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So as i said it before possibly just make shredders large blast. You don't exactly have to deep strike them as the one foot of movement plus the foot long range of large blast would be nice on some scourge.

With the blaster maybe some would disagree but i think they should change it from Assault to Rapid Fire so if you're super close (esp. with scourge) you get to Double Tap the blasters which would actually be really nice in some situations esp. considering things like Wulfen. Once again this would probably benefit scourge most.

Give grenades to just about all squads. I can understand maybe leaving it out for certain crazier units like beasts (they are beasts after all), possibly mandrakes (though give them an equivalent to grenades maybe) and grotesques (too crazy). That said even wracks deserve grenades.

If you are going to keep phantasm and tormentor grenades doing the same thing at least add some negative modifiers to them like -2 or -4 to leadership in addition to the leadership check and if failed take casualties.

Make wyches also have a 5+ invulnerable save at all times. Reavers should also have a 5+ inv. at all times and maybe a 4+ inv. in combat (or a 4+ and 3+) to represent their maneuverability considering they're on bikes and probably are better at dodging than wyches. If nothing else just give reavers a 4+ inv. save like wyches.

Maybe just give a purpose to hellions other than as a showcase model. Perhaps they could use the durability of invulnerable saves the most or at least a massive points drop or even stealth and infiltrate. Maybe 10 pts per model and make wyches 8 pts. Depending on what you give them of course.

Make flickerfields available on all vehicles again and possible a better version on heavier vehicles like ravagers.

For god's sake make the void raven into a stealth bomber like it should be. It should be infinitely harder to hit or wound than it is. Perhaps allow it to dodge some shots completely on a different roll. Maybe add negative modifiers to people attacking it. Do anything at all to make it harder to hit and/or kill. The opening on the void raven suggests it's hard to spot and confuses spotting systems. Perhaps make skyfire not work against it. Just anything to make it better.

Add disintegrator cannons to infantry. Probably still better on vehicles but the choice is nice enough. If that can't be done at least make a rapid fire or assault weapon variant (probably assault 2 or 3 and 18" range but all the same stats besides) that at least scourge can use.

Perhaps add more rending options to the dark eldar at least on covens units or wych units. For the most part covens don't have much in the way of avoiding armor except the talos and those ossefactors but other options would be nice.

Add more pinning and sniper units to dark eldar. Dark eldar need more creepy, scary and similar stuff to scare the enemy. How we lack any sort of pinning weapon is beyond me.

We have lots of instant death but we lack any strength 10 or strength D weapons. Perhaps that's too much too ask for but maybe one of those gaps could be filled.

Give reavers more melee and slight shooting potential. Let reavers have disintegrators as cannons or carbines or something and then give them another 2 or 3 options other than the absolute go to cluster caltrops has become. The bikes need more to them and right now they don't have it other than just hammer of wrath vs some entrenched low tier enemies.

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I'm not saying we should get all this stuff but some of this stuff on the dark eldar would be extremely nice.

Shredders: Large Blast on a 12" range weapon, yeah I can see Trueborn taking out their own Venom with that.

Blasters: Just no. I like the fact that I can fire it and then charge, jsut reduce it from 15 to 10pts, there's nothing actually wrong with the weapon anyway.

Plasma Grenades definitely need a much wider availability.

Phantasm/Torment Grenade Launchers: The army already has a lot of options for leadership debuffs, it just needs the stupid restriction of not working against ATSKNF removed, because there's no point to a weapon that doesn't affect half the armies in the game.

Wyches need a lot of changes, just giving them a permenant 5++ would be a start but still wouldn't be enough to make them a usable option. Reavers have Skilled Rider, they don't really need an invuln.

Hellions are like Wyches and need a lot of changes.

Yes, every vehicle should have access to the Flickerfield again. We don't really need a better invuln for Ravagers though, Craftworld and Dark Eldar are pretty unique in that they have access to invulns on vehicles in the first place.

Voidraven needs it's armour 11 back, having it taken our by Bolters is rediculous. I personally think it should have Stealth and ignore Interceptor.

It's strange how Eldar plasma weapons can only be mounted on vehicles/MC's, they have no access to infantry versions of the Starcannon or Disintegrator. Eldar get around this with their Gauardian Platforms, I'm not sure an equivelant would really fit with the Dark Eldar ethos.

Covens already have the Scissorhands (Poison, Rending) so it's not a problem there, I'd like to see Wyches gain seudo Rending though.

Lack of Pinning and Sniper isn't such a problem for me.

Count me in the camp that wants the Void Lance/Mine to be Strength D, would make the Voidraven worth it's points.

I'd certainly like to see the Splinter Rifle switched to a splinter pod on the Reaver Jetbike, why we should be the only faction that doesn't have twin linked weapons on our bikes as standard is beyond me. Remember though that Reavers are Wych Cult units, making them overly shooty doesn't make sense. Reavers are pretty damned good though, there's not much need to change things with them.

I agree with some of that and disagree with some of that.

Shredder:
We had a whole shredder thread not too long ago. Making it a large blast would help, but you may want to look at some of the suggestions we came up with over there. I think most of the people in the thread ended up leaning towards some sort of template version of the shredder to make it a relatively aggressive, assaulty option that gives the army some ignores cover.

Blasters:
I really don't feel that rapid fire represents them well at all. Every variant of the blaster (dark/bright lance, blast pistol, void lance) is a single-shot weapon. The idea is that they're the pinnacle of eldar "finesse" technology. Rather than drowning the enemy in rays of energy, you take aim, hit them with a weapon made of light (or whatever darklight is supposed to be made of), and tear through the target regardless of its armor. I usually lean towards giving them AP1 (to reflect more precise shots that burrow deeper into critical systems) and a rule that lets them inflict d3 hull points (or just 2 hull points) rather than 1 so that they can partially keep up with high volume of fire weapons. No need to hull point the enemy out with allied scatter lasers if you can do more hull points per blaster and have a better chance of exploding the target.

Agreed on grenades. I'd really be okay with the 5th edition method of simply giving a character a grenade launcher and letting it benefit the entire squad, but simply giving more units grenades is fine too. Dark eldar forces are generally wealthy and well-trained. They should be able to bring a few grenades on a raid.

Phantasm and Torment launchers:
These don't really need a built-in leadership penalty. You can already get that easily with corsair/harlequin/coven/craftworld allies or the armor of misery. Phantasms and torments work reasonably well for their points *when they work at all.* The real problem with this option is that so many units in the game are immune to them. Just take off the part where fearless/atsknf enemies are immune to them. It makes it so you aren't wasting points if you take them in an all-comers list, and it becomes a decent partner for a raider's disintegrator or an okay upgrade for some wyches or warriors that want to thin the enemy out a bit more. Also, make them provide their squad with assault grenades again.

Wyches:
Are we talking about a 5++ on top of their assault phase 4++? I'd be fine with that, but I really feel that people overemphasize wyches' problems with overwatch and enemy shooting. True, they give up points worth of casualties to those thing more easily than most, but they're cheap enough (or in raiders often enough) to absorb a couple casualties. The problem I always have with my wyches is that they don't hit hard enough to win melee, and they no longer have options (old wych weapons, 4+ FNP from a pain token, etc.) to be effective tarpits. My wyches get where they're going. They just don't do much once they're t here. I'd like to see their performance improved once they get there.

Hellions:
I'm not sure infiltrate really suits them (they already have deepstrike, and they fly around over terrain rather than sneaking around behind terrain), but bringing the Baron back and having him provide stealth would be handy. They could stand to have move through cover built in so you could protect yourself with cover on the way in, but even then, they'd just be some weird hodgepodge of beasts and poison dakka.



I kind of like the idea of making them troops (gives you a non-vehicular alternative to wyches/warriors that can punch and shoot reasonably hard while being mobile) or of bringing back the old stun claw. Having a way to yoink a psyker out of a deathstar or a super friends marine out of a guardsman blob would be very handy and give them a unique niche.

Flicker Fields:
I'd be fine with them returning as an option for other vehicles. If you create a "better" flicker field, however, you have to be careful not to overshadow (no pun intended) night shields.

Void Raven:
Mostly disagree with you on this one. As a flyer, you're already only hitting it on 6s, and opting to jink (though it reduces your firepower) does allow you to "dodge some shots completely on a different roll." Many options that have skyfire on them are sub-optimal in most situations (flakk missiles, eldar missile launchers, fortification guns, icarus guns on knights). So making your flyers immune to skyfire is akin to saying, "Hey, I know you spent points specifically to not have to snapshoot at flyers, but those points are basically wasted. Have fun not using the rule you paid for." I'm also not sure that durability is really the void raven's problem.

Like the razorwing, our flyers just don't really fit a niche in my eyes. What niche they kind of fill is usually done better by allies. The razorwing is basically just another way of getting anti-infantry weaponry. We have that in droves. The voidraven kind of wants to be a vehicle hunter, but it just doesn't hit hard enough for its points to really do that. Giving voidlances the same treatment as blasters I described above would help make them more of an AT unit, but even then, you'd be tempted to compare them to crimson hunters. Making them AV11 again might help. That way they'd be immune to bolters.

The concept of a "stealth bomber that you can't really shoot at effectively" is probably better represented by "off-screen bombardments" than by a model on the table. If it's going to exist on the table, you should be able to interact with it. To be fair, I'm not a huge fan of the flyer rules in general.

Disintegrators:
I'd be fine with this. I also think we should make haywire blasters and heat lances more accessible to warriors/trueborn. I wouldn't mind having more weapon options available on raiders/venoms either. Heatlance/blaster as an underslung venom weapon anybody?

Rending etc.:
I feel that rending has become a very common sight on the tabletop these days. It would make sense as something wyches get (perhaps as a squad-wide upgrade representing their cult's combat style), but that's really the only place I would put it. We don't have a lot of rending, but we have plenty of AP2 in the form of disintegrators, lances, incubi, and MCs.

Covens don't have a lot of rending, but I can't think of any reason they really should either. Their poisonous units are good at tossing enough wounds on things for rending to be irrelevant; you can just force those terminators to take saves until they drop. The MCs obviously don't need rending. The AT guns they have (on transports and the talos) are already lance, melta, or haywire, so rending has no point there. Many of their units have access to weapons that are insta-death on to-wound rolls of 6, so every armor save a wraith knight fails will inflict d3 wounds instead of 1 and ignore his FNP, partially making up for the lack of AP2.

There are lots of ways to improve dark eldar, but throwing rending on everything isn't really the way to go. I think I gave rending to blood brides that took a specific upgrade in my wych detachment thread a while back.

Pinning/Sniper:
Eh. Mixed feelings here. I'm not sure snipers make a ton of sense on an army that will usually be zipping along at high speeds. It's awfully hard to line up a long-ranged sniper shot at 100 MPH. Plus, we already have poison all over the place, so that part of the sniper rule isn't really needed. If you want the precision shot aspect of it, you can take the wrack formation that grants that (scalpel squadron?). So all that really leaves is the pseudo-rending. Which would be nice but probably not a game changer

Pinning isn't really a game changer in armies that have it. I agree, it would be fluffy for dark eldar to have more of it. Maybe toss it on terrofex weapons? There's precedent for something similar with the shadowseer's phantasm launcher. So basically, it would be fun and fluffy to have the option, but I don't think you'd find yourself winning more games because of it.


Reavers:
Guys on bikes should not be better at backflipping out of the way of incoming attacks than an enemy. I could see them having an invul save on the turn they charge in or something, but honestly, reavers are pretty okay. The splintermind podcast just interviewed a dark eldar player who makes great use of them. They're extremely fast AND agile (turbo boost/assault moves/hit & run), cluster caltrops hit reasonably hard, their poison dakka is comparable to warriors with splinter wracks, and they can take a high proportion of anti-tank weapons. Plus they have a 3+ jink that becomes 2+ with the right warlord trait or night fighting.

I don't think it's particularly fluffy to emphasize their shooting role, but I'm not opposed to having dark eldar shooty bikers of some sort either. Maybe keep reavers close to what they are but also add a FA option for "kabalite bikers" that can take heavy weapons. Sort of like corsair bikers. The trick here is to not accidentally create an off-brand scatter bike with all the balance problems those introduce.

Yeah agreed with some ideas and disagree with others.

As far as I'm concerned, Shredders should be monofilament flamers, with their points adjusted accordingly. Would give them a real niche in Dark Eldar forces that means they might actually be taken. Plus, it's nice and fluffy

Blasters are fine as is. Can balance the points if you must, but I feel that's sort of feeding into the power-bloat of other codices rather than actually fixing things.

Phantasm and Torment Launchers should affect models with ATSKNF/Fearless. Perhaps give those models a buff against them, but they still need to be effective.

Reavers are fine as they are as harassing Cluster Caltrop bombers with the occasional Heat Lance.

Wyches I definitely feel should be proper glass cannon units. They've got the glass part right (I think they're just as survivable as they should be), but the cannon part is missing. Count Adhemar over on the Dark City had the idea of giving Wyches Bladestorm, which would give them the CC punch that they're lacking at the moment (while meaning that they can't tear apart vehicles as they could if they had Rending). Wych weapons definitely need a light overhaul too. Hydra Gauntlets are useful, but the others sort of pale in comparison given Wyches' stats. Perhaps give Razorflails +2A instead of +1 for extra chance of pseudo-rending hits, and Shardnet and Impaler goes back to providing -1A to enemies (nice little buff to Lelith too).

I feel like the Incubi need a little bit of a buff as well. They're ok, but for the same points as Banshees they're lacking against a unit that's already considered sub-par. Minor change, but how about giving the Klaivex a wargear option that negates Overwatch? Banshees have it, and Autarchs can have it for a measly 2pts!

That would broaden their niche slightly to include assaulting flamer units/Cognis Ad Mech, or mincing through Tau. Plus, it would give you a genuine reason to take a Klaivex.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I feel like the Incubi need a little bit of a buff as well. They're ok, but for the same points as Banshees they're lacking against a unit that's already considered sub-par. Minor change, but how about giving the Klaivex a wargear option that negates Overwatch? Banshees have it, and Autarchs can have it for a measly 2pts!

That would broaden their niche slightly to include assaulting flamer units/Cognis Ad Mech, or mincing through Tau. Plus, it would give you a genuine reason to take a Klaivex.

I've made the argument before on the Dark City but equal points of Incubi will mulch Banshees in combat thanks the WS5 and the Klaivex going first with I6 and having Rampage. Assuming your not charging into cover that is.

I gather the old 3rd ed Tormentor Helm that Incubi used to have would drop their opponents to WS and I 1, I think I'd like to see that back more than just simply assault grenades or a Banshee Mask analogue.

Oh, and Banshee Masks are 5pts for an Autarch, not 2.

 Imateria wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I feel like the Incubi need a little bit of a buff as well. They're ok, but for the same points as Banshees they're lacking against a unit that's already considered sub-par. Minor change, but how about giving the Klaivex a wargear option that negates Overwatch? Banshees have it, and Autarchs can have it for a measly 2pts!

That would broaden their niche slightly to include assaulting flamer units/Cognis Ad Mech, or mincing through Tau. Plus, it would give you a genuine reason to take a Klaivex.

I've made the argument before on the Dark City but equal points of Incubi will mulch Banshees in combat thanks the WS5 and the Klaivex going first with I6 and having Rampage. Assuming your not charging into cover that is.

I gather the old 3rd ed Tormentor Helm that Incubi used to have would drop their opponents to WS and I 1, I think I'd like to see that back more than just simply assault grenades or a Banshee Mask analogue.

Oh, and Banshee Masks are 5pts for an Autarch, not 2.

Hmmm, so you're right. I wonder why Incubi are a little maligned then. Are people just expecting them to be assault terminators and treating them as such?

TBH, the old Tormentor Helm sounds a little OP! I'd love to have that back, but I'd be happy with the just dropping enemies to I1 when charged. That'd be powerful enough.

Agreed that a Banshee Mask analogue is a little lazy. Drat that it costs 5pts though. Must have missed that! Shall have to drop HWG from my Succubus because of that :(

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I feel like the Incubi need a little bit of a buff as well. They're ok, but for the same points as Banshees they're lacking against a unit that's already considered sub-par. Minor change, but how about giving the Klaivex a wargear option that negates Overwatch? Banshees have it, and Autarchs can have it for a measly 2pts!

That would broaden their niche slightly to include assaulting flamer units/Cognis Ad Mech, or mincing through Tau. Plus, it would give you a genuine reason to take a Klaivex.

I've made the argument before on the Dark City but equal points of Incubi will mulch Banshees in combat thanks the WS5 and the Klaivex going first with I6 and having Rampage. Assuming your not charging into cover that is.

I gather the old 3rd ed Tormentor Helm that Incubi used to have would drop their opponents to WS and I 1, I think I'd like to see that back more than just simply assault grenades or a Banshee Mask analogue.

Oh, and Banshee Masks are 5pts for an Autarch, not 2.

Hmmm, so you're right. I wonder why Incubi are a little maligned then. Are people just expecting them to be assault terminators and treating them as such?

TBH, the old Tormentor Helm sounds a little OP! I'd love to have that back, but I'd be happy with the just dropping enemies to I1 when charged. That'd be powerful enough.

Agreed that a Banshee Mask analogue is a little lazy. Drat that it costs 5pts though. Must have missed that! Shall have to drop HWG from my Succubus because of that :(

Incubi are 20ppm and have no assault grenades. Some people seem to think that people play on nothing but terrain heavy boards and that units are never out in the open, an obviously idiotic way of looking at things. Certainly if you charge Incubi against a unit kitted out for close combat in terrain they'll probably loose, but even going at I1 they'll slaughter a squad of tac marines. It's all about knowing what they can and can't do, in the open they'll kill anything short of Termies with storm shields, in terrain you have to be a bit more circumspect in choosing their targets but generally keeping to shooty units and staying away from dedicated close combat units is a good start.

Well I wouldn't suggest taking the old Tormentor Helm rules and using them straight off, they're 4 editions out of date for starters, but it does make for an interesting possibility.

To be honest the only time that overwatch really worries me is against something with plasma or the like, I have too many people around here who roll those jammy 6's for overwatch on the really lethal weapons! What were you going to run the Autarch with? If it's not with something like Incubi, Grotesques or a large squad of Striking Scorpions then I don't think you'll really need to bother with the mask.

Far as i can tell the good dark eldar close combat units (reavers, incubi and grotesques) actually work well when all taken. Reavers are good at assaulting horde armies in cover as well as some other units and doing some damage to vehicles if given cluster caltrops. Incubi can do ok vs horde but can kill anything short of termies with thunder hammers and storm shields (str 4 can be limiting however). Grotesques are just a wall of meat that can kill most things that don't have lots of wounds and really good armor saves. They might even put the fear into monsters even though rampage makes them best against other things.

If i had to say 2 things dark eldar needs most is a poisoned or fleshbane weapon that goes through armor and anti-tank. Blasters can probably do that just fine but we may need something that can put the fear into riptides or stormsurge reliably. Riptides with their invulnerable with stim injector (feel no pain) is a nasty combo esp. with 2+ armor. I can't speak volumes enough about how stupidly good tau are against dark eldar (or at least non-covens units). Even with heavy melee the fact riptides can jump is just insanely stupid.

Talos destroy Riptides with ease, 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 3's wounding on 3's. If you take the chain flails thats re-rolls to wound, and with Ichor Injectors that Fleshbane and Instant Death on 6's. Sure the Riptide can be faster with it's JSJ but I find you can actually hem it back against it's own lines and then tear them appart in combat where they only hit back and wound on 5's.

The Talos is also a massive bullet sponge, against Tau they are a must take due to them not needing cover and T7 with FnP and a squad of 3 has enough poison fire to be a problem at range as well.

 Imateria wrote:

Spoiler:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I feel like the Incubi need a little bit of a buff as well. They're ok, but for the same points as Banshees they're lacking against a unit that's already considered sub-par. Minor change, but how about giving the Klaivex a wargear option that negates Overwatch? Banshees have it, and Autarchs can have it for a measly 2pts!

That would broaden their niche slightly to include assaulting flamer units/Cognis Ad Mech, or mincing through Tau. Plus, it would give you a genuine reason to take a Klaivex.

I've made the argument before on the Dark City but equal points of Incubi will mulch Banshees in combat thanks the WS5 and the Klaivex going first with I6 and having Rampage. Assuming your not charging into cover that is.

I gather the old 3rd ed Tormentor Helm that Incubi used to have would drop their opponents to WS and I 1, I think I'd like to see that back more than just simply assault grenades or a Banshee Mask analogue.

Oh, and Banshee Masks are 5pts for an Autarch, not 2.

Hmmm, so you're right. I wonder why Incubi are a little maligned then. Are people just expecting them to be assault terminators and treating them as such?

TBH, the old Tormentor Helm sounds a little OP! I'd love to have that back, but I'd be happy with the just dropping enemies to I1 when charged. That'd be powerful enough.

Agreed that a Banshee Mask analogue is a little lazy. Drat that it costs 5pts though. Must have missed that! Shall have to drop HWG from my Succubus because of that :(

Incubi are 20ppm and have no assault grenades. Some people seem to think that people play on nothing but terrain heavy boards and that units are never out in the open, an obviously idiotic way of looking at things. Certainly if you charge Incubi against a unit kitted out for close combat in terrain they'll probably loose, but even going at I1 they'll slaughter a squad of tac marines. It's all about knowing what they can and can't do, in the open they'll kill anything short of Termies with storm shields, in terrain you have to be a bit more circumspect in choosing their targets but generally keeping to shooty units and staying away from dedicated close combat units is a good start.

Well I wouldn't suggest taking the old Tormentor Helm rules and using them straight off, they're 4 editions out of date for starters, but it does make for an interesting possibility.

To be honest the only time that overwatch really worries me is against something with plasma or the like, I have too many people around here who roll those jammy 6's for overwatch on the really lethal weapons! What were you going to run the Autarch with? If it's not with something like Incubi, Grotesques or a large squad of Striking Scorpions then I don't think you'll really need to bother with the mask.

Yeah I did wonder if that was the case. People trying to use them for something that they're not kitted out to deal with. I suppose that the issue is that they're competing with Grotesques which are just as killy and a lot tougher. I feel like their niche could do with expanding a little to make them a more competitive choice with the Covens' creations. Perhaps that's only a perception. Shall have to play more games to test that out...

Yeah I've got two builds for my Autarch. The first is on a bike in a sizeable blob of Reavers (an added fusion gun to pop a transport, letting the Reavers assault what's inside, and a Laser Lance in case the Fusion Gun doesn't do the trick). The second is in a Grotesquerie Grot Ball. 4 Grots in a Raider with a Haemi and Autarch with a Power Axe and Banshee Mask (for AP2), accompanied by a second squad of 4 Grots with a Farseer and a Succubus with Archite Glaive and Armour of Misery (for freakshow psychic shrieking and more AP2).

Probably massively too spendy from competitive work, but it's a fun little ball of death can't think of a great deal that they couldn't deal with between them.

Well the AP2 of the Klaives gives them a niche separate from Gortesques, they're much better at dealing with good armour saves so a good size squad of Marines, Tau battle suits, Aspect Warriors and Terminators that only have a 5+ invuln are all fair game. The thing with Grotesques is that though they wont get through some things as fast as Incubi, they can be thrown at just about anything and hold their own, you have to be a little more circumspect with Incubi due to the lack of Assault Grenades and that they can't take much of a hit back.

I'd run the Autarch on the bike in that set up, the Power Axe's Unweildy makes it a bad choice for an Autarch, like the Incubi they can't take a hit and giving up the I6 is asking for trouble if you get challenged out. Unfortunately quality close combat weapons like the Diresword, Scorpion Claw, Executioner and Star Lance are not available to the Autarch.

It was interesting reading Jimsolo's account of using his Freakshow list in a tournement, he got a lot of use out of running a Corsair Void Dreamer with a large group of Grotesques, with the Fleshbane on the Witchstaff being usefull in dishing out damage to GMC's. The closest eguivelant to that in the Craftworlds codex is the Spirit Seer, and the Runes of Battle look like they'd be quite usefull with Grotesques.

 Imateria wrote:
Well the AP2 of the Klaives gives them a niche separate from Gortesques, they're much better at dealing with good armour saves so a good size squad of Marines, Tau battle suits, Aspect Warriors and Terminators that only have a 5+ invuln are all fair game. The thing with Grotesques is that though they wont get through some things as fast as Incubi, they can be thrown at just about anything and hold their own, you have to be a little more circumspect with Incubi due to the lack of Assault Grenades and that they can't take much of a hit back.

I'd run the Autarch on the bike in that set up, the Power Axe's Unweildy makes it a bad choice for an Autarch, like the Incubi they can't take a hit and giving up the I6 is asking for trouble if you get challenged out. Unfortunately quality close combat weapons like the Diresword, Scorpion Claw, Executioner and Star Lance are not available to the Autarch.

It was interesting reading Jimsolo's account of using his Freakshow list in a tournement, he got a lot of use out of running a Corsair Void Dreamer with a large group of Grotesques, with the Fleshbane on the Witchstaff being usefull in dishing out damage to GMC's. The closest eguivelant to that in the Craftworlds codex is the Spirit Seer, and the Runes of Battle look like they'd be quite usefull with Grotesques.

The idea with the Power Axe is that if the Autarch gets challenged out, the Haemi can jump in the way (and the Grots absorb the hits) while the Autarch dismantles anything that's left after the Grots have finished their work. Same thing could be accomplished with an Aberration, but given that a Haemi is required for the Grotesquerie he gets the job plus, with his initiative and a scissorhand he might just scratch them before he gets krumped by a powerfist.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Well the AP2 of the Klaives gives them a niche separate from Gortesques, they're much better at dealing with good armour saves so a good size squad of Marines, Tau battle suits, Aspect Warriors and Terminators that only have a 5+ invuln are all fair game. The thing with Grotesques is that though they wont get through some things as fast as Incubi, they can be thrown at just about anything and hold their own, you have to be a little more circumspect with Incubi due to the lack of Assault Grenades and that they can't take much of a hit back.

I'd run the Autarch on the bike in that set up, the Power Axe's Unweildy makes it a bad choice for an Autarch, like the Incubi they can't take a hit and giving up the I6 is asking for trouble if you get challenged out. Unfortunately quality close combat weapons like the Diresword, Scorpion Claw, Executioner and Star Lance are not available to the Autarch.

It was interesting reading Jimsolo's account of using his Freakshow list in a tournement, he got a lot of use out of running a Corsair Void Dreamer with a large group of Grotesques, with the Fleshbane on the Witchstaff being usefull in dishing out damage to GMC's. The closest eguivelant to that in the Craftworlds codex is the Spirit Seer, and the Runes of Battle look like they'd be quite usefull with Grotesques.

The idea with the Power Axe is that if the Autarch gets challenged out, the Haemi can jump in the way (and the Grots absorb the hits) while the Autarch dismantles anything that's left after the Grots have finished their work. Same thing could be accomplished with an Aberration, but given that a Haemi is required for the Grotesquerie he gets the job plus, with his initiative and a scissorhand he might just scratch them before he gets krumped by a powerfist.

A shard of anaris can also work nicely, though it is quite expensive. Personally, I've been running some of my craftworlders with power mauls (on those rare units who can take them) as the high strength at initiative can force your opponent to roll enough saves to drown under quantity rather than quality. Solid tactic with the haemonculus/abberation though.

Regarding incubi VS grotesques, I love both, but I see them as very different tools. The grotesques are better against hordes and MCs, are significantly more durable against most things, and don't care quite as much about having their initiative lowered when I charge through terrain. They're more well-rounded. They're also half again as expensive as an incubus and come with some pretty severe weaknesses. Leadership-based attacks can murder them, and they crumple surprisingly fast against any strength 10 you happen to come across. They need a baby sitter unless they're part of a grotesquerie (which is expensive and has a haemonculus "tax"), and their lack of fleet means you'll occassionally flub a charge.

Incubi by comparison usually don't hit as hard, but you can take 3ish incubi for every 2 grotesques. They'll be wounded more often, but they can stack armor saves on top of their feel no pain to balance it out. They don't need a baby sitter, and they aren't all that scared of psychic shriek and similar abilities. Plus fleet means they have a slightly easier time getting around and making charges after their transport dies.

Grotesques make it into my competitive dark eldar/eldar lists, but incubi have their place.

Yeah I was put off by the Shard by its price. I've thought about Power Mauls as well. Very nice to have S5 Eldar! Wish Archons still had the option for them. Is it still valuable in a squad full of S5 Grotesques though? Seems like it's AP that they're missing, although more S5 attacks probably wouldn't go amiss.

Good points about Incubi vs Grots. If you're going up against a Telepathy-heavy army your Grots are toast!

With Psychic Shriek, do you test against an individual model's leadership, or the highest in the squad?

I don't rate the Shard of Anaris at all, AP- most of the time is just not good, especially when it costs 40pts. Sure, Fleshbane and Instant Death in challenges is nice but you're rellying on Rending so much for such an expensive weapon. Personally I prefer the Firesabre, at least it's AP3. It's a shame that the best weapon for a character like that, the Void Sabre, is only available on the Corsair Prince, and Corsairs have no other close combat units worth a damn.

Unless a special rule forces otherwise, you always use the highest Leadership value in a squad.

I don't really see the Haemonculus as much of a tax, give him Scissorhands for 10pts and he has Poison 4+ and Rending, on a WS5 model with 4 attacks thats pretty good. Give him Sindriq's Sump for another 10pts and he can gain Fleet, It Will Not Die, Rampage or something else that can't I remember right now. They've done good work for me and are always useful.

Yeah Void Sabres on an Autarch or an Archon would be great, although Agonisers are a solid enough weapon. Especially if you can get some soultraps off.

Yeah I don't see a Haemi as a tax either. Especially as he's T4 on top of all of that lot. He's not chapter master smashf*cker, but he's also a lot fewer points...

For sub 100pts he's pretty excellent.