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[size=12]Greetings and good day to you DakkaDakka. This will be my maiden voyage post for these forums (even though I have been lurking here for quite a long time). So let's get right to it. I am currently working on an updating, re-balancing, and fun enhancing project for 40K (that I hope to be posting in the next week or two), and I started musing upon the idea of a change to a D12 system. Here's my thoughts:

Merits:
-A D12 allows for 2 times the variance in resolution over the current D6 system, I like variety and this seems like it could be a fair amount without being overwhelming.
-Moving to a base 12 stat line with the higher degree of variance in resolution could make for much more "uniqueness" between units; even within the same codex.
-Having an entire system built around them means all the D12s in my dice box would no longer have to cry themselves to sleep at night because no one wants to play with them (I DM for a D&D group).
-Using a D12 still allows for the use of a D3 and D6 without needing more than one type of die.

Downsides:
-It would require a complete re-write of the 40K core rules and all codexes. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing the update I am currently working on wasn't intended to be a complete re-write; as that would be a ton of work I probably don't have the time to finish. (my applause to those of you that have done complete re-writes).
-D12s are not the most widely available type of die.

So Dakka what are your thoughts on this? Is it a system you would like to try? What are some more positives/negatives? I've been a tabletop and pen and paper gamer for a long time and I quite enjoy coming up with my own rule systems. I've even done some consulting and playtesting for game design teams (WotC and Piazo), so I don't want to dismiss the idea of a completely overhauled system.

Cheers and happy wargaming!

While it's true it can add more variance and nuance the % chance of success stays exactly the same half the time and the other half the time your giving ,5 boosts. So it really depends on what you intend to do with it.

Currently a BS of 4 succeeds 2/3rds of the time. So if the bulk of space marines are BS 4 and that is considered pretty great by the d6 balancing (hahaha balancing in 40k) on a d12 that would be BS 8.

A BS 10 would be equivalent to BS5. So you have really only added the nuance of BS9 in between. Who do you think should have a BS9 that previously had a 8? Who needs MORE than a 2/3rds chance of success but not a 5/6ths?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yes, and because ld rolls are on 2d6 atm the most common result is a 7. out of 11 possible results. Any result can be rolled but probability is skewed in favor of 7. If Ld is instead rolled on a d12 you have now created 12 possible results with no result being particularly favorable. It will effect the way Ld scores currently function and just something to keep in mind.

7 is the lowest statistically positive ld score.by a pretty decent chunk in 40k. Every point of ld above it is in addition to that fact. 7+ ld on a d12 would still be statistically positive but not by the same magnitude.

Just something to consider.

A D10 would fix better honestly, but currently with the way the rules are it would be terrible either way.

You would either redo LD/Moral/Init?etc.. tests completely and the stats of all the units, or you would have to add more rules like Modifiers.

It would fix some tables/charts or some rules, but would make other rules worst.

I dont feel we need to change from a D6

D10 is mathematically easier to deal with. I think modified D10 rules would be significantly better without as many extreme changes as you're going to need sticking with a D6. Too many units to differentiate.

Good thoughts here. Lance845 thanks for adding some probabilities. It's far to early after a long night at work for me to be mathing, lol. I hadn't even started to consider how it would effect leadership and will contemplate a suitable resolution system there. Leadership/Moral is actually one of my big gripes about 40K. I believe it should have a larger effect on the game than game than it does, and strategies built around breaking your opponents moral should be more viable (but that's just me). As for the other characteristics I was thinking more along the lines of a complete rebalancing as opposed to just making the probabilities of success the same with a different shaped polyhedron.
-Lets use Marines BS as an example for a moment, the Tactical vs the Veteran. Under a re-written D12 system a Tactical Marine shooting might succeed 60% of the time where as a Veteran Marine might succeed 70 or 75% of the time (decades or even centuries in constant war really should improve your skills a bit IMHO). As a side note - I play primarily for the fluff and generally avoid highly competitive tournament scenes. That being said I also a appreciate a balanced game. Those percentages are just a spitball example. But, do you get where I'm going with it?
-Amishprn86 I've put a lot of thought into a D10 system as well and I quite like the idea, but it has been discussed in several other boards so I didn't want to rehash it here. I was going in the direction of redoing all the stat values completely in the lofty but noble hope of a balanced 40K that considers both gameplay value and fluff (heresy I know ) with some sweet miniatures thrown in for good measure.
Thanks again guys. I look forward to your continued thoughts.

Count me as one of those in favour of a D12 system.

The D12 has a lot of merit, but if were moving outside the D6, i feel like the D8 would be the best choice rather than a D10 or D12.

If you have too many Dice faces, its going to be an argument about exactly where something will be, or youll end up with a bunch of underutilized values.

The D8 imrpoved the current resolution by 33%, which seems like its enough to help resolutionwithout watering it down

D10 for the win since it'd be similar to Dark Heresy.

Just using a larger dice size without sorting out the core issues with the 40k rule set would be a bit pointless.

Rather like just putting a bigger engine in a car to improve performance, rather than look at the drive train and suspension set up.
It will not fix the over steer, under steer, torque steer issues from having a front wheel drive set up with an over powered engine for example.

If you change the game to roll fewer dice, larger dice sizes can be used.
But while you still roll 30+ dice per unit D6s are the most practical dice to use.

You don't have to necessarily roll fewer dice. Like the OP says, having more values means a better chance of variance to more accurately portray the abilities of each unit. Alternatively, you could also use this as a means for reducing the number of times you have to roll. Since players have to roll to hit, wound, and then armor save, more values on the dice means they can combine stats together, like toughness and armor save, and make it so you only have to hit and wound.

D12.

Roll two D6.
Cheapest as everyone has tons of em already

How would you get a 1 and how would you resolve multiple shots of units?

 jhe90 wrote:
D12.

Roll two D6.
Cheapest as everyone has tons of em already

Plus that has a bell curve-a d12 doesn't,

Can any one name another game system that used D12 or D10 and rolls 20 or more dice at a time?

40k uses D6 because it is the dice best suited to mass rolling.And 40k rolls at least one dice per minature in combat.And lots of units have to roll more than 20 dice !

Why not look at using a D6 more intelligent ways to increase the amount of possible results instead?

 Lance845 wrote:
While it's true it can add more variance and nuance the % chance of success stays exactly the same half the time and the other half the time your giving ,5 boosts. So it really depends on what you intend to do with it.

Currently a BS of 4 succeeds 2/3rds of the time. So if the bulk of space marines are BS 4 and that is considered pretty great by the d6 balancing (hahaha balancing in 40k) on a d12 that would be BS 8.

A BS 10 would be equivalent to BS5. So you have really only added the nuance of BS9 in between. Who do you think should have a BS9 that previously had a 8? Who needs MORE than a 2/3rds chance of success but not a 5/6ths?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yes, and because ld rolls are on 2d6 atm the most common result is a 7. out of 11 possible results. Any result can be rolled but probability is skewed in favor of 7. If Ld is instead rolled on a d12 you have now created 12 possible results with no result being particularly favorable. It will effect the way Ld scores currently function and just something to keep in mind.

7 is the lowest statistically positive ld score.by a pretty decent chunk in 40k. Every point of ld above it is in addition to that fact. 7+ ld on a d12 would still be statistically positive but not by the same magnitude.

Just something to consider.

This. The amount of actual statistical difference switching to a d10 or d12 system would allow is pretty small. Yes, you could disitnguish between the BS of a guardsman and a storm trooper without necessarily making that storm trooper as good at shooting as a marine, but the actual on-the-table effect would be pretty minor. In exchange for this minor impact upon your average roll results, you'd have to deal with a less wieldy (and harder to accumulate en masse) die size. Plus, you'd have to deal with wonky bell curve-dependent rules like leadership.

Basically, doing a d10 or d12 system would technically work, but it would be less easy to roll out, you'd have to redesign a lot of stuff to make it work (who's volunteering to decide what gets to be BS 7 instead of BS 6 of 8 on every unit in the game?), and at that point, you'd probably be better off redesigning the whole game/making a new game from scratch. Which is cool if that what you want to do. It's just that it isn't really a stand-alone change. Rather than rolling 60 d12s to represent a bunch of shoota boyz firing on an enemy unit, you'd probably be better off changing the core mechanic to operate on rolling fewer dice. Like rolling a single d10 for the squad, adding a bonus based on the number of models firing, and then compare the result to your BS stat to determine the result. Which again, is fine and could be really cool, but you're going to have to change a lot more than just the statlines of units to make it work.