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Some of you may have seen my previous topic, but those who haven't, here's the subject in a nutshell. As things stand, despite it being a culturally and socially relevant activity in the Uk for the last hundred odd years, there is currently no museum dedicated to miniature wargaming operating within the UK. As someone with has certain contacts within the heritage sector, I had a meeting with a number of wargamers who work in that field last week, and we decided that this might be something we could rectify.

Now whilst we're in the process of drawing up precisely what this would entail, governing documents, plans of action, and so forth, one of the key requirements to starting up any form of project like this is to ask: "What is it that the community actually wants?" We know what we think is required, and what we think would work well, but that's of no use to anyone if it differs substantially from what the public wants. As such, prior to releasing any sort of statement of what we're up to, and biasing opinions, we'd like to ask Dakka (both foreigners, and locals) a few questions as preliminary research, with our thanks in advance for all answers provided.

The questions are as follows:-
-What sort of exhibits would you expect to see in a museum dedicated to miniature wargaming?
-Do you believe that the focus of any sort of museum collection should be weighted towards more contemporary wargaming (to reflect its explosion over the last thirty years), or be split evenly between that and older games?
-Do you think that exhibits/events should be focused upon miniature wargaming purely as a historical concern, or would you prefer a more interactive approach? (so painting/sculpting classes, classic games laid out where they can be handled and played, etc)
-What sort of exhibits, events, or facilities would attract you to visiting this kind of institution?

Many thanks.

I'm more than happy to offer my opinion, for what it is worth;

I'd expect to see exhibits on miniatures, award winning paint jobs art, rules, manufacturing, and key figures in the industry.

I think the weighting would have to lean towards modern, purely because the range is bigger and they are more accessible. That said, I'd rather see older and limited edition models that would be hard for me to just buy myself.

I'd only be interested in interactivity if it was with someone recognisable and worth the trip. I wouldn't personally allow people to game with the exhibits due to theft, especially on OOP products. That could be the focus of events though.

In terms of exhibits, extending from above, I'd expect everything painted to a good display standard, some evocative dioramas, and maybe some sculpts that never made it to production.

Free parking, easy to get to, and decent tea and coffee would incentivise me to go, as would being able to buy products I couldn't get elsewhere.

Hope that is useful.

 Ketara wrote:

The questions are as follows:-
1 -What sort of exhibits would you expect to see in a museum dedicated to miniature wargaming?
2 -Do you believe that the focus of any sort of museum collection should be weighted towards more contemporary wargaming (to reflect its explosion over the last thirty years), or be split evenly between that and older games?
3 -Do you think that exhibits/events should be focused upon miniature wargaming purely as a historical concern, or would you prefer a more interactive approach? (so painting/sculpting classes, classic games laid out where they can be handled and played, etc)
4 -What sort of exhibits, events, or facilities would attract you to visiting this kind of institution?

Numbered for your pleasure.

1. A. fething miniatures. Seriously. Lots of them. Painted, unpainted, new in box, etc. But, most importantly, old gak. Like, whatever minis they were playing with 100 years ago. What terrain were people using?
B. Old advertizements. How did people know that you could buy miniatures 100 years ago? Sears catalog? Fliers and leaflets?

2. Since we're living in the golden age of miniatures, the last 30 years should have most of the focus.

3. There should be displays that you can't touch, and hands on gak, too. You would probably need to sign up in advance for painting classes and such. Just walking in, doing standard museum gak, then expecting to plop down and hog a table for 4 hours to paint might hurt your through traffic.

4. As in 1, old ass miniatures and advertisements. Show me the historical gak. Also, were there events back in the day? Tournaments? 12 guys bringing huge armies to feth around with on an afternoon? HOW were they used? How did people find other players? What famous people have played wargaming gak? New and old. Did Napoleon play miniatures? Would you count the WWII tables where fleet deployments were tracked with miniatures as miniature war gaming? If so, can you get your hands on some of that gak? Did historic generals and admirals and gak use miniatures for training purposes?

 Ketara wrote:

The questions are as follows:-
-What sort of exhibits would you expect to see in a museum dedicated to miniature wargaming?
-Do you believe that the focus of any sort of museum collection should be weighted towards more contemporary wargaming (to reflect its explosion over the last thirty years), or be split evenly between that and older games?
-Do you think that exhibits/events should be focused upon miniature wargaming purely as a historical concern, or would you prefer a more interactive approach? (so painting/sculpting classes, classic games laid out where they can be handled and played, etc)
-What sort of exhibits, events, or facilities would attract you to visiting this kind of institution?

Many thanks.

I'm sure I'll be repeating some other users but here goes:

Exhibits: dioramas where appropriate, even up to life sized ones. A "Smithsonian-esque" walk through where a viewer can see exhibits of Indus River peoples playing early forms of Chess, through Egyptian games, Napoleon and crew playing games, etc.

I think that weight of history should be applied judiciously, but should reflect reality... As you point out, the wargaming hobby has really exploded in the last thirty or so years, but I'd point out that the expectations on it have changed greatly in the last hundred or so (IIRC, during Napoleon's day and on through around WW1 or WW2, it was expected of a gentleman's children to play wargames as they were the ones expected to become the officers of the military).


As for exhibits, events, etc. I'm not sure, but I'd hope for some sort of small auditorium where you could have someone like Jes Goodwin come in and talk sculpting/design, or a designer from another studio talk rules development or something... though that probably wouldn't attract the general public all that well.

1 Miniatures lots of miniatures and a few generations of complete open boxed games. Also a variety of manufacturers not pure GW.
2 I would expect a bias towards the more recent stuff but I would hope most of it wouldn't be currently available
3. Given the size of facility I expect you can afford to maintain it should be more of a historical concern. Equally a gaming venue would be an obvious fundraiser but the focus should be on making it a museum not a shop. I'd lean towards gaming being formalised and supervised.
4. Well the Yggdrasillum Pilgrimage is tempting me to visit Warhammer World. Classic Wargames events and a turn up and try for a set number of people. Also a none manufacturer specific painting competition might tempt me. Honestly its mainly access so late and weekend opening combined with proximity. If it's in a town I've got a free weekend in anyway I'd certainly visit but I don't know whether I'd make a long trek out there.

The questions are as follows:-
-What sort of exhibits would you expect to see in a museum dedicated to miniature wargaming?
-Do you believe that the focus of any sort of museum collection should be weighted towards more contemporary wargaming (to reflect its explosion over the last thirty years), or be split evenly between that and older games?
-Do you think that exhibits/events should be focused upon miniature wargaming purely as a historical concern, or would you prefer a more interactive approach? (so painting/sculpting classes, classic games laid out where they can be handled and played, etc)
-What sort of exhibits, events, or facilities would attract you to visiting this kind of institution?

1. Miniature Wargaming through the ages. Chess to warplanning to modern dice rolling behmoths like 40k (as an example).
2. Weight towards modern but with a contexual background to past types and styles (see above)
3. Sculpting from earliest moulds/leads to CAD etc. Classic games, and demos
4. Interactivity, Demos, Designers, sculpters and artists. Hand pouring of lead/resin moulds could be a part if only as a demo run by 'professionals'.

Somewhere like Compton Verney would be a nice exhibition location. www.comptonverney.org.uk

I would like to see the evolution of the hobby from Military tool to recreational use today. i imagine it sort of like a timeline starting with older stuff about the development of Chess and Go, to Kreigspiel and its historical significance, to the old War College days, onto Little Wars to the more modern view. I imagine as we get closer to modern wargaming the timescale would compress into shorter periods.

I would expect to see documents of old staff college wargames, old boards, Bios and portraits of important people in developing wargames in the past, and I would expect to see the shiny!

If it is just a collection of old minis I am less interested. I want to know the context of why these are important.

-What sort of exhibits would you expect to see in a museum dedicated to miniature wargaming?

Dioramas, lots of cases or miniatures, good notices / videos / apps to explain significance. Dates, sculptors, designers, background of wargames story and of historical context.


-Do you believe that the focus of any sort of museum collection should be weighted towards more contemporary wargaming (to reflect its explosion over the last thirty years), or be split evenly between that and older games?

Personal preference for older games: I'm still PLAYING with 20 year old stuff. Also not sure how big an explosion really exists: 40 years ago my local club had 50+ members meeting weekly. It was hard to find out about them (no interweb then) but that club and several others locally continue to be active.


-Do you think that exhibits/events should be focused upon miniature wargaming purely as a historical concern, or would you prefer a more interactive approach? (so painting/sculpting classes, classic games laid out where they can be handled and played, etc)

Historical. I can get painting/sculpting elsewhere. While it would be nice to handle classic games, how long would they last before getting damaged or nicked? Also, while interactivity can be beneficial, I don't want to sit down and learn a new ruleset, or subset, every time I play.

-What sort of exhibits, events, or facilities would attract you to visiting this kind of institution?

Dioramas etc as above. An adjacent gaming centre and store could be fun, but as said above, they already exist elsewhere. Good café, clean disabled friendly toilets, friendly helpful staff, good parking and ease of access all help.

I also suspect that a wargamer's wants might be different from joe public's. Have a look at Soldiers in Silloth: maybe it already exists. Website looks good, but volunteer run. If it still exists (last post seems to be 2015) go see what they do well, what they could do better etc. Also, many toy museums have toy soldiers: where might you FIND exhibits to display that are not already out there, albeit separated in small collections?

The entrance rotunda should have a figure of H.G. Wells and a contemporary and their children (a boy and a girl) playing a game of little wars on the floor.

Contemporary figures and terrain as they would have had. A a couple of pamphlet copies of "Little Wars" on each side of the playing field with "dead soldiers" laying where they fell with the projectile not far away.

Then in historical order talk about Chess and it's developments alongside an illustration of "Jackyll and Hounds" and "Mancala", also "Go" then move forward in time to Frederick the Great and "Kriegspielen", that whole display brings you back around to the H.G. Wells display which moves you into the 20th century and talks about WW1, and the game developed by the fellow who's rulebook was as thick as the NYC Whitepages then show the use of Fletcher Pratt's navy game in use at Annapolis; then the true golden age of Featherstone, Morschauser, and Scruby. That gets you through half of the 70's. Then you can move on with Gygax, Livingston, Priestly, Jackson (both Steves). And that takes you to the Modern Era including Computer games - show how they were influenced by table top and vice versa. What is next display could be enhanced reality, with overlay miniatures from your tablet or VR headset.

Sorry a bit run on, but I wanted to get that all out as a stream of consciousness.

* Also don't forget about the old British TV series where they played war games on tv. You might even use pictures from other shows and movies which portray wargaming.

Also Peter III https://crossfireamersfoort.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/illustrious-wargamers-tsar-peter-iii-of-russia/

Yep what others mentioned, History of miniature gaming and miniatures. And not just UK, through the world.

And a Diorama of General Haig, " i don't understand on the board i always steamroll the Huns"

It would be lax to ignore the longer history of wargaming in favour of concentration on the past 30 years, partly because that would result in a museum that looked rather like Warhammer World with some stuff wedged in round the edges.

However, the problem is finding appealing exhibits for older time periods.

Harry Pearson's "Achtung Schweinehund!" gives a readable potted history of wargaming, for people interested in the subject.

I think obviously there have to be some models and dioramas, but they need to be used within a proper context, not just as goggle exhibits.

Thank you for this input gentlemen, do keep it coming!

 Ketara wrote:

-What sort of exhibits would you expect to see in a museum dedicated to miniature wargaming?

While obviously the focus should be on the miniatures, it would also be great to see anything and everything related to miniatures wargaming. So books, periodicals, terrain, evolution of rules/scales/design/painting displays.

-Do you believe that the focus of any sort of museum collection should be weighted towards more contemporary wargaming (to reflect its explosion over the last thirty years), or be split evenly between that and older games?

I think it would by its nature wind up skewed towards more modern stuff, but would certainly be worth wedging in as much older stuff as can be sourced.

-Do you think that exhibits/events should be focused upon miniature wargaming purely as a historical concern, or would you prefer a more interactive approach? (so painting/sculpting classes, classic games laid out where they can be handled and played, etc)

Not using it as a venue for classes, open gaming and organised events would seem like a massive missed opportunity to me.

-What sort of exhibits, events, or facilities would attract you to visiting this kind of institution?

Stuff that I can't see anywhere else. Galleries of miniatures that aren't just GW's. Bonkers dioramas. In-house events.

Beer wouldn't hurt, though.

 Ketara wrote:
-Do you believe that the focus of any sort of museum collection should be weighted towards more contemporary wargaming (to reflect its explosion over the last thirty years), or be split evenly between that and older games?

I think it should be weighted towards older games, or at least less well-known games. The modern era of wargaming is certainly nice, but it's also the stuff that visitors are most likely to be familiar with already. If people want to go see a bunch of displays of GW's latest space marine kits GW's own museum has that covered pretty well. Obviously a complete museum is going to include modern stuff, but the more obscure things are going to draw a lot more interest.

-Do you think that exhibits/events should be focused upon miniature wargaming purely as a historical concern, or would you prefer a more interactive approach? (so painting/sculpting classes, classic games laid out where they can be handled and played, etc)

Simply from a "what is possible" perspective static exhibits are the best thing to start with. Classes, playable games, etc, require a lot more labor and money as an ongoing expense. It might be nice to think about for the future, but it seems like something that wouldn't be very realistic for the early days.

There are certainly some common factors emerging here. Please do keep your opinions coming, as they will likely have a very real collective impact on things. Not often you can say that about a post on an internet forum!

 Ketara wrote:
The questions are as follows:-
1-What sort of exhibits would you expect to see in a museum dedicated to miniature wargaming?
2-Do you believe that the focus of any sort of museum collection should be weighted towards more contemporary wargaming (to reflect its explosion over the last thirty years), or be split evenly between that and older games?
3-Do you think that exhibits/events should be focused upon miniature wargaming purely as a historical concern, or would you prefer a more interactive approach? (so painting/sculpting classes, classic games laid out where they can be handled and played, etc)
4-What sort of exhibits, events, or facilities would attract you to visiting this kind of institution?

Many thanks.

1) At least one large diorama in each room of the museum (a full 4'x6' table at least) with multiple wall shelves of individual based minis (preferably painted or side by side painted and based next to raw metal/plastic) as well as rotating column displays in between shelves with smaller dioramas on each level. I'd expect "rooms" of the above structure to be based on genres for the modern era of gaming (1990s and up) or historical eras/decades for older games (like an 1800's room, a first half of the 1900's room, 1950-1980 room) similar to the various "ages" of comic books. I'd also expect a room devoted not just to eras or individual genres/games but also a room for the hobby aspects. A manufacturing room display showing various casting techniques (with actual machines if possible behind glass, not actually working) from different eras up to and including modern multi-core plastics. A painting room showing examples of various popular painting techniques and actual paints (enamels, lead based?, oils, water soluble, airbrushing, etc). And one room for interactive live displays for some flair.

2) I think it should be roughly divided up into thirds to start out with. 1/3 proven historically significant minis games (like Little Wars by HG Wells or D&D precursor Chainmail for instance) that are no longer played but significant for their long lasting effects. 1/3 long standing (20+ years) yet still relevant games like 40k or WHFB. 1/3 newer more recent innovators that are popular like X-wing. That last category would be the most fluid changing likely on a year by year basis. The second category (long standing but relevant) might change occasionally (like shifting WHFB over to the first category). The first category of historically significant games shouldn't ever frankly change except to add new exhibits (which might increase its percentage of floor space to at most 50% eventually with the other two categories at 25% each).

3) The vast majority should be devoted to simple displays but I firmly believe you should have one room with some live interactive displays as well. Demos of simple casting (resin pouring into rubber moulds for instance) twice or three times a day with the hardened figs from the previous casting given out to the viewers after showing the technique. A rotating set of one or two quick demo tables showing games from the ages (that is a bit labor intensive though) with a GM/instructor between them facilitating play.

4) Pretty much answered above.

Hope that helps. Apply salt as needed.

One question I would ask is how you plan on making it sustainable? I can't imagine there would be a large amount of repeated visits (or too large a gap between visits), and it is a niche hobby. You'll need something up your sleeve, Whw has a dedicated team of over 10 full time employees to keep the exhibits and events fresh, which is a substantial overhead.

Plus a Bar. Everyone loves a Bar.

 JamesY wrote:
One question I would ask is how you plan on making it sustainable? I can't imagine there would be a large amount of repeated visits (or too large a gap between visits), and it is a niche hobby. You'll need something up your sleeve, Whw has a dedicated team of over 10 full time employees to keep the exhibits and events fresh, which is a substantial overhead.

As a non-profit you have very different requirements and potential streams of revenue than a typical Business model. Much of the funding would probably come from Grants and the like, followed by donations, then concession/giftshop, followed by admissions last.

It would be a fun exercise to actual build the Business Plan for such a venture.

Seems only logical to have a "gift shop" doubling as a miniature gaming store. That would easily make it sustainable, because then it would operate like any other game store, just with added revenue/costs from the displays. Preferably stocking the less mainstream games to make it worth popping in, to see if you can find that hard-to-get game or miniature.

As a non-profit, you can also have fundraisers, corporate donors, and personal contributions. It would actually be much more sustainable than your average gaming store, in all probability.

 Easy E wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
One question I would ask is how you plan on making it sustainable? I can't imagine there would be a large amount of repeated visits (or too large a gap between visits), and it is a niche hobby. You'll need something up your sleeve, Whw has a dedicated team of over 10 full time employees to keep the exhibits and events fresh, which is a substantial overhead.

As a non-profit you have very different requirements and potential streams of revenue than a typical Business model. Much of the funding would probably come from Grants and the like, followed by donations, then concession/giftshop, followed by admissions last.

It would be a fun exercise to actual build the Business Plan for such a venture.

I suspect that there would be any number of companies associated with the industry who would be more than willing to offer support in exchange for product visibility.

And yes, a bar would potentially be a big money spinner, as would running events if done well.

 JamesY wrote:
One question I would ask is how you plan on making it sustainable? I can't imagine there would be a large amount of repeated visits (or too large a gap between visits), and it is a niche hobby. You'll need something up your sleeve, Whw has a dedicated team of over 10 full time employees to keep the exhibits and events fresh, which is a substantial overhead.

As said, there's a large amount of heritage sector expertise in the team, and we have a number of idea between us. As said in the OP though, the intent is to keep any preconceptions bias free for the purposes of this thread (not to mention that it's still early days), so I'm afraid you'll have to wait on that score! Suffice to say though, there are several potential revenue streams which can likely be tapped. To give a single (unspecific) example, one popular wargaming company donated over £40,000 recently for a side -project at one acquaintance's institution.

We shall see in good time however, we're all working/busy people, and this is likely to be a slow boiling project over the next two to three years.

 Easy E wrote:

It would be a fun exercise to actual build the Business Plan for such a venture.

You're weird

The exhibits would be a problem, just what would be worthy of display and on what criteria would they be chosen? It's only been in the last 30 years or so that miniatures really expanded away from historicals and the older models were (from what I have seen) poor quality, essentially toys, so there is a natural temptation to concentrate on the 'games Workshop' era although that would just make this venture a smaller version of Warhammer World.

Personally I would like to see the evolution of the wargame from their origins as a military planning/training tool to the manchild's power fantasy that they have become, some kind of display on miniature design and manufacture over time as well as some well painted toy soldiers from the more recent past.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

The exhibits would be a problem, just what would be worthy of display and on what criteria would they be chosen? It's only been in the last 30 years or so that miniatures really expanded away from historicals and the older models were (from what I have seen) poor quality, essentially toys, so there is a natural temptation to concentrate on the 'games Workshop' era although that would just make this venture a smaller version of Warhammer World..

I disagree. While the newer stuff may be flashier and (arguably) 'better', for those interested in the history or nostalgia of the hobby, those older miniatures are still a big draw. I've never been into historical gaming, but I love old-school toy soldiers.

It's about making a spectacle, IMO. Individually, those 90-year-old lead soldiers found in someone's basement might be a little lacklustre. 40,000* of them nicely painted and arrayed on a well-done diorama board are going to be impressive regardless of your particular gaming bent.


*Slight exaggeration. Maybe.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Personally I would like to see the evolution of the wargame from their origins as a military planning/training tool to the manchild's power fantasy that they have become, some kind of display on miniature design and manufacture over time as well as some well painted toy soldiers from the more recent past.

All of this I agree with, though.


The mention of manufacturing makes me think you also need something akin to those ubiquitous penny-rolling machines... put in a coin, press your own miniature, sort of thing.


And then have a GW-specific version, where you put in your entire savings and in return the machine kicks you in the fork and steals your lunch.

 insaniak wrote:

I disagree. While the newer stuff may be flashier and (arguably) 'better', for those interested in the history or nostalgia of the hobby, those older miniatures are still a big draw. I've never been into historical gaming, but I love old-school toy soldiers.

They certainly shouldn't be ignored although there would be a potential issue with a lack of variety.

It should encourage gamers to leave their models to the museum in their wills, so that when they pass away, decades of personal efforts go somewhere where they might be enjoyed (and make excellent rotating displays) rather than ebayed or junked because nobody knows what the value of dad's old toys is.

Likewise, it should encourage people to donate abandoned/jetissoned projects, ones that might take up too much space in their houses and sheds, but would look awesome in the archives of a museum.

Donations may get a bit overwhelming, and having a disclaimer to refuse a carload of out-dated clipped parts might save time later. Something like "All relevant donations are welcomed, but we reserve the right to reject. A list of charity shops is available on request". Too much new stuff might seem nice, but takes time to sort through.

-What sort of exhibits would you expect to see in a museum dedicated to miniature wargaming?
---A game-in-progress always looks good. Have all related tools (whippy sticks, piles of dice, movement templates) off to the side.
-Do you believe that the focus of any sort of museum collection should be weighted towards more contemporary wargaming (to reflect its explosion over the last thirty years), or be split evenly between that and older games?
---Decide which way around you want to display to be seen, and build towards that, either new-going-to-old, or the other way around. Maybe, have the older stuff on the way in, and larger displays of more recent exhibits as the ranges expand.
-Do you think that exhibits/events should be focused upon miniature wargaming purely as a historical concern, or would you prefer a more interactive approach? (so painting/sculpting classes, classic games laid out where they can be handled and played, etc)
---History is all well and good, but having an interactive display will keep their attention. It might mean more re-visits, too.
-What sort of exhibits, events, or facilities would attract you to visiting this kind of institution?
---Having display cases of models looks nice, but well laid-out tables to demonstrate the way games are played makes it more than just a walk-through museum.
There needs to be a shop to sell current stuff though, with pointers along the way referring to them where relevant.

Throw in a few nearly-exhibits, like Action Man, Lego and the bucket of green army men. It'll give the non-wargamers something to relate to.

Thing is if you've got space to store it, why not take it to deal with on a quiet day? Worst case you auction it off for funds later.
You might find something that's trash now but gold in 20 years.

I'd ignore modern GW; they've got a museum you'll never be able to compete with and everyone visiting will know about it all already. Focus on the older stuff and less usual.

Maybe have a guest exhibit space which you open up to smaller companies on a rotation basis, and let them provide content and demo games (whee applicable).

Maybe have a section on pop culture tie ins - board/mini's games based on films, tv etc. That might introduce a lot of casual players to new stuff.