veteran. And when they do catch him, their equipment allows them a good chance at taking him down, especially at range.

Replace the stormtroopers with PDF (the 40k equivelent of the National Guard) and the veteran will absolutely massacre them over time. A PDF regiment would not have the training needed to catch the veteran, and their patrols would not have the firepower needed to hurt him.

Scions not half trained.

Every lost contact slowly marked and mapped.
Ever triangulating down until they can corner and bring full force to bear

Also. Depends on the chaper of marine as to tactics.
Ie even guard may differ to a imperial fist, or a space shark.

Not every SM chapter is trained in guerrilla tactics (pretty sure SW, Black Templars and Flesh Tearers skip that section of the codex astartes if there is a section to begin with). Raven Guard are supposed to be pretty sneaky, so one of them might have a better chance. If the space marine turns out to be an Alpha Legion infiltrator (as all space marines inevitably are) that could be a big difference too.

I still think that the Scions would have to be reduced to at least 500 before the marine would have a chance, as he can't more faster than a Taurox and that's a lot of force if they can concentrate on him.

Side note: "constant supply of food, water and ammunition" tends to run counter to "no outside interference" . If the hunt lasts for months supplies will dwindle, and either they're getting shipped from somewhere or are stockpiled, either of which is something the SM could exploit.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
Not every SM chapter is trained in guerrilla tactics (pretty sure SW, Black Templars and Flesh Tearers skip that section of the codex astartes if there is a section to begin with). Raven Guard are supposed to be pretty sneaky, so one of them might have a better chance. If the space marine turns out to be an Alpha Legion infiltrator (as all space marines inevitably are) that could be a big difference too.

I still think that the Scions would have to be reduced to at least 500 before the marine would have a chance, as he can't more faster than a Taurox and that's a lot of force if they can concentrate on him.

Side note: "constant supply of food, water and ammunition" tends to run counter to "no outside interference" . If the hunt lasts for months supplies will dwindle, and either they're getting shipped from somewhere or are stockpiled, either of which is something the SM could exploit.

Breaking off hand guards and stocks, the marine might stand a chance at using a captured weapon, and if Las packs, there nearly infinite recharging.
So might be able to keep ammo stable creatively.

I know that Space marines are incredibly tough, they are the finest the Emperor has to offer, but however this is just one Space Marine.

The Tempstus Scions are extremely well-trained and armed up to the point where they likely have all the combat talent of a Space Marine except without all the genetic fun.

I can imagine a Space Marine being able to take on 2-3 Scions since Veteran Space Marines are fairly tough. but this is not 2-3 Scions, this is 1000 of them, and this SM only has a power knife. as soon as the SM shows his face he'll frankly get vaporized by the sheer amount of 1000 Hellgun fire.

Even if he somehow takes out 1000 Scions he still has to deal with Taurox's with a dinky little knife or a bolter. he can't stand a chance, not to mention they get Valkyries, now the SM has to deal with Helicopters.

Basically, even if these were 1000 Conscripts or Ork Boyz's, they would still win and the SM would still die no matter what he could do.

However if this was Sly Marbo they'd all be fethed

I have been pondering this scenario for an hour and I still see it as more akin to the helicopter scene from Apocalypse Now than to Rambo. Valkyries raining death from the skies with the scions working to mop up the resulting mess.

"I love the smell of Hellstrikes in the morning"

Madokamagica wrote:
I know that Space marines are incredibly tough, they are the finest the Emperor has to offer, but however this is just one Space Marine.

The Tempstus Scions are extremely well-trained and armed up to the point where they likely have all the combat talent of a Space Marine except without all the genetic fun.

I can imagine a Space Marine being able to take on 2-3 Scions since Veteran Space Marines are fairly tough. but this is not 2-3 Scions, this is 1000 of them, and this SM only has a power knife. as soon as the SM shows his face he'll frankly get vaporized by the sheer amount of 1000 Hellgun fire.

Even if he somehow takes out 1000 Scions he still has to deal with Taurox's with a dinky little knife or a bolter. he can't stand a chance, not to mention they get Valkyries, now the SM has to deal with Helicopters.

Basically, even if these were 1000 Conscripts or Ork Boyz's, they would still win and the SM would still die no matter what he could do.

However if this was Sly Marbo they'd all be fethed

Space Marines are not stupid. He is not facing 1000 Scions all at the same time. The Scions will need to disperse in order to find the veteran. This leaves opportunities for the veteran to slowly take out the Scions one by one. A veteran Space Marine could easily take out a small Scion patrol, especially if he gets the drop on them.
Of course, Scions are extremely well-trained and have good equipment. They'd probably be proficient in counter-guerilla tactics and their kill-teams would eventually hunt down the veteran. 1000 Scions are just too much to deal with for one man, even if that man is a superhuman killing machine with 200 years of combat experience and is armoured like a main battle tank.

Unless the Marine is Alpha Legion. Then you know it is just going to end with an overly convuluted scheme that sees the Scions all splitting into rival factions that turn on and destroy each other. Complete with hundreds of contradictory reports of the Marine being killed. Hydra Dominatus!

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Madokamagica wrote:
I know that Space marines are incredibly tough, they are the finest the Emperor has to offer, but however this is just one Space Marine.

The Tempstus Scions are extremely well-trained and armed up to the point where they likely have all the combat talent of a Space Marine except without all the genetic fun.

I can imagine a Space Marine being able to take on 2-3 Scions since Veteran Space Marines are fairly tough. but this is not 2-3 Scions, this is 1000 of them, and this SM only has a power knife. as soon as the SM shows his face he'll frankly get vaporized by the sheer amount of 1000 Hellgun fire.

Even if he somehow takes out 1000 Scions he still has to deal with Taurox's with a dinky little knife or a bolter. he can't stand a chance, not to mention they get Valkyries, now the SM has to deal with Helicopters.

Basically, even if these were 1000 Conscripts or Ork Boyz's, they would still win and the SM would still die no matter what he could do.

However if this was Sly Marbo they'd all be fethed

Space Marines are not stupid. He is not facing 1000 Scions all at the same time. The Scions will need to disperse in order to find the veteran. This leaves opportunities for the veteran to slowly take out the Scions one by one. A veteran Space Marine could easily take out a small Scion patrol, especially if he gets the drop on them.
Of course, Scions are extremely well-trained and have good equipment. They'd probably be proficient in counter-guerilla tactics and their kill-teams would eventually hunt down the veteran. 1000 Scions are just too much to deal with for one man, even if that man is a superhuman killing machine with 200 years of combat experience and is armoured like a main battle tank.

Unless the Marine is Alpha Legion. Then you know it is just going to end with an overly convuluted scheme that sees the Scions all splitting into rival factions that turn on and destroy each other. Complete with hundreds of contradictory reports of the Marine being killed. Hydra Dominatus!

This.

The Space Marine isn't stupid, and could probably deal with small patrols well enough. However, with each Scion killed, the net becomes tighter, and the Space Marine would be dragged into open conflict sooner or later, and at that point, their chances of survival are negligible.

Agreed with Iron Captain and Smudge. 1v1000 is not something a Marine can win.

Unsure if a Terminator could. I have not seen hellguns vs TDA in the lore to my knowledge, and game mechanics are unreliable - sometimes AP3 means 'decent against TDA too' (power weapons) and sometimes AP3 means 'does not work against TDA' (krak missiles).

If the Space Marine is smart, he surrenders after three second of evaluation. If he isn't he is dead after ten seconds as Scions call an air strike from their Valkyrie on his little heat spot. He is a 7 foot tall meat bag with a knife. Fused rib cage and blood that cluts in a few seconds might seem impressive, but futuristic grenades, advance laser weapons (or even worse) will not make the difference between that and the body of a six years old kid with polio. In armor, Space Marines are noisy. In both your scenario, its unprobable your Space Marine has enough ammo to kill 600 person. He has at most 4 to 6 clip of about 30 bolts each. Scions are guerrilla and infiltration specialist. They are equipped with advanced weapon designed to kill people in heavy armor and fight in almost all condition.

Such a large force can, in a few days, your Space Marine might be stuck in a small zone with no access to water and food. Without water, the Space Marine is forced to enter hybernation within 6-7 days or die. Even PDF troopers would make short work of him by bombing him thanks to close range artillerie support. Canons are superior to Space Marines (except canons that happenned to be manned by Space Marines).

Obvious Sly Marbo reference aside, it would depend on a specific chapter. If the veteran would be a Raven Guard or a Raptor, then the Scions could have a hard time, but they are the elite of the elite and a 1000 of them... Well, my money would be on the little guys anyway.

What about Night Lords? that geezer from Soul Hunter?

Without water, the Space Marine is forced to enter hybernation within 6-7 days or die.

Wheres that from? I was under the impression marines can go for weeks without food/water/sleep at optimal efficiency.

The reason Rambo kicked so much ass was because the sheriff and the National Guard were a bunch of morons who were underestimated him at every turn. Scions would know not to underestimate the marine. On the other hand, marines are fracking insane in the fluff. Their regenerative capabilities would put most fantasy trolls to shame. The scions would have to take him out with a direct, fatal hit. Even so, the scions should win, unless it is a death world or some other horrible environment, then I would vote for the marine.

@Grumblewartz I just assumed that the environment was like in the movie. Death worlds could change the outcome. For example if the death world is irradiated then the SM could maybe wait them out, (how much radiation can space marines deal with? Also does the standard Tempestus kit include radiation-proof clothing?) but if it's like Catachan and everything is trying to kill you the Scions have the advantage (they can accidentally step on a Catchan Barking Toad and lose a squad multiple times, the marine can make no mistakes like that) and if it's a barren wasteland like the non-hiveworld side of Mordia then the marine is boned. Also if it's perpetually dark like the hiveworld part if Mordia then the Scions have an advantage too, as IIRC space marines from most gene seeds can't see in the dark. Though if it's a Space Wolf on an ice world or a Salamander near volcanic stuff things could get interesting. I think the SM's best bet is to either remember that he's an Alpha Legion sleeper agent, make a Hail Mary dash and try to steal some valkyries or something from their motor pool, negotiate, or fall to chaos and either get the powers he needs to fight them or summon someone/something who can, as it seems like CSM do better Rambo impressions. Sorry for the rambling (or should I say Rambo-ling?) but I hadn't even considered some of this stuff until now.

I don't know, aren't Space Marines supposed to withstand this kind of things ? Poisons etc... ?

The Marine would win. If, however, the position was reversed the Scion would win. This is due to Conservation of Ninjitsu.

You might want to warn people before linking them to tvtropes. My uncle got linked there 5 years ago and hasn't left. (In all seriousness that site is a good way to accidentally lose 3 hours browsing.)