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In the rules for 40k it states that jump units can end their move on top of inpassible terrain, but count it as dangerous terrain. Can deepstriking jump infantry deepstrike on impassible terrain and not mishap?

As long as they can physically remain there, I guess it's ok (like the top of a flat mesa without land access).

 Vector Strike wrote:
As long as they can physically remain there, I guess it's ok (like the top of a flat mesa without land access).

Blu Tac on the bottom of the base helps extend the definition of "can physically remain there".

This scenario is a little weird, because we are dealing with a situation of two Advanced Rules, and the rulebook does not really go in to depth as to which one has primacy.

Effectively speaking, both rules are rather contradictory. It is either that or you bring the models down, put them through a Dangerous Terrain Test and then roll the Mishap table.

I would personally say that you could (as long as you took the dangerous terrain test), as there's nothing I could find to say that they can't, and it would make sense that way. However, it probably won't pass in tournaments, and I would always check with my opponent before playing.

Batsam wrote:
I would personally say that you could (as long as you took the dangerous terrain test), as there's nothing I could find to say that they can't, and it would make sense that way. However, it probably won't pass in tournaments, and I would always check with my opponent before playing.

It depends on how you read, "If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong."

If the primary consideration is only "cannot be deployed", with the rest of the sentence just being examples of how a unit cannot be deployed instead of hard rules, then yes, that is perfectly fine.

However, if the rest of the sentence is also describing specific instances of "something has gone wrong", then we are dealing with a situation where it is telling you that you can't and providing a conflict with another Advanced Rule found in the Unit Type.

After having reviewed the quoted sentence again, I'm leaning more on the former interpretation, personally.

Personally I'm leaning towards the idea that you could, though it is a very prickly situation. As in the jump infantry rules stating as they treat impassible as dangerous terrain I would imagine then in reguards to deepstriking you treat impassible as dangerous, so no mishaps. I would hope that they would accept this ruling in tournaments as it would really help my raptor talon in case they landed on a building or in the middle of a wrecked land raider.

Jump units, in the BRB:

SKYBORNE

When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or Falling Back, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Jump units, in the BRB:

SKYBORNE

When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or Falling Back, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.

That has been acknowledged, even if it has not been directly quoted. Is there something that you wanted to point out regarding it?

The difficulty, as I pointed out earlier, is that there are two different Advanced Rules in play here, Jump Units' Skyborne, and Deep Strike's Mishaps. Neither has primacy over the other. So, it comes down to how you interpret Deep Strike's Mishap clauses.

This is a bit of a sticky situation but the answer is straight forward (as I see it).

Turn begins

reserves arrive : at this point the units deep strike and suffer a mishap

movement begins: all other units move
movement ends: If any units are now on top of impassible terrain they suffer a DT test.

In a friendly game I'd say they can stay there but RAW the mishap happens before movement even begins.

Also jump infantry treat impassible as dangerous when moving. I don't think that changes how they can deploy.

 MattKing wrote:
This is a bit of a sticky situation but the answer is straight forward (as I see it).

Turn begins

reserves arrive : at this point the units deep strike and suffer a mishap

movement begins: all other units move
movement ends: If any units are now on top of impassible terrain they suffer a DT test.

In a friendly game I'd say they can stay there but RAW the mishap happens before movement even begins.

Also jump infantry treat impassible as dangerous when moving. I don't think that changes how they can deploy.

Models Deep Striking are to be considered has having moved in that Movement Phase. This Movement is not directly connected to actual Jump movement, save for the statement in the previous paragraph. This ability is connected directly to it being a Jump Model.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Jump units, in the BRB:

SKYBORNE

When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or Falling Back, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.

So looking at the skyborne rule, I would say, it depends if deepstriking is movement(I don't have my rulebook so I can't check) and not only counting has having moved. Because if deepstriking isn't movement, then the skyborne rule doesn't come into play

terry wrote:
So looking at the skyborne rule, I would say, it depends if deepstriking is movement(I don't have my rulebook so I can't check) and not only counting has having moved. Because if deepstriking isn't movement, then the skyborne rule doesn't come into play

Okay, how is the model put in to place if it is not moved nor considered to have moved after the game has started?

Keep in mind, that "counts as movement" is sufficient to engage the Movement rules considerations. It is one of the things listed as causing a Mishap (would land...within 1" of an enemy model).

It seems we have a bit of a catch 22.

If the unit successfully deploys on the table it is a jump unit that moved into impassible terrain, and is therefore, a valid placement.

However If the the unit is placed onto impassable terrain it cannot deploy, has not moved or entered play, and therefore triggers mishap.

Mishap is triggered by impassable terrain, but not dangerous terrain. Jump Infantry only ever deal with impassable terrain if a model cannot be placed on it. As such, if a deep striking Jump Infantry unit has models that cannot be legally placed, the unit mishaps. However, if the unit can legally place all of its models, its not a mishap, just same dangerous terrain tests.

Issue resolved per RAW.

SJ

^ This is the issue that we're having. Jump infantry do not deal with dangerous terrain because of the skyborn rule.
If they have not moved, the skyborn rule does not apply.

So, does the act of deployment via deepstriking count as movement in and of itself?


It's a minor rules nitpick but an interesting one as it hinges on the order of actions and when special rules are triggered.

 MattKing wrote:
^ This is the issue that we're having. Jump infantry do not deal with dangerous terrain because of the skyborn rule.
If they have not moved, the skyborn rule does not apply.

So, does the act of deployment via deepstriking count as movement in and of itself?


It's a minor rules nitpick but an interesting one as it hinges on the order of actions and when special rules are triggered.

The Deep Strike rules seem to think so:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

If one has not moved, how can one move further?

Further on:

In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase.

So, yeah, the Deep Striking rules seem to consider this Movement.

Still, unless all the models are in the same Terrain or the Impassable Terrain is flat on the board, they will not be able to maintain Base Contact with one another. If they cannot do that, the unit cannot deploy, which triggers Mishaps.

But when is the unit considered to having ended their move? Before or after checking for mishap?

IOW is the order:
Place first model; roll for scatter; place remaining models; check for mishap; unit has moved.
Or is it
Place first model; roll for scatter, place remaining models; unit has moved; check for mishap.

If it is the first scenario, they would mishap prior to ending their move in impassable terrain. If the second, they would just have to take a Dangerous Terrain test.

Some of you are over thinking this. It's a none issue. Skyborn covers both dealing with impassable terrain and being able to deep strike. Deep Strike counts as movement. Mishap occurs when placement cannot be completed. Arguing which effect takes place first ignores the fact that neither effect is mutually contradicting.

TDA that drift onto impassable terrain mishap.

Skyborn units that drift onto impassable terrain will mishap if the models cannot be legally placed. If the models can be legally placed due to Skyborn, no mishap can occur due to placement.

SJ

 Charistoph wrote:

The Deep Strike rules seem to think so:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

If one has not moved, how can one move further?

Further on:

In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase.

So, yeah, the Deep Striking rules seem to consider this Movement.

Still, unless all the models are in the same Terrain or the Impassable Terrain is flat on the board, they will not be able to maintain Base Contact with one another. If they cannot do that, the unit cannot deploy, which triggers Mishaps.

count as moving and moving aren't the same thing. But the first quote does indeed seem to imply that deepstrike is a form off movement

terry wrote:

count as moving and moving aren't the same thing. But the first quote does indeed seem to imply that deepstrike is a form off movement

An interesting statement. How do you plan on supporting that?

The use of "counting as" and "treating as" in the 40K rulebook and supplements are used when a temporary status is existing which does not normally apply.

A Relentless model is not forced to stay still when it wants to Shoot a Weapon at full BS, it is "counting as stationary". It is not literally stationary, but for the purposes of Shooting, "it has not moved". Are you saying, then, that a Relentless model does indeed Snap Fire Heavy Weapons if it has moved that turn?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
But when is the unit considered to having ended their move? Before or after checking for mishap?

IOW is the order:
Place first model; roll for scatter; place remaining models; check for mishap; unit has moved.
Or is it
Place first model; roll for scatter, place remaining models; unit has moved; check for mishap.

If it is the first scenario, they would mishap prior to ending their move in impassable terrain. If the second, they would just have to take a Dangerous Terrain test.

There is no actual conflict of timing. The very first model would usually have to fail in order for it to qualify. Jump models are what are quoted as fulfilling this, not the unit. Deep Strike then considers if a single model cannot be deployed. The actual rule that triggers Mishap could easily (and more reliably, imo) as is the inability to deploy a model that causes the Mishap, period, and that being placed in Impassable Terrain is a normal condition of "cannot be deployed".

The actual question being asked is, "can I deploy a Jump Unit by moving it on to Impassable Terrain?" Can an Outflanking Jump unit move on to Impassable Terrain when they arrive? Can a Jump Unit not Deep Striking but arriving from the Deployment Edge move on to Impassable Terrain when they arrive?

My instinct is the jump troops are coming in with their jump packs, and the phrase "may not move any further" seals the deal for me.

I'd consider their deep strike deployment to be moving with jump packs and apply all rules thusly (also meaning if it is a deep strike and assault unit, it would not be able to use the jump packs for the assault move).

 Charistoph wrote:

terry wrote:

count as moving and moving aren't the same thing. But the first quote does indeed seem to imply that deepstrike is a form off movement

An interesting statement. How do you plan on supporting that?

The use of "counting as" and "treating as" in the 40K rulebook and supplements are used when a temporary status is existing which does not normally apply.

A Relentless model is not forced to stay still when it wants to Shoot a Weapon at full BS, it is "counting as stationary". It is not literally stationary, but for the purposes of Shooting, "it has not moved". Are you saying, then, that a Relentless model does indeed Snap Fire Heavy Weapons if it has moved that turn?

No, because they count as stationary for the purposes of shooting and so you iqnore the move when shooting

terry wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

terry wrote:

count as moving and moving aren't the same thing. But the first quote does indeed seem to imply that deepstrike is a form off movement

An interesting statement. How do you plan on supporting that?

The use of "counting as" and "treating as" in the 40K rulebook and supplements are used when a temporary status is existing which does not normally apply.

A Relentless model is not forced to stay still when it wants to Shoot a Weapon at full BS, it is "counting as stationary". It is not literally stationary, but for the purposes of Shooting, "it has not moved". Are you saying, then, that a Relentless model does indeed Snap Fire Heavy Weapons if it has moved that turn?

No, because they count as stationary for the purposes of shooting and so you iqnore the move when shooting

So, then why can we not use the same considerations when counting a Jump unit Deep Striking in to Impassable Terrain? It is the same standard of consideration.

The issue for me is that they don't count as having moved until after you resolve the Deep Strike, which includes the mishap. Since the mishap occurs during deep strike, it would occur before the unit ends their move in Impassable terrain. As such, the unit does not treat impassable terrain as Dangerous until they have already mishapped.

 Happyjew wrote:
The issue for me is that they don't count as having moved until after you resolve the Deep Strike

There is no such statement supporting this (though, it doesn't specifically deny this, either). The Reserves rules themselves do state that a unit does, indeed Move when the come on, but Deep Strike alters much of the "Moving On From Reserves" rules.

The phrase, "may not move any more", does indicate that it isn't waiting for the Deep Strike to be fully resolved before finishing its Movement any more than placing the first Jump Infantry on Impassable Terrain requires all the models to be in the same Terrain before getting to ignore it.

Finally, deploying in Impassable Terrain does not have to be read as a specific condition, just an example as to how a normal unit cannot deploy in Impassable Terrain. The specific condition is, "If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because...", which the Jump Infantry's Skyborne rules can adequately address.