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Hey all,

It has occurred to me (in part because of a few very narrow victories in some recent tournaments) that if you have a goal of making the cut at regionals (a definite personal record for me), that building a list that is hard to knock out in 75 minutes should probably be a goal.

This has come to mind in thinking about a double Defender/ Omega ldr list and the number of points invested in certain ships.

I think that it's pretty self evident that a Defender x7 is hard to push damage upon, but a Defender/ D is a lot more vulnerable. So, if my opponent is smart, he'll probably aim for Vessery/ D/ tractor (37 points with vi) before Ryad/ x7/lone wolf (or Juke) /stealth (also 37 points).

And omega leader (even at just 26 points with juke & comms) is also low hanging fruit to a party bus (one of the builds I'm most scared of).

So does it make the most sense to build an imperial Defender/ ace list around the idea of being hard to kill/playing the clock (and then also playing "catch me if you can " with my maneuvers) or is there strength in a stronger offense?

I honestly haven't thought about points value in my opening target choices, but when time is running low, I definitely aim for what I can kill/get to half points.

And in some of the games I've done best in, I've pulled opening round fake outs, sacrificing a round or two of shooting to throw off opponents who get "buck fever " and force split shooting/ less optimal target choices for my opponent. (And in early games, thinking about the mantra of not splitting fire, I fell victim to this myself).

So, a) how much (if any) thought do you give to the points vs survivability of the ships in your list and b) how much (if at all) do you design/ play your list and with an eye towards the 75 minute time limit of most tournament rounds?

Building to survive for 75 minutes is not a good strategy. It used to be easier when the standard round time was 60 minutes but at 75 minutes most of your games are going to be finishing within the time limit unless you're cheating by slow playing. Build to win the game by killing all of your opponent's ships, clock management should be a last resort.

So here are some lists conceived before the Falcon weighed in:

Offensive option:
------

Colonel Vessery (37)
TIE Defender (35), Tractor beam (1), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/D (0)

Countess Ryad (37)
TIE Defender (34), Lone Wolf (2), TIE/x7 (-2), Stealth Device (3)

“Omega Leader” (26)
TIE/fo Fighter (21), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2)
----------
Defensive version

------
Countess Ryad (36)
TIE Defender (34), Push the Limit (3), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Colonel Vessery (35)
TIE Defender (35), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2)

“Omega Leader” (29)
TIE/fo Fighter (21), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2), Hull Upgrade (3)

(Note that this version possibly makes Omega a better/ more lucrative target)


Finally, the buy another Defender option (which actually must compete with a lambda/Palpatine) :

------

Countess Ryad (36)
TIE Defender (34), Push the Limit (3), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Colonel Vessery (36)
TIE Defender (35), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Delta Squadron Pilot (28)
TIE Defender (30), TIE/x7 (-2)

Well, I am going to piggy back off this thread, I have been contemplating a similar topic. I have never participated in a tournament outside of small store tournaments, and have been trying to get my mind around what it takes to make a really good list for Imperials. I have been seeing a lot of Defenders, Palpatine and Fel in a lot of the top lists, is a Palpatine aces list really our only viable option? Or is something like these two lists viable outside of smaller tournaments.

Soontir Fel:
-Autothrusters
-Stealth Device
-Royal Guard TIE
-Push the Limit

Howlrunner:
-Crack Shot

3x Black Squadron Pilot:
-Crack Shot

99 Points

My biggest issue with this list is that Fel is good, very good, but without some Palpatine Support a bad roll can very quickly send him to an untimely demise. This list has been my go-to list and served me very, very well. But with Black Market Slicer tools I feel like it will start to run into some real trouble soon.

So would it be worth giving this a try as I try to step up my game for bigger tournaments:

Glaive Squadron Pilot:
-Twin Ion Engine Mk. II
-TIE/x7
-Veteran Instincts

Howlrunner:
-Crack Shot

3x Black Squadron Pilot
-Crack Shot

98 Points

My current thinking is every with TripJumps gone there are still lists that can spew out enough damage that surviving 75mins is an uphill battle, not impossible by any means but I just don't think it's where the game currently is;

The lists I have drifting about in my head are currently

1) Double IG, maybe with BMST

2) IG and a Partybus with IG-D

3) Some kind of Snap-Shot swarm, leaning towards A-Wings because of double EPT giving either Crack Shot or Juke but Black Tie's might be worth an investigate

4) G1-A with Tacts / BMST back up with Z95's with moar BMST, this one is most likely no good but I really like the G1 model

5) Scum HWKs and Y-Wing TLT 'fun'

I don't know about the Soontir mini swarm but generally speaking, the best swarms I've seen played have had some Academy pilots mixed in for blockers. And my personal experience with a double Defender double black list was that the blacks died to very little return. I did have a bit of trouble with a youngster-rage mini swarm (other ship was a Decimator) but I did win the game even without the blacks.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
So would it be worth giving this a try as I try to step up my game for bigger tournaments:

Glaive Squadron Pilot:
-Twin Ion Engine Mk. II
-TIE/x7
-Veteran Instincts

Howlrunner:
-Crack Shot

3x Black Squadron Pilot
-Crack Shot

98 Points

As for this, I'd say a pretty definite nope to the solo Glaive. Ryad is just better than a Glaive by so much it's not funny.

Again, I'm not sold on the mini swarm in general, but if you go this way, drop one black for an Academy and use the points to get ryad with PTL (which is just a solid, solid build)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:


The lists I have drifting about in my head are currently

1) Double IG, maybe with BMST

2) IG and a Partybus with IG-D

3) Some kind of Snap-Shot swarm, leaning towards A-Wings because of double EPT giving either Crack Shot or Juke but Black Tie's might be worth an investigate

4) G1-A with Tacts / BMST back up with Z95's with moar BMST, this one is most likely no good but I really like the G1 model

5) Scum HWKs and Y-Wing TLT 'fun'

No. 2 gives me nightmares in ways that the Brobots never have.

There's a guy who runs/writes about a 4 a-wing build (all with PTL and wingman) that's pretty strong (i think he made the top cut at new England regionals a few months back). I've tried replicating the idea with Imperial ships but nothing I could think of came close (back to dials website has his article on the "finger four " formation)

No. 4 I don't know about but I don't think you have enough stress dealing to go all in with BMST.

No. 5 is probably still solid but as you imply, not much fun. And it might be quite weak against Palpatine Defender lists which have both survivability and firepower over many traditional Palp aces builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Building to survive for 75 minutes is not a good strategy. It used to be easier when the standard round time was 60 minutes but at 75 minutes most of your games are going to be finishing within the time limit unless you're cheating by slow playing. Build to win the game by killing all of your opponent's ships, clock management should be a last resort.

In retrospect, I realized that my timing issues came up in 60 minute games, so my perspective is a bit skewed.

That's not to say that clock management/ target priority towards the end of the match isn't important. But I am coming to agree that it should not be a major factor in list building.

But I'm still not sure where to place a stealth device in my Defender & Omega Leader list...

Also, I'm pretty sure that lone wolf is going to take a fair bit of practice to use... what's your experience? Should I ditch it for Juke? Or should I ditch the defense buff of stealth/ hull for something else (predator/ PTL for ryad and something else?

Omega Leader can get more mileage out of a Stealth Device, imho, than a Hull Upgrade.

I've been trying the finger four lists for a while now and any list that is moderately efficient and run by an opponent that knows his rule of eleven will plaster a-wings all over the board. The best thing going for a-wings are the 3 green dice, and let's be honest, a turn of sucking at dice can really put a crimp on your firepower.

Palp Aces are still great, and Ryad + Vessery w/X7 titles just rule. O Leader is just a great pocket ace that can't be ignored and dovetails as a solo element to distract/annoy flankers or big ships.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Omega Leader can get more mileage out of a Stealth Device, imho, than a Hull Upgrade

I offered the hull upgrade idea as an alternative because Omega sometimes wants to hold the evade for Juke... but i suspect it isn't the best.

My real question then comes back to whether ryad gets more use out of the stealth or Omega Leader...

Omega Leader, imho. Ryad, if she doesn't have Juke, can spend her evade merrily. Omega Leader wants to hang onto his, and since he attacks fairly high in the chain, yeah no I'd rather have another fickle dice than one more wound.

Yeah, definitely OLeader. Ryad with stealth isn't a free kill, but she's still reasonably likely to take damage and lose the stealth device before she can get much out of it. OLeader, on the other hand, becomes virtually unkillable 1v1 with a stealth device. With 4-5 green dice, an evade token banked, a focus token, and no enemy dice modification even the "hope for fluke dice luck" plan starts to become incredibly unlikely to succeed. So when you have a choice of a reasonable improvement to one ship or creating the endgame ship from hell you take the one that's borderline game-breaking.