Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Actually look into Waaaaagh: Ghazghkull he is an Ork that is setting the Imperium on fire from one end to the other, especially on Armageddon.

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: Ghazghkull has defeated the Imperium once, at Golgotha. No Space Marines were present there either, if I recall, so it shows the battle was not considered very important.

Ghazghkull was defeated at both Piscina and Armageddon and has only ever defeated the Imperium while defending Golgotha. That is it. Ghazghkull's biggest accomplishments are his consistent failure to defeat the Imperium in important conflicts. He's not setting anything, other than Octarius, on fire.

tell that too the people on Armageddon, his protracted war there has cost the Imperium dearly with them having to reroute forces from other fronts to deal with it, and they have yet to deal with it, meanwhile Ghazghkull has laid waste to several nearby planets and even helped Orks in other areas of the galaxies against other alien life forms like Tyranids and he is just getting started.

also you realize the Armageddon war is still going ? (the third war)

 Anemone wrote:
The Imperium won the 2nd war. Please name these other victories Ghazghkull has had, if he's so successful against the Imperium as you are implying then I am sure you have many examples of his great victories against the Imperium. I can't wait to hear them.

Yes, the third war is ongoing, so what's your point? He still hasn't won a single meaningful victory. Ghazghkull's a loser, just like Abaddon and every other 'threat' to the Imperium.

I would also love to hear more about these costs, what worlds have been lost due to the cost of Armageddon? What battles has the Imperium lost due to the cost of Armageddon? Because a cost isn't a cost if it isn't actually costing you anything (naturally).

well for starters you act like the Imperium has won the war on Armageddon, they have not, they have lost hive cites and ports to the Orks and are still fighting the war with no end in sight, so in essence the Imperium is weak and a loser according to you.

also with all local forces being drawn to Armageddon by the Imperium it has left many local planets weak and easy pickings for Ghazghkull which he has taken them.

then we have the Octarian war which Ghazghkull managed to wipe out Hive Fleet Leviathan (well a large chunk of it that was drawn to the rich biomass there, but they will return), he also killed a Mawloc single handedly after being swallowed by it. then there was the Tau base on Fang's world.

then we have the Galactic Green wave which basically scared all warp-sensitive souls senseless

what it comes down to is no I repeat no group ever wins, they may win battles, but the war never ends, kill Orks they return, kill Tyranids, they return smarter, kill Humans they return, kill Eldar and they suffer, the Imperium may be strong but they are weak just like the other races.

 Anemone wrote:
You still aren't providing me any examples. Name a single battle in which Ghazghkull beats the Imperium other than Golgotha.

If he does it so much why not simply give me an example? I mean the examples you've given are against the Tyranid and Tau, what about examples against the Imperium?

Also of course the Imperium isn't weak; they beat Horus, beat the Beast, destroyed four Craftworlds, wiped out the World Engine, destroyed Hive Fleet Behemoth, undone the machinations of Eldrad, destroyed the Ork Empire of Ullanor and more besides. Obviously the Imperium isn't weak.

Ghazghkull hasn't done anything remotely close to any of that. Ghazghkull can't conquer a single planet from the Imperium. Literally.

because the fluff doesn't mention planet names, just that he conquered nearby planets, as it goes the Imperium has already written off Armageddon as lost and is only fighting to contain the Orks there since if the Imperium cannot then the Orks could threaten Terra itself (that is from the Fluff),, right now Ghazghkull is running 2 succesful operations one against the Imperium and the other against Hive Fleet Leviathan.

As to Armageddon he has drawn over 150 companies of Space Marines, over 220 Regiments of Imperial guard, 10 companies of sisters, several Adeptus Mechanicus Legio's, that is a pretty big portion of the Imperium tied up on one planet fighting someone you call weak.

 Anemone wrote:
'Nameless planets' is useless. How do we know they have any significance or there were even battles? That just sounds like they were completely unimportant.

The Imperium hasn't 'written off' Armageddon. Where did you get that idea? Also Ghazghkull isn't running two 'successful operations' he's running two stalemates with no indication he's more likely to win than his opponent.

Also, so those numbers, great, now tell me what battles have been lost or worlds conquered due to those forces being sent to Armageddon? Since if those forces being sent to Armageddon has had no appreciable effect on the Imperium's borders or battles, then that proves nothing.

WAAAGH! Ghazghkull page 21 pretty much last paragraph above last sentence.

The Imperium had always dreaded the unification of so many Ork Tribes, and now its worst fears were coming true. Already the wisest of the Imperial leaders faced the grim realization that it was likely that the industry of Armageddon would soon be ruined beyond repair. The war was now less about saving Armageddon and more about preserving its sub-sector and. most sobering of all, preventing the ever-swelling tide of Orks from growing larger, If the great green menace could not be contained upon Armageddon, then it would sweep outwards and threaten the heart of the Imperium itself - Holy Terra.

 Anemone wrote:
Stuff that 'could' happen. None of this has happened. This doesn't change that Ghazghkull has never won a serious engagement against the Imperium. Seriously I don't see how you're providing any evidence against that claim of mine. This is an unrelated note about 'hypothetical future events' which have not occurred.

oh it will happen its a foregone conclusion, right now Ghazghkull is just toying with the Imperium, he wants the endless waaagh that never ends why do you think he let Yarrick go ?

right now the game is building up to a universal war that will forever change the Imperium that survives, if any?

 Anemone wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge: No, it isn't, beating named characters (like the Beast was beaten, like Huron was beaten, like Eldrad was beaten, like Ghazghkull was beaten, like the Swarmlord was beaten) and named factions (like Ghazghkull's Waaagh!!! was beaten, like the Red Waaagh!!! was beaten, like Ulthwe was beaten, like Alaitoc was beaten, like the Sautehk Dynasty was beaten, like Behemoth and Kraken were beaten, like Biel-Tan was beaten) those are victories in a story.

You're using a bland and meaningless phrase 'costs and sacrifice' to replace the fact that the Imperium never loses major wars or suffers major consequences whilst the other factions do.

Ghazghkull has beaten the Imperium once, that's it, and both his major attacks on the Imperium he has lost.

Also Damocles was described by canon itself as completely negligible to the Imperium. If you think the Tau wining that battle equates to the Imperium's records of victory against all other factions in the setting then I don't know what to say.

and yet most of those entities you said were beaten are still around and still causing issues, already Hive Fleet Kraken is showing up in the Davros sector and Ghazghkull has the Imperium shaking in its boots and shall I continue? the Imperium may have won some battles but they are far from winning the wars.

 Anemone wrote:

@Asterios: What Wars did they lose? Last I checked they won the 1st and 2nd Tyrannic War, the 1st and 2nd Wars for Armageddon, the Horus Heresy, the War of the Beast, seriously what are these enormous wars they're losing?

did the Imperium wipe out all the Tyranids or eradicate them or even stop them in the first and second wars? no, so they didn't win those wars, they won some battles but that is it, the war rages on, di they stop Ghazghkull during the first or second war for Armageddon? no he still lives and he is still bringing the war to them and pretty much kicking butt on Armageddon, what you classify as winning wars is not winning wars, just battles, so yes the Imperium is losing the war in general while winning some battles here and there.

furthermore in any war against the Orks humans can never win, they may win battles but the Orks will return and return often.

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios; So let me just make sure I understand this correctly; if you were, for example, in charge of Lexicanum, you would then list not a single war ever?

Because you realize the 1st Tyrannic and 2nd Tyrannic War are listed there, and listed as Imperium victories? Same with 1st and 2nd Armageddon, with Sanctus, with Cryptus, with Damnos, with Horus Heresy, with Beast Waaagh!!!

So you're saying Lexicanum is wrong to list these as wars which the Imperium won?

How is Ghazghkull kicking Imperial Butt? Other than Golgotha where has he beaten the Imperium? If you're going to say he is kicking Imperial butt please provide me with a canonical example of him doing so.

As for 'humans can never win' wasn't that literally what Ullanor and the Beast Waaagh!!! were? Reducing the Orks to a non-threat level? In the Wolf of Ash and Fire doesn't the Emperor explicitly state this?

anything can be said, but you ignore the large patches of Ork occupied space that used to belong to the humans and other species, lets see what victories have the Imperium had on Armageddon in the third war? how many has Ghazghkull had? he seems to be running thru Hive Cites and Ports pretty fast to the point not much is left, and what has the Imperium done?

As to the Tyranids, so when Germany went tearing thru Russia Germany won the war according to you? the war is not won while forces still fight, and the Tyranid forces from the earlier forays into our universe still exist and are still fighting, not too mention all the imperial worlds the Tyranids stripped bare.

the reason you think the Imperium is the winner is because there is very little if any fluff on worlds they lost. and they have lost many worlds.

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: So the Emperor was wrong? I doubt that very much.

Additionally you asked for Imperium victories on Armageddon: The battle of Helsreach Hive, the battle of Gate IX not to mention a score of novels about victories by Space Marines and Imperial Guard. Can you mention some of Ghazghkull's victories on Armageddon?

Okay, so, according to you Lexicanum is wrong to list there being a 1st and 2nd Tyrannic War won by the Imperium?

And, yes, of course the lack of fluff affects it. This is a story, if you can't provide the evidence, I can't know it happened. So if the story doesn't actually say or tell me many Imperial armies are losing important fights then I can't believe that.

The orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

and yet you call that a victory and what is Gate IX? it is not in the game books?

also you have to remember the fluff focuses on Imperium victories since they have to make the good guys look like they are winning, that is why major victories for other then human species are lacking.

 Anemone wrote:
@Lord Damocles: The IA book calls it a stalemate, explicitly. Lexicanum calls it a stalemate, explicitly. Sorry but I'm going to trust those sources more.

@Lusall: No what they lost doesn't make the victories hollow, how do you estimate that? If what they lost made the victories hollow then that would have to actually mean a pyrrhic victory, meaning they'd have to lose something of worth which concretely and materially impacted the survival of the hegemon.

Why can't the Imperium lose? Why not let the Space Wolves just lose on Sanctus Reach and have the Orks Conquer it? What's going to cause the collapse of the Imperium there? Why not have Eldrad defeat a named Space Marine, what's going to cause the collapse of the Imperium there?

You can 'not agree' but it doesn't change that the Imperium wins every major war and that, after collating the battles, the Imperium has more victories than all other factions combined.

Seriously I don't understand how you dispute the Imperium virtually always winning when, quite literally if you just scroll down a list of wars and battles, virtually all of them are described as an Imperial Victory.

@Asterios: But you just admitted now that their aren't many victories for non-human factions? So what are we discussing?

so you are saying all those planets that the imperium lost to the Tyranids, the Tau and the Orks and so on are victories for the Imperium?

and if you are going to quote me quote it right, I did not say there are not many victories for non-human factions, only that they are not recorded, but they do exist.

furthermore victory in war is when you gained, not lost, the Imperium has been losing much, so they are not victorious.

 Anemone wrote:
@Robin5t: Didn't Malcador teleport a planet? Also Magnus is stated to be stronger than him so...

Also I don't think the Prime of Prime's personally did that, that was the gestalt Psychic of the whole Beast Waaagh!!! I think.

The strongest Psykers, without a doubt, are the Emperor, the Primarchs and then Malcador. That's kind of a fact. The Eldar aren't anywhere near the top.

@Asterios: If they aren't recorded then they don't count since this is a narrative story. Give me evidence of these great and crippling defeats the Imperium has suffered if you're going to insist they're real.

go read the Codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull its all detailed in there, especially all the losses the Imperium has suffered on Armageddon and how its now just a war for survival since they have already lost most of the planet to the Orks, so tell me if the Imperium are the winners, what did they gain? so far only see them losing planets and not gaining many. at best maybe recovering planets they lost but even then not all of them, heck the tau have taken a bunch of Imperial planets into their collective that the Imperium has yet to get back.

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterios: Just name a battle, please! If you're going to tell me the Imperium is losing to Gazghkull, just name a battle they lose for me so I can go read up on it and check.

I gave you a whole list of them:

The Orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

so tell me how is the imperium winning on Armageddon when they have lost most of the planet to the Orks ?

and all of that is in the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull which is obvious you have never read since if you did you would realize you are fighting a losing battle, considering the whole codex paints a very bleak picture for the Imperium not on just that planet but on the whole Imperium itself.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterios: Just name a battle, please! If you're going to tell me the Imperium is losing to Gazghkull, just name a battle they lose for me so I can go read up on it and check.

I gave you a whole list of them:

The Orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

so tell me how is the imperium winning on Armageddon when they have lost most of the planet to the Orks ?

and all of that is in the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull which is obvious you have never read since if you did you would realize you are fighting a losing battle, considering the whole codex paints a very bleak picture for the Imperium not on just that planet but on the whole Imperium itself.

And so what if the Imperium loses Armageddon? It has a million worlds more and infinite manpower to defend them with. If the Imperium loses Armageddon, what would prevent it from launching a counterattack or just making a stand at the next planet? And that is only if they actually do lose Armageddon. We all know that won't happen, but that instead the heroic Space Marines will come in to save the day (unless GW has a new toy they want to sell. Then that will come in to save the day). That is how it always goes in 40k. A very dark and bleak outcome is threatened, but then avoided at the last moment. In 40k, the Orks will never sack Holy Terra and rampage through the Imperial Palace.

there are well over 100 companies on Armageddon now and they are not stopping it, the problem is the Imperium has dedicated so much man power to Armageddon juust to slow down Ghazghkull's armies that they are losing that way, the Imperium has many more enemies out there and for them to attribute so much power to one planet is not a smart move, except to slow down the Orks some.

and you think GW won't have the Orks attack Holy Terra? think of all the stuff they can sell if they do? look what happened to WHFB ? have you read the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull? cause thats how the book makes it look like the direction GW is going with an Imperium wide WAAAGH! even hitting Holy Terra.

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: When was Hive Infernus conquered? Also do you have any names of battles of importance in the Ash Wastes?

Also what fluff about Armageddon are you reading? All Fluff I've seen describes it as a complete stalemate with neither side gaining an advantage? Where are you coming with this 'The Orks are winning everything on Armageddon'?

Additionally I have read the Ghazghkull supplement. I just read it now again to see if what you're talking about is true, and found that nowhere within it does Ghazghkull defeat the Imperium even once in an engagement. It doesn't even mention his one victory Golgotha. It mentions the 2nd Armageddon War, which he loses, it mentions Piscina, which he loses and then it mentions the 3rd Armageddon War, which it does not say he is going to win, but calls a stalemate. So please direct me to the named battles of importance Ghazghkull wins over the Imperium if they are as numerous as you seem to be implying.

Also I find the notion of Orks ever managing to attack Terra in the current fluff highly doubtful. But I'm not going to get involved in that.

I call Shenanigans, go read page 21 of the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull codex it will answer your questions. as to the ash wastes that is on page 20 and no where does it say the battle on armageddon is a stalemate, tell me what page that is on? also it is not a paper type or soft cover type supplement it is a codex hard cover book.

also as a sideline factoid the inside back cover of the Codex Armageddon has a map showing some of the battles and such.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterios: Just name a battle, please! If you're going to tell me the Imperium is losing to Gazghkull, just name a battle they lose for me so I can go read up on it and check.

I gave you a whole list of them:

The Orks overran half of Helsreach Hive so would not call that a victory for the Imperium since they lost half their hive, the Imperium lost Hive Infernus, Hive Acheron, Hive Tempestora. Hive Hades was blasted apart, the Ash wastes where entire regiments of Imperial Guard were killed and burned, not too mention the damage done to Ghattana bay which cut off much of the water to Armageddon Prime. Hives Volcanus and Infernus are besieged

so tell me how is the imperium winning on Armageddon when they have lost most of the planet to the Orks ?

and all of that is in the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull which is obvious you have never read since if you did you would realize you are fighting a losing battle, considering the whole codex paints a very bleak picture for the Imperium not on just that planet but on the whole Imperium itself.

And so what if the Imperium loses Armageddon? It has a million worlds more and infinite manpower to defend them with. If the Imperium loses Armageddon, what would prevent it from launching a counterattack or just making a stand at the next planet? And that is only if they actually do lose Armageddon. We all know that won't happen, but that instead the heroic Space Marines will come in to save the day (unless GW has a new toy they want to sell. Then that will come in to save the day). That is how it always goes in 40k. A very dark and bleak outcome is threatened, but then avoided at the last moment. In 40k, the Orks will never sack Holy Terra and rampage through the Imperial Palace.

there are well over 100 companies on Armageddon now and they are not stopping it, the problem is the Imperium has dedicated so much man power to Armageddon juust to slow down Ghazghkull's armies that they are losing that way, the Imperium has many more enemies out there and for them to attribute so much power to one planet is not a smart move, except to slow down the Orks some.

and you think GW won't have the Orks attack Holy Terra? think of all the stuff they can sell if they do? look what happened to WHFB ? have you read the codex WAAAGH! Ghazghkull? cause thats how the book makes it look like the direction GW is going with an Imperium wide WAAAGH! even hitting Holy Terra.

That is what GW has been going with for many many years now. But it never happens. The sense of impending doom has always been there, it is a big part of 40k fluff. But so far it has always been averted at the last moment in every story. In all of the years of 40k, the Imperium has never yet suffered a major, permanent and irrecoverable loss. In Fantasy, the Empire lost entire provinces and had all of its major cities sacked and destroyed at least once, the Elves had a significant part of their kingdom swallowed up by the sea and were stuck in a permanent civil war and the Dwarves were pushed from their once huge empire to just a few surviving holds. In 40k, no faction ever suffered a loss quite like that.

Also, a 100 companies is about 25,000 men. Hardly a shocking number. World War 2 was a far larger conflict than the Third War for Armageddon.

you forgot the over 200 regiments of IG too and all the other forces the Imperium has sent, and as the book states that is old information. and yes the impending doom has always been there but it increases and increases with more information being shown like with the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull codex it added a whole lot of information not known before and a lot that is not even in the wikia.

also a 100 companies of SM's is about 10,000 men.

also when it comes to Psychic energy I don't think the WAAAGH! psychic energy should be ignored from the green tide to Ghazghkull's ability to control actions a galaxy away or his head butting a warp portal close should be ignored.

Rocket Scientist wrote:
@Bobthehero: Other than the really uncalled for personal attack, Omdomt really get what you're saying.

Did I say the Imperium has 'no defeats'?

No, just no major ones. It doesn't lose the gothic war or Tyranid wars or armageddons, or heresy or beast or any of the major wars. It also doesn't lose anywhere near as often as the other armies, sorry but that's what I've come across while reading through the lexicanum and Black Library.

problem is that is outdated source material, the game universe is constantly changing, as to major defeats the Empire has lost whole systems to the Tau. same with them losing whole systems to the Orks and the Tyranids or even the Necrons, but GW doesn't do fluff on total defeats cause its not sellable.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Rocket Scientist wrote:
Also why do a bench of random shamans make someone powerful enough to frighten the Chaos Gods? How does that work at all? If it was that easy why not do it all the time.

Because it's the fabrication of a petty earth technobarbarian warlord to deify himself as the God of all mankind. The Imperial Cult is just that, a cult.

Not to step on any toes if anyone's religious, but it's similar to stating that an ordinary human resistance-movement leader in antiquity could actually walk on water, turn water into wine and resurrect himself from the dead.

All evidence I can see points to that being a fabrication of his followers generations down the line.

Any later 'miracles' are simply due to the nature of belief in the 40k universe, manifesting the god-emperor of mankind as a being in the warp, born from the fervent belief of billions upon billions of deluded souls.

Makes perfect sense, until the writers at BL discovered the vast seam of money that lay untapped in the Horus Heresy novels and started adding ridiculous things like solid background information and other such unwarranted and unhelpful things into my grimdark science-fantasy setting

Was much better when events like that were shrouded in mystery, letting people draw their own conclusions that didn't leave the door open for so many contradictory statements to be intended as truth.

Not get off my lawn!

Actually the Emperor and Jesus never said they were God (or the son of God) it was their followers after that did that is what you are saying yes? (but in more layman terms )

 Anemone wrote:

@Asterios: I have the online copy on my Ibooks, don't know it if makes much difference *shrug* also page 21 lists only two Ork victories; Tempestora and Hades. It calls Ghattana Bay an Ork defeat, just like the original report did, the battle at the Gate of IX.

As for where it says the battle of Armageddon is a stalemate; the Astra Militarum Codex, virtually every Warhammer site I could find. Where does it say Ghazghkull is winning?

I mean, please, are you saying Ghazghkull is winning Armageddon and that all the Warhammer Wiki's, Lexicanum and 1d4chan are wrong to list it as a Stalemate?

@Bobthehero: Of course you can say its a victory for the Imperium.

Does the fact that Nazi Germany occupied great swathes of territory in Russia, wiped out and captured numerous army groups, settlements and resources mean that Russia didn't win the war? Of course not.

Suffering losses always happens in a war. If the only way to win a war is to not lose anything then no-one will ever win the war. What determines the victor of the war is the ultimate military victor of the warzone. So in the 1st Tyrannic War Behemoth was a coherent invading force which was destroyed by the Imperium, hence the Imperium are the victors there, as they were in the 2nd Tyrannic War as well.

really you want to go there? ok say a force of Parisians invade South Africa, they have taken over several cities and land, are you going to say South Africa is winning because they stopped the Parisians at a couple points? seriously? you would have to be seriously deluded to think the Imperium is winning on Armageddon, they are losing, and they are losing land fast, just like the Imperium is losing planets, it may not be as noticeable as if they only had 10 planets and lost one, but they are losing planets and not gaining any so it is not a stalemate or a victory by any stretch of the imagination, all they have had is winning battles in the great war that is 40K. but meanwhile they are losing the war for survival.

now as to your Germany and Russia explanation, did Germany lose the land they took from Russia? did Russia gain even more land? that defines victories, a victory is when you gain more then you lose, has the Imperium gained more then it lost? no and that is why they are not winning, they are surviving and that is it, they may win a battle here and there but they are losing the war.

 Anemone wrote:


@Asterios: Ah...you'd have to describe your example in way more detail for me to answer; is the fight ongoing? Were the Parisians repulsed eventually? Is there an armistice? I can't give an answer to that question at all based on the limited info you've given me.

Also I don't recall ever saying the Imperium is winning on Armageddon. I said what the canon is; its a stalemate, neither side are winning. That's all it is. I don't know why we're so sucked up in discussing the 3rd Armageddon War. Its a stalemate, it has been a stalemate in the fluff for a long time, why are we still discussing this?

Please provide me with a list of these planets you're saying the Imperium is losing.

"Has the Imperium gained more than it has lost" In what sense? For example the latest book of the Beast Arises series actually does state the Imperium gains more than it loses after the Beast Waaagh!!! so please be specific. Which Imperium victory are you specifically trying to dispute here?

and yet the Imperium is losing land and cities and only the Imperium would call it a victory or a stalemate at best, only reason it is at a stalemate as you call it on your outdated information is because of the fire season being on the planet, but since then the war has continued with Ghazgghkull directing the actions from the other end of the galaxy with his psychic ability given to him by Mork and Gork.

Planets the Imperium has lost heres a few:

Arcetri Forge World lost to Hive Fleet Harbinger
Arkhona planet population destroyed by unknown mystical forces
Assyri planet destroyed by Eldar
Auxesia planet ravaged by Iron Warriors
Auxilion population devoured by the Dark Eldar Carnival of Pain
Barbarus Prime conquered by Tyranids
Barnassus forge world destroyed by Chaos
Bekrin shrine world destroyed by Hive Fleet Dagon
Berien VI all life eradicated by unknown force
Beta Fortanis destroyed by those pesky Tyranids
Brendine II destroyed by the forces of a Slaanash worshipper

and there are many more planets to list, tell me how many planets has the Empire taken? and what are their names and who did they take them from?

I gave you proof now you give proof or forever be known as wrong.

by the way if you are getting any of your information from the Novels you should stop now because they are not accurate I have already discovered discrepancies in the novels dealing with the Dark Angels that conflict with each other.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Lord Damocles: The IA book calls it a stalemate, explicitly.

Are you basing that on page 60?

 Anemone wrote:
@Lord Damocles: Apologies, I must have missed your post last time in the confusion. Yes, pg 60, correct.

You realise that the statement of 'untenable stalemate' on pg.60 is dated 995.M41 - four years before the Orphean Decree is issued 0266999.M41 (pg.59); which states that:

'By the Act of Discorporation shall the Sector Orpheus of the Segmentum Tempestus be no more, its rights, tithes and titles annulled, and its history be sealed and unremembered, save for those whose duty it is to bear the burden of truth and the sorrow of watchfulness.

Of the Forces Imperial currently contesting its remaining domains of the aforesaid sector, shall the gift of martyrdom be given with the Emperor's blessing...

By this decree shall a cordon be enforced between the former sector known as Orpheus, whose stars be forbidden on pain of death, and the sector of Eurydice...

That the forces of the Minotaurs Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes and the remaining warships of the Battlefleet Orpheus... enforce the purgation and Exterminatus of the worlds listed herein, scouring them of life...

That the Forge World of Myre shall be abandoned and scoured...'

?

so in other words the Imperium in its infinite wisdom said if they can't have the planets no one will, and yet Anemone calls that a victory/stalemate for the Imperium ?

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: Okay, cool, so you agree we can settle this then by drawing on the data? Great.

-In the Achilus Crusade over sixty-systems, not just planets, but SYSTEMS, have already been claimed by the Imperium.
-Took the world of Dread Mandragora
-Then we have the Angevin Crusade which we are told conquered over 200 worlds
-A Blood Angel force seizes the arceotech world of Hell's Hollow from Chaos
-Iron Hands take Shemnoch from the Necron
-The Bellrath Crusade conquered the entire Laanath Rifts
-Then we have the Ultramarines taking Corinth and Damnos
-We have the Invaders Chapter destroying all of Craftworld Idharae
-Nimbosa was recently taken from the Tau by the Black Templars
-Then we have the Lok'kroll xenocide when their worlds get conquered
-Can't forget they captured Ullanor from the Orks at the end of the Beast Waaagh!!!
-Then some Space Marines claim the Verdeworlds from the Eldar
-Then the Blood Angels defeated the Night Lords, Death Guard and Word Bearers to claim the entire star-system of Blackstar.
-Then the Blood Angels also claim the twelve worlds of Blackfang from the Orks and, we're told, they're so successful they claim an additional two nearby planetary systems as well.
-
-

I'm gonna stop there, for now. This is just my first page so say if you need more.

@Lord Damocles: It has been a while since I read it, I agree, that does actually make it seem more to me like the Necron won. Not 100% sure but I'm happy to concede it since it doesn't really change anything, its still a drop in a bucket.

ok lets finish this then shall we:

-Achilus Crusade is an ongoing crusade so according to you that would be a stalemate or a loss for the Imperium since they have not won the war yet.
-Dread Mandragora was worlds they "reclaimed" hence they lost them in the first place, so once again not a victory for them
-Angevin Crusade you do realize that faltered mainly due to a major warp storm and that the planets they did take are under attack by Orks and Xeno's raiders? so once again not a win bu your standards. just because the Imperium "claimed" them does not make them the Imperiums. I could lay claim to the whole of the US it does not make it mine though.
-Hell's Hollow also belonged to the Imperium before hand so just a reclamation operation
-Shemnoch unfortunately there is Canon conflict with this with the 7th. edition rulebook stating that the battle took place on Sazalor
-Bellrath Crusade seems legitimate against a Xenos force it shall be allowed but still no planet names ?
-Corinth former Ork world will be allowed but Damnos belonged to the Imperium till it was discovered to be on a Necron Tomb World. so will not be allowed.
-Craftworld Idharae to which CraftWorld Alaitoc destroyued the Space Marines homeworld so I will call that a tie.
-Nimbosa once again a planet lost by the Imperium and was only reclaimed.
-Lok'kroll xenocide yeah mostly destroyed by Exterminatus from Orbit, not a victory but a slaughter.
-Ullanor and yet Ghazghkull is in the process of taking it back, since its new name now is Armageddon after being teleported by the Fabricator. (oopsie, you didn't read that book did you?)
-Verdeworlds information on this is scant, no mention if the settlers moved to an imperial world or what world? or if the Imperium even settled them
-Blackstar once again a reclamation of Imperial planets
-Blackfang will give you that.

so after going thru your whole list I have reduced it greatly because reclaiming land is not new land.

also to let you know how wrong the Lexicanum is, it says the Imperium won the third war on Armageddon even though the fighting still continues, yet you use that as Fluff to back you up? also the same Lexicanum also states the war continues too:

Where it says the war is over with an Imperium victory:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Armageddon

Third War for Armageddon
Main article: Third War for Armageddon
The Third War for Armageddon occurred fifty years after the Second War. Ghazghkull Thraka returned, leading a second Waaagh! smashing into Armageddon. Commissar Yarrick and many of the heroes who fought for the planet before were called into battle again.
Aftermath
Although the 3rd Armageddon War is over (with the Imperium winning a narrow victory), fighting still continues on the planet. Ghazghkull has left the planet and continues to plague neighboring Imperial worlds. He is being pursued by Yarrick with a full Black Templars crusade at his back. The Orks have come to regard Armageddon as a kind of Valhalla, where they can always come to find a good fight, and the Imperium must still send more troops to battle to keep the planet in Imperial hands while Ork reinforcements continue to flood in.[3]

and where it says the war continues:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Third_War_for_Armageddon

The War Continues

Becoming bored by the growing stalemate, Ghazghkull quickly ran out of patience. He left the conquest of Armageddon to his generals and went in search of something more entertaining. When word of this reached Yarrick he too left Armageddon with a strike force of Black Templars, determined to hunt down Ghazghkull and end things between them once and for all.[4b] Yarrick and the Black Templars were able to corner Ghazghkull at the Battle of Haunted Gulf, but the Warboss was able to elude his foes yet again.
However there are still countless Orks infesting Armageddon and the war rages to this day. For the Orks, the war has become known as the "Big Scrap"[4b] (also other name - "Ragnarork")[9] and more Orks arrive to the system with each day as word spreads.[4b] The cost of the war is measured in human lives, and the death toll spirals towards the billions. The Imperials know one thing, however: whatever the cost, Armageddon must not fall.[2c]

so even on the same Lexicanum there is conflict on what is up, and yet you use that is irrefutable proof?

 Anemone wrote:
@Asterios: You simply wanted examples of planets taken, you said; Planets the Imperium has lost.

I gave you a list of planets the Imperium has claimed.

Thus:
-The Achilus Campaign does still count, since it is an example of planets claimed by the Imperium, many planets.
-Angevin Crusade makes clear the worlds were conquered by the Imperium, over 200 (more than all your examples combined by far) so I see no grounds to dismiss it
-Also your Eldar example is mistaken; Idharae was destroyed completely, it no longer exists, whereas the Invaders Chapter does still exist and operate, so it is not an equivocal exchange at all.
-Blackfang alone is still 12 planets and 2 additional star systems which, again, is already more than all your examples put together.

Additionally if you're going to rule out any planet if it at a point belonged to the Imperium then, by your logic, Armageddon cannot count as a victory for Ghazghkull because it used to belong to Orks. Your statement that only worlds never claimed by a said nation count is ridiculous, it would mean that any world which the Eldar used to be on they can never count as 'winning' simply because at a point they owned it. So I reject this provision out of hand and, as a result, all the examples still stand.

Regardless, as I said, Blackfang alone is more than all your examples put together, if you want I will get more though. As I said this was not an exhaustive list at all.

As for your comments regarding Armageddon and the Lexicanum; firstly it is definitely important to accept that nothing like an infallible source of information exists, and I totally agree that of course Lexicanum will have errors. But, at the same time, certain sources are far more reliable than others, and I'd definitely consider Lexicanum more reliable on average than a single poster online.

Also check the page of the actual 3rd Armageddon War, there you will see the War is simply listed as 'ongoing'.

EDIT: As an aside, yes I did read the Beheading, why do you ask? Personally I found the plot twist of Ullanor being Armageddon very disappointing. Then again I found the entire introduction of an Orkish homeworld disappointing.

EDIT 2: Apologies Robin5t I missed your comment. The divergence you're alluding to here, and where I think you and I differ, is that like Sgt_Smudge you claim that though the reflection provided by GW, so the actual data and events described, displayed and such are biased, that the setting behind that is not. I differ from that. If the Eldar are effective Psykers and gifted precognitive I will believe it when it is displayed in fluff as such.

yes but when you consider your list only had one craft world (and yet the Eldar still exist) is the only one that is a victory against a playable Xenos species and even then the winners lost their own worlds, I only listed a few examples there are still many more, I only listed planets beginning with the letters "A" and "B" still a whole alphabet to go, also Armageddon was not owned by Ghazghkull but other Orks so you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Iron_Captain wrote:
In all of the years of 40k, the Imperium has never yet suffered a major, permanent and irrecoverable loss. In Fantasy, the Empire lost entire provinces and had all of its major cities sacked and destroyed at least once, the Elves had a significant part of their kingdom swallowed up by the sea and were stuck in a permanent civil war and the Dwarves were pushed from their once huge empire to just a few surviving holds. In 40k, no faction ever suffered a loss quite like that.

You need to factor in the scale of things. 40k is so much bigger than fantasy. All of those things happen, every single day to every single faction in the 40kiverse. It's just spread out over a thousand million worlds.

Yes. And that should not make any difference. Losing a single city is a huge loss to the Empire of Fantasy, but the Imperium would not even notice it. Losing an entire planet or even a sector means very little to the Imperium. It has a million worlds and thousands of sectors. The losses suffered should scale with the scale of the setting, but they don't. That is a problem. The Empire lost an entire province to the Orcs and had its capital and several other important cities sacked and the emperor killed. In 40k terms, that should translate to Orks destroying about 1/12th of the Imperium without it recovering afterwards, and sacking Terra, with the High Lords all being killed. However, Orks have never had any big successes like that. Quite on the contrary, one of the supposedly largest and most terrifying Ork Waaaghs in history is consistently failing at taking even a single planet (Armageddon).
Those kind of defeats that factions in Fantasy suffered is never ever suffered by the Imperium, and that sucks. I want to read about how Ghazkull laid waste to Holy Terra, how he was banging on the doors of the Emperor's throne room with the combined might of the Custodes only being barely able to keep the door sealed shut before the Orks eventually grow bored and go seek another fight, leaving a destroyed Terra in their wake. Something like that. That would establish the Orks and Ghazkull as actual threats, rather than as saturday morning cartoon villains ready to be stomped in this week's episode of Space Marine awesomeness. Make their actions have actual consequences.

Deadnight wrote:
If we are talking historically, the imperium has had quite a few near death experiences, such as the heresy, thr black crusades, the tyrannic wars etc as well as massive conflicts and civil wars such as the Nova terra insuregnum, the reign of vandire, the fourth quadrant rebellion etc. As you say, nothing 'permanent' in the strictest sense, but being realistic, each of these defeats could take a thousand years to fully recover from. And as a comparison to fantasy, how isn't it the empire gets a get out of jail free card for something similar (I mean, it lose some entire provinces, has its major cities sacked etc) but always manages To come back - it was there, still standing right up to the end times. The imperium has taken similar blows - planets and entire sectors fallen to total war, lost, destroyed etc but never loses?

The Black Crusades were far from a near-death experience for the Imperium. Every single one of them failed to do significant, lasting damage to the Imperium. Meanwhile, all of Chaos' might, like the Orks, fails to conquer a single planet (Cadia). Such terrifying foes!
All of the others are civil wars, which only reinforces my point. The greatest threat to the Imperium is the Imperium itself. All other factions in 40k are no real threat, they never win any major victories and they only exist to show how awesome and powerful the Imperium is.

but that is a victory for the Imperium, the Orks have different objectives then taking planets, their victory is finding a never ending war, which they found on Armageddon which is a victory for the Orks.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Reclaiming worlds most definitely counts as victories. If the Imperium reclaims the world, that basically negates them losing one. So to say that only taking new worlds count is ridiculous. By that logic, the Necrons never ever win, because at best they reclaim a world that was theirs back when they ruled the galaxy.

never said the Necrons ever won now did I? the Tyranids always win though, even if stopped since they have gone further into the empire are never truly stopped and eat worlds on their way and the Imperium can never reclaim what they have lost to the Tyranids or want too. as to Orks if they can find their never ending war (like Armageddon) that is a victory for them in their books.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:


never said the Necrons ever won now did I? the Tyranids always win though, even if stopped since they have gone further into the empire are never truly stopped and eat worlds on their way and the Imperium can never reclaim what they have lost to the Tyranids or want too. as to Orks if they can find their never ending war (like Armageddon) that is a victory for them in their books.

What, so you seriously don't think the Necrons ever win?

no just saying I never brought up the Necrons, my knowledge of the Terminator Robot aliens is limited at best , now Orks I can go on for days same with Nids.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:


no just saying I never brought up the Necrons, my knowledge of the Terminator Robot aliens is limited at best , now Orks I can go on for days same with Nids.

Well, it's fairly simple. The Necrons once ruled pretty much the entire galaxy, but went into their deep sleep in the Tomb Worlds, and now have woken up to find the living having conquered it all. If you're going to say that the Imperium retaking a world that was once theirs doesn't count as a victory, than you're saying that the Necrons can never win, seeing as everything was once theirs.

yes but I equate that to worlds taken by force from the Imperium, not worlds where one day you wake up to find some other species has been living on your world for millenia.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:


yes but I equate that to worlds taken by force from the Imperium, not worlds where one day you wake up to find some other species has been living on your world for millenia.

In both cases the worlds were once theirs, and they're retaking it, and in many cases Tomb Worlds are destroyed or damaged, in which case the worlds are lost by false.

yes but I repeat i'm talking in terms of war, if a planet is taken without battle its just an acquisition not a conquest.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Asterios wrote:


yes but I repeat i'm talking in terms of war, if a planet is taken without battle its just an acquisition not a conquest.

So? Your argument was that many Imperial victories weren't really victories because they were just reclaiming worlds, not conquering new ones. All worlds the Necrons conquer are just being reclaimed, so by your logic, the Necrons can never win. The way they originally lost the planet is irrelevant.

if they are reconquering their world, then yes, but only if the world was lost in battle, retaking a world lost in battle is a hollow victory at best since it indicates you lost it in battle so failed, so a minus one for losing the planet in battle and a plus one for taking the planet back, leaves you even.

as to the Necrons, well you snooze you lose.